by Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:45 pm
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:28 pm
by Cetacea » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:58 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Let us thank Beijing and Xi Jinping for being great propagandists for Tsai Ing-wen's tough on China stance. I would have thought she would lose to Beijing-friendly Han Kuo-yu - a guy who was "formerly" supportive of one country, two systems being implemented in Taiwan - had it not been for her strong reactions to the Hong Kong protests, which served as proof that 1C2S does not work.
by Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:07 pm
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:13 pm
Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?
by Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:15 pm
Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?
by The New California Republic » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:16 pm
by Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:17 pm
The New California Republic wrote:I must admit that I know relatively little about the politics of Taiwan, other than the vote usually gets polarised between the pro-independence and pro-Beijing parties, but even that might be wrong.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:19 pm
Shrillland wrote:The New California Republic wrote:I must admit that I know relatively little about the politics of Taiwan, other than the vote usually gets polarised between the pro-independence and pro-Beijing parties, but even that might be wrong.
No, that's mostly correct in essentials, though the KMT and DPP are different in other ways as well, the DPP's centre-left while the KMT's centre-right, for example, which is another reason Tsai had so much of a challenge getting the nomination this time around, her work week and pension reforms didn't make any fans among the DPP base.
by Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:32 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?
Nobody actually thinks they can reconquer China. The Kuomintang probably believe in unification in one way or another, but the "dream" of a unified ROC died with the generalissimo, his son, and with the Cold War.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:16 pm
Nakena wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:Nobody actually thinks they can reconquer China. The Kuomintang probably believe in unification in one way or another, but the "dream" of a unified ROC died with the generalissimo, his son, and with the Cold War.
It's not about unification or reconquest, both are unlikely at the moment, but keeping a chinese state and nation alive that isn't this totalitarian monstrosity of PRC. Even if this is just limited to the island of Taiwan and a few spots here and there.
by Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:17 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Nakena wrote:
It's not about unification or reconquest, both are unlikely at the moment, but keeping a chinese state and nation alive that isn't this totalitarian monstrosity of PRC. Even if this is just limited to the island of Taiwan and a few spots here and there.
That's not what Taiwan wants, though. If the threat of a PRC invasion wasn't so imminent they would have declared the Republic of Taiwan by now. Forcing some misplaced sense of nationalism onto people who haven't set foot on China for over half a century is very misguided.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 pm
Nakena wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:That's not what Taiwan wants, though. If the threat of a PRC invasion wasn't so imminent they would have declared the Republic of Taiwan by now. Forcing some misplaced sense of nationalism onto people who haven't set foot on China for over half a century is very misguided.
It's not about nationalism its about freedom from totalitarism.
by Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:28 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Nakena wrote:
It's not about nationalism its about freedom from totalitarism.
That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.
by Outer Sparta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:31 pm
Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?
by Cetacea » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:36 pm
Nakena wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.
Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:52 pm
Nakena wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.
Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.
by Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm
Pasong Tirad wrote:Nakena wrote:
Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.
It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.
Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.
Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.
by Outer Sparta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:58 pm
Shrillland wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.
Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.
Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.
It would also be fruitless because the PRC would be forced to act, and they have the means to do so. The only thing that stops that scenario is the Western World coming to Taiwan's defence, and with how the West is faring right now, even that has a shade of doubt about it.
by Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:00 pm
Shrillland wrote:Pasong Tirad wrote:It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.
Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.
Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.
It would also be fruitless because the PRC would be forced to act, and they have the means to do so. The only thing that stops that scenario is the Western World coming to Taiwan's defence, and with how the West is faring right now, even that has a shade of doubt about it.
by Bienenhalde » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:51 pm
by Cetacea » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:46 am
Bienenhalde wrote:Taiwan was a part of China, just like Hong Kong. Except it was colonized by the Japanese instead of the British.
by Shrillland » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:28 pm
by Outer Sparta » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:27 pm
Cetacea wrote:Bienenhalde wrote:Taiwan was a part of China, just like Hong Kong. Except it was colonized by the Japanese instead of the British.
No Taiwan wasnt part of China.
Prior to the 16th Century Taiwan was occupied by Indigenous tribes and notably by the indigenous 'Kingdom of Dadu'. There was contact with Hakka fishermen, but no other chinese presence. There were also Japanese pirates in the area.
It was the Dutch arriving in 1624, who established Fort Zeelandia on the coast Tayouan and started to import labourers from Fujian, establishing a Chinese population of around 1500.
Koxinga fled to the Island in 1662 bringing Ming Refugees. Later the Ming rebels were conquered by the Qing and Chinese invasion of Taiwan began, displacing the indigenous peoples.
Then you get the Japanese invasion, which ended in WW2 when the Allied Forces handed Taiwan over to the RoC
So yes theres a significant Chinese population but Taiwan is not China
by Kowani » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:23 pm
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