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Democracy: Made in Taiwan(An Election Thread)

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Who do you support?

Tsai Ing-wen and William Lai(DPP)
16
70%
Han Kuo-yu and Simon Chang(KMT)
7
30%
 
Total votes : 23

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Shrillland
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Democracy: Made in Taiwan(An Election Thread)

Postby Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 4:45 pm

Thankfully, with all of Europe seemingly voting all at once, 2020 is looking to be fairly quiet on the international polling arena, but there are a few exceptions. The first one will be on Saturday, January 11, when Taiwan goes to the polls in their general election while the PRC, ostensibly in charge, hems and haws about how awful these rebels are who claim to be the real China and such. Even so, unification is less of an issue this time around since even the KMT aren't fans of working with Xi Jinping. This election, for both the Executive and Legislative Yuans, will be more focused on domestic issues such as the economy, though regional issues such as North Korea and the Spratly Islands disputes will invariably come up as they have through the year.

The major parties had their primaries in June, and there are only two major candidates, so let's see how this vote will go. The Presidential vote is a simple FPTP affair, while the Legislative Yuan has 73 FPTP constituency seats, 34 closed-list PR seats nationwide, and 6 from two special aboriginal constituencies using SNTV. Now to meet the candidates.

President Tsai Ing-wen and William Lai of the Democratic Progressive Party(DPP)

Tsai has had an eventful first term to say the least. Initially, her tougher stance on the PRC was a popular one, but her popularity waned throughout her first term thanks to her support of ending nuclear power and legalising same-sex marriage, both proposals that were soundly defeated in a 2018 national referendum that accompanied municipal votes, alongside her reform of labour laws that saw seven national holidays stricken from the calendar, increased the amount of required work hours, and saw overtime pay significantly reduced, and a pension reform that raised the retirement age to 60(from 55), made significant decreases in interest payments among civil servants(including teachers and armed forces veterans), and even suspended pensions for retirees who found private sector work(a provision that was later ruled unconstitutional).

At those same municipal votes, the centre-left DPP lost a lot of their county and city seats, leading to Tsai resigning from the party leadership and her Premier, William Lai, announcing a primary challenge against her. It was the first major primary challenge for a sitting president in Taiwanese history, and it was one that Tsai did manage to win with 36% of the vote to Lai's 25%. Even so, Tsai's VP, Chen Chien-jen, has decided not to run alongside her, and no running mate has yet been chosen.

Tsai's main aim, and the one that's brought her back from the brink and leading in the polls, is to maintain an independent Taiwan, and she's also been openly supportive of the Hong Kong protests. I'll have more of her platform as the campaign progresses(no one seems to have policy profiles yet for either of them).

Han Kuo-yu and Simon Chang of the Kuomintang(KMT)

The KMT gained most of the seats in the municipal vote last year, and their primary in July was more eventful than even the DPP's. Kaohsiung Mayor and former legislator Han Kuo-yu was chosen with 45% of the vote in a crowded field alongside Foxconn founder and former CEO Terry Gou and New Taipei City Mayor Eric Chu among others. Just a couple of days before this post(November 10), Han chose former Premier and former Google Asia executive Simon Chang to be his running mate. As mayor of Kaoshiung, Han's main issues have been economic improvement and improved relations with the mainland. In 2018, he made agreements with four mainland cities(including Hong Kong) to sell NT$5 billion(US$167 million) worth of agricultural equipment. He also has a strong backing among working-class voters despite the KMT's centre-right stance. Even so, he's polling 12 points behind Tsai at the moment. Like before, the policy profile's will come as they are made available.

And of course, there are other smaller parties in the Legisative Yuan, but Taiwan is effectively a two-party state. So, who do you support, NSG?

For me, I'm not a fan of either candidate at the moment, though I'll go for Tsai somewhat reluctantly. Tsai is tough on the mainland without being too jingoistic, while Han's accommodating stances aren't necessarily good in the long-term as other major nations are going to be tougher on China in the coming years. On domestic issues, I understand why many were opposed to Tsai's pension reforms, but 60 does seem like a reasonable age for people who live as long as the Taiwanese often get to(they have one of the highest life expectancies in the world), though her work week reform can now mean people can be required to work 12 days non-stop.
Last edited by Shrillland on Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:28 pm

Let us thank Beijing and Xi Jinping for being great propagandists for Tsai Ing-wen's tough on China stance. I would have thought she would lose to Beijing-friendly Han Kuo-yu - a guy who was "formerly" supportive of one country, two systems being implemented in Taiwan - had it not been for her strong reactions to the Hong Kong protests, which served as proof that 1C2S does not work.

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Postby Cetacea » Mon Nov 11, 2019 5:58 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:Let us thank Beijing and Xi Jinping for being great propagandists for Tsai Ing-wen's tough on China stance. I would have thought she would lose to Beijing-friendly Han Kuo-yu - a guy who was "formerly" supportive of one country, two systems being implemented in Taiwan - had it not been for her strong reactions to the Hong Kong protests, which served as proof that 1C2S does not work.


This, the development of the Hong Kong situation is going to have a major bearing on things and so far it looks like they will boost the appeal of Tsai and greater shift to independence.

