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Tribalism. The Good, The Bad, and the Other.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
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The Emerald Legion
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Tribalism. The Good, The Bad, and the Other.

Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:44 am

So, having a discussion on the subject previously, I figured a thread on it was warranted. Now personally, Tribalism is simple fact. Any sensible society is built on it. People form in groups and outgroups even where none existed before based on any number of differences. Even differences as relatively minor as 'I met these people first.'

Add on the force of Dunbars number, and you end up with a situation where any attempt at non Tribalistic social grouping is inevitably going to be building little more than a sociopathic beauracracy. With successful large societies in essence being a Tribal Chain. Where Bob knows Jeff, Jeff knows Greg, and Greg knows Rob. And thus, Rob and Bob can work together due to sharing a Tribal facet. But their interactions can become volatile outside of such a setting.

So, thoughts NSG?
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
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EastKekistan
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Postby EastKekistan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:51 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:So, having a discussion on the subject previously, I figured a thread on it was warranted. Now personally, Tribalism is simple fact. Any sensible society is built on it. People form in groups and outgroups even where none existed before based on any number of differences. Even differences as relatively minor as 'I met these people first.'

Add on the force of Dunbars number, and you end up with a situation where any attempt at non Tribalistic social grouping is inevitably going to be building little more than a sociopathic beauracracy. With successful large societies in essence being a Tribal Chain. Where Bob knows Jeff, Jeff knows Greg, and Greg knows Rob. And thus, Rob and Bob can work together due to sharing a Tribal facet. But their interactions can become volatile outside of such a setting.

So, thoughts NSG?

Your analysis is largely correct unless we have transhumanism.
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The Lone Alliance
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Postby The Lone Alliance » Thu Jul 11, 2019 9:59 am

I think the lack of understanding that humans are tribal are inheritaly part of the problem with the world today, too many people have this naive belief that humanity can move beyond tribalism or that we could create some sort of "Global tribe" but that's just not how we are wired.

It's why I do not believe that we will ever have a global government unless said global government ends up dominated by a single quasi tribe oppressing all the others.
Last edited by The Lone Alliance on Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:02 am

People, as children, are taught that they are part of a tribe of millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions, even over a billion.

Clearly it follows that it is impossible for people to learn to think of themselves as part of a single tribe comprising all people.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:06 am

Ifreann wrote:People, as children, are taught that they are part of a tribe of millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions, even over a billion.

Clearly it follows that it is impossible for people to learn to think of themselves as part of a single tribe comprising all people.


Incorrect. While ideals and identity can make larger allegiences possible, it doesn't mean they consider the entire nation their tribe. It means they consider the ideal of the nation as part of their tribe and that in and of itself can become a source of conflict.
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
Genivaria wrote:The Emerald Legion is NSG's personal Reaper.

The Drone Empire wrote:"Enlighten the willing, enslave the conquered, eradicate the defiant."
A typical Legionary strategy meeting.
The appropriate pronoun for me is It.
Philosophically Biophobic.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:06 am

Ifreann wrote:People, as children, are taught that they are part of a tribe of millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions, even over a billion.

Clearly it follows that it is impossible for people to learn to think of themselves as part of a single tribe comprising all people.


Pretty much this. We have little to no information on the counterfactual of what happens when you raise people to not consider tribalism at all, or that everyone is a member of the same tribe (the tribe of humanity). Until we have that, it's impossible to say if tribalism is inherently a part of human nature, or merely a dominant cultural phenomenon that wiped out opposing notions thousands of years ago.

In the meantime, I say that tribalism is stupid. 9 times out of 10 it is a cause of bad things, not good.
Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:21 am

Does anybody in a modern society really see themselves as a member of just one tribe? You've got your work tribe, family tribe, music tribe, sports tribe, social tribe...

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:34 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Does anybody in a modern society really see themselves as a member of just one tribe? You've got your work tribe, family tribe, music tribe, sports tribe, social tribe...


I agree with you, we are therefore both a part of the same tribe tribe.

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:46 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Does anybody in a modern society really see themselves as a member of just one tribe? You've got your work tribe, family tribe, music tribe, sports tribe, social tribe...


Not particularly. You're trying to view tribes as external.
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
Genivaria wrote:The Emerald Legion is NSG's personal Reaper.

The Drone Empire wrote:"Enlighten the willing, enslave the conquered, eradicate the defiant."
A typical Legionary strategy meeting.
The appropriate pronoun for me is It.
Philosophically Biophobic.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:52 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Does anybody in a modern society really see themselves as a member of just one tribe? You've got your work tribe, family tribe, music tribe, sports tribe, social tribe...


Not particularly. You're trying to view tribes as external.


I have no idea what you mean.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 11, 2019 10:55 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Does anybody in a modern society really see themselves as a member of just one tribe? You've got your work tribe, family tribe, music tribe, sports tribe, social tribe...


Not particularly. You're trying to view tribes as external.

Most people do see them that way.
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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:18 am

Kowani wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Not particularly. You're trying to view tribes as external.

Most people do see them that way.


Because most people view Tribes as primitive savages and don't think about the actual meaning of Tribalism.

Your Tribe is just the people you know and maintain relationships with.
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
Genivaria wrote:The Emerald Legion is NSG's personal Reaper.

The Drone Empire wrote:"Enlighten the willing, enslave the conquered, eradicate the defiant."
A typical Legionary strategy meeting.
The appropriate pronoun for me is It.
Philosophically Biophobic.

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Khataiy
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Postby Khataiy » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:20 am

Tribalism is part of human nature, its a very important part of many cultures and societies and should be respected.

"We shall always bear witness to Arabism as the body that hosts the spirit of Islam...Islam is Arab in its reality, and universal in its ideals and goals." - Michel Aflaq

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:26 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Kowani wrote:Most people do see them that way.


Because most people view Tribes as primitive savages and don't think about the actual meaning of Tribalism.

Your Tribe is just the people you know and maintain relationships with.

So you have work relationships, family relationships, music relationships, sports relationships, social relationships.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
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Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
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EastKekistan
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Postby EastKekistan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:27 am

Khataiy wrote:Tribalism is part of human nature, its a very important part of many cultures and societies and should be respected.

That's why we should reserve most of the world for trad ethnostates and let all authoritarians and collectivists live there.

I prefer Singapores and do not want authoritarians and collectivists to ruin Singapores.
[spoiler=Our colonies outside earth (2150)]
1. 85% of the moon
2. 45% of Mars
3. The rest of the Solar System (Solar System is Division 0)
4. 27 other divisions (Division 1-27) [/spoiler]
An alliance of racially Northeast Asian countries friendly with White Nationalists, Zionists and nationalists in the Middle East and India.
We are an alliance of rich, safe and clean nations. Rapid scientific development, space exploration, modern cities, skyscrapers and high-speed trains..you will enjoy ultra-modern life if you come and visit us.
We are a Tier 7, Level 0, Type 8 civilization according to this index. Our map

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:27 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Because most people view Tribes as primitive savages and don't think about the actual meaning of Tribalism.

Your Tribe is just the people you know and maintain relationships with.

So you have work relationships, family relationships, music relationships, sports relationships, social relationships.


Not really?
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
Genivaria wrote:The Emerald Legion is NSG's personal Reaper.

The Drone Empire wrote:"Enlighten the willing, enslave the conquered, eradicate the defiant."
A typical Legionary strategy meeting.
The appropriate pronoun for me is It.
Philosophically Biophobic.

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EastKekistan
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Postby EastKekistan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:27 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Because most people view Tribes as primitive savages and don't think about the actual meaning of Tribalism.

Your Tribe is just the people you know and maintain relationships with.

So you have work relationships, family relationships, music relationships, sports relationships, social relationships.


Then you are unusually non-tribalist. You belong to Singapore, not Japan.
[spoiler=Our colonies outside earth (2150)]
1. 85% of the moon
2. 45% of Mars
3. The rest of the Solar System (Solar System is Division 0)
4. 27 other divisions (Division 1-27) [/spoiler]
An alliance of racially Northeast Asian countries friendly with White Nationalists, Zionists and nationalists in the Middle East and India.
We are an alliance of rich, safe and clean nations. Rapid scientific development, space exploration, modern cities, skyscrapers and high-speed trains..you will enjoy ultra-modern life if you come and visit us.
We are a Tier 7, Level 0, Type 8 civilization according to this index. Our map

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:29 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So you have work relationships, family relationships, music relationships, sports relationships, social relationships.


Not really?

Do you seriously only have one social circle? That's bizarre.


EastKekistan wrote:
Ifreann wrote:So you have work relationships, family relationships, music relationships, sports relationships, social relationships.


Then you are unusually non-tribalist. You belong to Singapore, not Japan.

Not even close.
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Banter For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Snark That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Sarcasm
He/Him

Dangerous this Jack o' Hearts.
With his kiss
the riot
starts

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:29 am

Khataiy wrote:Tribalism is part of human nature, its a very important part of many cultures and societies and should be respected.

So was rape.
Narcissistic (Hedonistic) Nihilist. Yes, I am edgy. I know.
Dorgival R. Seč of the NS Parliament!
Atheist and still proud of it. Technophile to the extreme.
Post-Capitalist, Post-Nationalist. Go beyond.
Oh, and a Pragmatist. Somehow.
Rights are functionally just privileges society has deemed important.
Neanderthaland wrote:
Christian Confederation wrote:Contraception can't fail if you don't have sex in term no unwanted pregnancy.

Your entire religion is based on the idea that this isn't true.

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:32 am

Ifreann wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
Not really?

Do you seriously only have one social circle? That's bizarre.


EastKekistan wrote:
Then you are unusually non-tribalist. You belong to Singapore, not Japan.

Not even close.