Which is great imho

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Postby Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:07 pm

What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?

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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:13 pm

Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?

Nobody actually thinks they can reconquer China. The Kuomintang probably believe in unification in one way or another, but the "dream" of a unified ROC died with the generalissimo, his son, and with the Cold War.

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Postby Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:15 pm

Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?


Closest there is would have to be the New Party, they have Yang Shih-kuang running, but there's no chance of them even getting a seat in the LY: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Party_(Taiwan)
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Postby The New California Republic » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:16 pm

I must admit that I know relatively little about the politics of Taiwan, other than the vote usually gets polarised between the pro-independence and pro-Beijing parties, but even that might be wrong. :meh:
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Postby Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:17 pm

The New California Republic wrote:I must admit that I know relatively little about the politics of Taiwan, other than the vote usually gets polarised between the pro-independence and pro-Beijing parties, but even that might be wrong. :meh:


No, that's mostly correct in essentials, though the KMT and DPP are different in other ways as well, the DPP's centre-left while the KMT's centre-right, for example, which is another reason Tsai had so much of a challenge getting the nomination this time around, her work week and pension reforms didn't make any fans among the DPP base.
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:19 pm

Shrillland wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I must admit that I know relatively little about the politics of Taiwan, other than the vote usually gets polarised between the pro-independence and pro-Beijing parties, but even that might be wrong. :meh:


No, that's mostly correct in essentials, though the KMT and DPP are different in other ways as well, the DPP's centre-left while the KMT's centre-right, for example, which is another reason Tsai had so much of a challenge getting the nomination this time around, her work week and pension reforms didn't make any fans among the DPP base.

She was lucky Xi Jinping was there to rescue her flagging campaign. :p

Han Kuo-yu's friendly ties with the PRC definitely won't be helping him.

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Postby Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:32 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?

Nobody actually thinks they can reconquer China. The Kuomintang probably believe in unification in one way or another, but the "dream" of a unified ROC died with the generalissimo, his son, and with the Cold War.


It's not about unification or reconquest, both are unlikely at the moment, but keeping a chinese state and nation alive that isn't this totalitarian monstrosity of PRC. Even if this is just limited to the island of Taiwan and a few spots here and there.
Last edited by Nakena on Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:16 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:Nobody actually thinks they can reconquer China. The Kuomintang probably believe in unification in one way or another, but the "dream" of a unified ROC died with the generalissimo, his son, and with the Cold War.


It's not about unification or reconquest, both are unlikely at the moment, but keeping a chinese state and nation alive that isn't this totalitarian monstrosity of PRC. Even if this is just limited to the island of Taiwan and a few spots here and there.

That's not what Taiwan wants, though. If the threat of a PRC invasion wasn't so imminent they would have declared the Republic of Taiwan by now. Forcing some misplaced sense of nationalism onto people who haven't set foot on China for over half a century is very misguided.

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Postby Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:17 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
It's not about unification or reconquest, both are unlikely at the moment, but keeping a chinese state and nation alive that isn't this totalitarian monstrosity of PRC. Even if this is just limited to the island of Taiwan and a few spots here and there.

That's not what Taiwan wants, though. If the threat of a PRC invasion wasn't so imminent they would have declared the Republic of Taiwan by now. Forcing some misplaced sense of nationalism onto people who haven't set foot on China for over half a century is very misguided.


It's not about nationalism its about freedom from totalitarism.

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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:19 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:That's not what Taiwan wants, though. If the threat of a PRC invasion wasn't so imminent they would have declared the Republic of Taiwan by now. Forcing some misplaced sense of nationalism onto people who haven't set foot on China for over half a century is very misguided.


It's not about nationalism its about freedom from totalitarism.

That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.

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Postby Nakena » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:28 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
It's not about nationalism its about freedom from totalitarism.

That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.


Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.

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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:31 pm

Nakena wrote:What is the most anti-communist party in the ROC that doesnt falls for "Taiwan Independence" but openly is pro-reconquest of the mainland or at the least keeping the spirit of General Chiang Kai-shek alive?

Well, the Kuomintang is still here, with the same party symbol and everything. Although today's Taiwan is different than 50 years ago, they would be the closest to your category, although nobody is keen to support conquest of mainland since the PRC is a superpower.
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Postby Cetacea » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:36 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.


Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.


The reality is Taiwan isnt China and unlike HK it never ever was, Its not just the totalitarianism of PRC either, afterall the KMT was totalitarian enough on its own. But Taiwan has its own identity and really nobody born since the 80s actually wants to be China
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:52 pm

Nakena wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:That conversation shouldn't include a people who want no part of it. Taiwan just wants to go its own way. That's why supporting the DPP's push for Taiwanization is so important. You want freedom from totalitarianism? Great. So do they, which is why they don't increasingly don't want to do anything with Beijing.


Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.

It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.

Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.

Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.