A social circle and a tribe are different. You can know and socialize with a person without considering them a part of your tribe.

EastKekistan wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Tribalism is part of human nature, its a very important part of many cultures and societies and should be respected.

That's why we should reserve most of the world for trad ethnostates and let all authoritarians and collectivists live there.

I prefer Singapores and do not want authoritarians and collectivists to ruin Singapores.


How does "People will form in groups and out groups based on nearly any factor whatsoever." Lead to a need for Ethnostates?
"I must play this game by my rules/ I will conquer the world with my tools/ All my machines are made for destruction/ I will build my empire/ I will succeed and you will see/ With my machines there is no retreat." ~ E.G.G.M.A.N.
I frequently lapse into self parody, that isn't to say that I don't have extreme views, just that I occasionally go over the top for comedic effect.
Genivaria wrote:The Emerald Legion is NSG's personal Reaper.

The Drone Empire wrote:"Enlighten the willing, enslave the conquered, eradicate the defiant."
A typical Legionary strategy meeting.
The appropriate pronoun for me is It.
Philosophically Biophobic.

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EastKekistan
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Jun 30, 2019
Anarchy

Postby EastKekistan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:35 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do you seriously only have one social circle? That's bizarre.



Not even close.


A social circle and a tribe are different. You can know and socialize with a person without considering them a part of your tribe.

EastKekistan wrote:That's why we should reserve most of the world for trad ethnostates and let all authoritarians and collectivists live there.

I prefer Singapores and do not want authoritarians and collectivists to ruin Singapores.


How does "People will form in groups and out groups based on nearly any factor whatsoever." Lead to a need for Ethnostates?


I don't like tribe-minded, authoritarian and collectivistic people at all. However since they are so numerous let's let them have most of the world to practice their traditionalism, authoritarianism or whatever.

Just leave us a few free cities where they can't bother us. Yeah we can call it "self-segregation from authoritarians".
Last edited by EastKekistan on Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
[spoiler=Our colonies outside earth (2150)]
1. 85% of the moon
2. 45% of Mars
3. The rest of the Solar System (Solar System is Division 0)
4. 27 other divisions (Division 1-27) [/spoiler]
An alliance of racially Northeast Asian countries friendly with White Nationalists, Zionists and nationalists in the Middle East and India.
We are an alliance of rich, safe and clean nations. Rapid scientific development, space exploration, modern cities, skyscrapers and high-speed trains..you will enjoy ultra-modern life if you come and visit us.
We are a Tier 7, Level 0, Type 8 civilization according to this index. Our map

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Khataiy
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Founded: Apr 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Khataiy » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:35 am

Kowani wrote:
Khataiy wrote:Tribalism is part of human nature, its a very important part of many cultures and societies and should be respected.

So was rape.

Not even close.

"We shall always bear witness to Arabism as the body that hosts the spirit of Islam...Islam is Arab in its reality, and universal in its ideals and goals." - Michel Aflaq

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EastKekistan
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Posts: 625
Founded: Jun 30, 2019
Anarchy

Postby EastKekistan » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:41 am

Khataiy wrote:
Kowani wrote:So was rape.

Not even close.

That's culture-dependent. In some Pacific Islands maybe both are very natural, so is murder.
[spoiler=Our colonies outside earth (2150)]
1. 85% of the moon
2. 45% of Mars
3. The rest of the Solar System (Solar System is Division 0)
4. 27 other divisions (Division 1-27) [/spoiler]
An alliance of racially Northeast Asian countries friendly with White Nationalists, Zionists and nationalists in the Middle East and India.
We are an alliance of rich, safe and clean nations. Rapid scientific development, space exploration, modern cities, skyscrapers and high-speed trains..you will enjoy ultra-modern life if you come and visit us.
We are a Tier 7, Level 0, Type 8 civilization according to this index. Our map

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Heloin
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Heloin » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:42 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Do you seriously only have one social circle? That's bizarre.



Not even close.


A social circle and a tribe are different. You can know and socialize with a person without considering them a part of your tribe.

Is it though? Sports fans are definitely part of a Tribal structure, one's family is very easily just a small tribe. Then even that someone can consider themselves part of more then one national tribe.

EastKekistan wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
A social circle and a tribe are different. You can know and socialize with a person without considering them a part of your tribe.



How does "People will form in groups and out groups based on nearly any factor whatsoever." Lead to a need for Ethnostates?


I don't like tribe-minded, authoritarian and collectivistic people at all. However since they are so numerous let's let them have most of the world to practice their traditionalism, authoritarianism or whatever.

Just leave us a few free cities where they can't bother us. Yeah we can call it "self-segregation from authoritarians".

We all appreciate the sacrifice you ivory tower intellects make for the rest of us.
And there but for fortune, may go you or I.

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jul 11, 2019 11:45 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:You can know and socialize with a person without considering them a part of your tribe.


I still don't know what you mean by your tribe then. Is this all some veiled white supremacist thread?

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