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Postby Shrillland » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:54 pm

Pasong Tirad wrote:
Nakena wrote:
Taiwanization sounds fairly nationalistic to me, and it's also surrendering and giving up to the demand of the PRC to be the one and only chinese state and defining nation. I fully understand why they dont want have to do anything with the Beijing Clique same way as HK doesnt wants to. But becoming "Taiwan" isnt the option, they could be just be a second chinese state like theres two Koreas or like there were two Germanys. Theres many ways short of handing a totalitarian monstrosity a victory and giving up.

It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.

Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.

Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.


It would also be fruitless because the PRC would be forced to act, and they have the means to do so. The only thing that stops that scenario is the Western World coming to Taiwan's defence, and with how the West is faring right now, even that has a shade of doubt about it.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:58 pm

Shrillland wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.

Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.

Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.


It would also be fruitless because the PRC would be forced to act, and they have the means to do so. The only thing that stops that scenario is the Western World coming to Taiwan's defence, and with how the West is faring right now, even that has a shade of doubt about it.

The US would absolutely rush to Taiwan's defense if they had to pick sides, but since the US relies on Chinese trade, that won't be possible. In a world where the PRC isn't a superpower and doesn't threaten US economic interests, the US will rush to support Taiwan and give them a huge package of military aid.
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:00 pm

Shrillland wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:It's Taiwanese nationalism. Very different and much more inclusive than the nationalism peddled by the CCP. It's far from a surrender. It absolutely is not a surrender. A surrender would be to continue talking about "one China" in tne way the PRC wants the rest of the world to. A surrender would be to reunify with Beijing under either direct rule or 1C2S.

Taiwanese independence would never be considered a victory as China believes Taiwan to be integral Chinese clay - it's not, it's never been controlled by the PRC and God willing it never will be.

Becoming Taiwan is most definitely an option - it's an option that's being stifled by Beijing under threat of invasion. You assume a declaration of independence would mean victory for Beijing. It's not. It's a loss for them as it would mean their stranglehold over the region is weakening.


It would also be fruitless because the PRC would be forced to act, and they have the means to do so. The only thing that stops that scenario is the Western World coming to Taiwan's defence, and with how the West is faring right now, even that has a shade of doubt about it.

And I understand that point. But to say that trying to push for Taiwanization is somehow handing Beijing a victory feels like a wrong analysis of the matter. The status quo is shaky but fine for now, but to declare Taiwan as a second China is no more a victory than to hand Xi the keys to Taipei.

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Postby Bienenhalde » Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:51 pm

Taiwan was a part of China, just like Hong Kong. Except it was colonized by the Japanese instead of the British.

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Postby Cetacea » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:46 am

Bienenhalde wrote:Taiwan was a part of China, just like Hong Kong. Except it was colonized by the Japanese instead of the British.


No Taiwan wasnt part of China.

Prior to the 16th Century Taiwan was occupied by Indigenous tribes and notably by the indigenous 'Kingdom of Dadu'. There was contact with Hakka fishermen, but no other chinese presence. There were also Japanese pirates in the area.

It was the Dutch arriving in 1624, who established Fort Zeelandia on the coast Tayouan and started to import labourers from Fujian, establishing a Chinese population of around 1500.

Koxinga fled to the Island in 1662 bringing Ming Refugees. Later the Ming rebels were conquered by the Qing and Chinese invasion of Taiwan began, displacing the indigenous peoples.

Then you get the Japanese invasion, which ended in WW2 when the Allied Forces handed Taiwan over to the RoC

So yes theres a significant Chinese population but Taiwan is not China

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Postby Shrillland » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:28 pm

We now have a third party candidate(I'll going to wait for the polls before adding him to our poll). James Soong of the Centre-right People First Party, former Governor of Taiwan Province and GIO director, has entered the race as has long been expected, no news of a running mate yet: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3037598/veteran-taiwan-politician-james-soong-seek-presidency-blow
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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed Nov 13, 2019 9:27 pm

Cetacea wrote:
Bienenhalde wrote:Taiwan was a part of China, just like Hong Kong. Except it was colonized by the Japanese instead of the British.


No Taiwan wasnt part of China.

Prior to the 16th Century Taiwan was occupied by Indigenous tribes and notably by the indigenous 'Kingdom of Dadu'. There was contact with Hakka fishermen, but no other chinese presence. There were also Japanese pirates in the area.

It was the Dutch arriving in 1624, who established Fort Zeelandia on the coast Tayouan and started to import labourers from Fujian, establishing a Chinese population of around 1500.

Koxinga fled to the Island in 1662 bringing Ming Refugees. Later the Ming rebels were conquered by the Qing and Chinese invasion of Taiwan began, displacing the indigenous peoples.

Then you get the Japanese invasion, which ended in WW2 when the Allied Forces handed Taiwan over to the RoC

So yes theres a significant Chinese population but Taiwan is not China

The Allied Forces handed Formosa to the ROC since the ROC was the leading Chinese government at the time of WWII. After the war, the Communists and Nationalists battled again until 1949, where the Communists won control of the mainland and the ROC fled to the island of Formosa, establishing the country of Taiwan (at the time, had UN recognition as the true China until the 70s).
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Postby Kowani » Wed Nov 13, 2019 11:23 pm

Yeesh. Neither candidate is actually good. But Tsai does favor greater separation from China, and I love anyone sticking it to Xi.
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