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If the Iron Curtain still existed in Easten Europe

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Fascist Rep of Singapore
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If the Iron Curtain still existed in Easten Europe

Postby Fascist Rep of Singapore » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:39 am

What would happen if communism did not fall in East Germany, Hungary, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, Mongolia and the Soviet Union?

How would the world turn out like? What would be different? How would Germany, the European Union, NATO and the USA be different? Would the breakup of Yugoslavia even happen?

Would the Warsaw Pact still exist in this alternate timeline? How would technology be different today? What will the Eastern European economy look like?

What would have the Communist governments of Eastern Europe done differently to save their asses? What about Afghanistan? Would Europe be more armed and conservative? What about China and North Korea? Would they be different? Who would be in power other than Gorbachev during 1983-1991?

(No more than 2 joke answers please)
Last edited by Fascist Rep of Singapore on Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:30 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Neu Leonstein
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Postby Neu Leonstein » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:54 am

The answer to all those questions depends on how 1980s style Soviet communism could have not collapsed. What would they have done differently that saved their bacon?
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National Republic of Antagoria
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Postby National Republic of Antagoria » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:57 am

The space race, the invasion of Afghanistan and the mafia were leading causes of the Soviet collapse. Should these factors be taken out or only a few of them?
Last edited by National Republic of Antagoria on Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Great Swedish Empire
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Postby The Great Swedish Empire » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:00 am

I do recommend that you expand your OP if you don't want a mod to lock this.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:18 am

It still exists, it's called Merkel.
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National Republic of Antagoria
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Postby National Republic of Antagoria » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:49 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:It still exists, it's called Merkel.

Damn right.

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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:23 am

This begs the question as to how communism could possibly have survived. And if did survive, how did it survive in such a way as to allow capitalism to survive too. The way in which they do so will completely dictate the answer.
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Imbalistan
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Postby Imbalistan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:24 am

Chan Island wrote:This begs the question as to how communism could possibly have survived. And if did survive, how did it survive in such a way as to allow capitalism to survive too. The way in which they do so will completely dictate the answer.

Big issue is that the entire system was all ready falling apart. It would have, at best, survived till maybe 2000, but even then thats unlikely.
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:26 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:It still exists, it's called Merkel.

Liberal capitalist democracy is a far cry from Marxism-Leninism, but I know you don’t really care about addressing that, so whatever.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:28 am

The continued Liberalization and growth of Free-Market Capitalism (as opposed to its original State Capitalism) in the USSR probably would've kept going, but NATO and the Eastern Bloc still likely would've been at each other's throats for reasons of power and nothing else.

Nilrahrarfan wrote:It still exists, it's called Merkel.


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You Fascists really will call everything you don't like Communism, huh?
Last edited by Torrocca on Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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National Republic of Antagoria
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Postby National Republic of Antagoria » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:29 am

The communists could not make it into the 21st century even if the Afghanistan invasion, mafia and space race never existed. Even so, communism was a flawed system in which Karl Marx never wanted communism to be a full-blown economic and political system. It was doomed to die anyway no matter what.

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:32 am

National Republic of Antagoria wrote:The communists could not make it into the 21st century even if the Afghanistan invasion, mafia and space race never existed. Even so, communism was a flawed system in which Karl Marx never wanted communism to be a full-blown economic and political system. It was doomed to die anyway no matter what.


Literally nothing past that first sentence is true. Why, pray tell, would the father of Communism not want it to be a full-blown system? Communism never failed because it was never even implemented.
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"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
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Arcturus Novus
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Postby Arcturus Novus » Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:38 am

National Republic of Antagoria wrote:The communists could not make it into the 21st century even if the Afghanistan invasion, mafia and space race never existed.

But why not? The USSR’s biggest issues in the 1980s were trying to divert funding toward the space race and an inflating defense budget - if you at least remove these two, you’ll likely have a more stable Soviet economy that can at least pull itself into the 2000s. If anything, the USSR’s biggest issue would probably be “westernizing” itself - more specifically, how to do that in such a way as to not completely shock the system into failure.
Even so, communism was a flawed system in which Karl Marx never wanted communism to be a full-blown economic and political system. It was doomed to die anyway no matter what.

I’m gonna need like, at least one source for that one friendo.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:17 am

Neu Leonstein wrote:The answer to all those questions depends on how 1980s style Soviet communism could have not collapsed. What would they have done differently that saved their bacon?

The Eastern Bloc would probably have had to go for a mixed economy. But obviously by 1990 it was too late. Even the 1980s is too late. They would have to start it in the 1970s at least for it to make any difference to their long term survival. With some addressing of the economic problems then it is possible that a lid could have been kept on the social problems for the foreseeable future.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:38 am

They would have had to begin a China-style market-democratization. China survived by beginning that process in the late 1970s. The Soviet Union staunchly refused to do so until about 1986, at which point it was too late. Relaxed price controls led to inflation, which destabilized the currency, and the state itself. Inflation is one of the beginnings of a revolution. Once inflation destabilized the currency, and people became unable to buy products, protest, and corruption set in. The corruption and black markets left out more people, leading to further protest, and the eventual collapse.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:07 am

Communism wasn't practiced in the Eastern Bloc.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:14 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Communism wasn't practiced in the Eastern Bloc.

I think we know what the OP is getting at. :eyebrow:
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Imbalistan
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Postby Imbalistan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:55 am

The New California Republic wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Communism wasn't practiced in the Eastern Bloc.

I think we know what the OP is getting at. :eyebrow:

Ah sh*t, here we go again.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:58 am

Torrocca wrote:
National Republic of Antagoria wrote:The communists could not make it into the 21st century even if the Afghanistan invasion, mafia and space race never existed. Even so, communism was a flawed system in which Karl Marx never wanted communism to be a full-blown economic and political system. It was doomed to die anyway no matter what.


Literally nothing past that first sentence is true. Why, pray tell, would the father of Communism not want it to be a full-blown system? Communism never failed because it was never even implemented.

Communism is a bad idea, and we've proven it. Try implementing your own communist system in a micronation and see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, that's proof that it'll NEVER work. If it DOES work for whatever reason, I'll be surprised. Tell me the results after the experiment is over.
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:02 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Literally nothing past that first sentence is true. Why, pray tell, would the father of Communism not want it to be a full-blown system? Communism never failed because it was never even implemented.

Communism is a bad idea, and we've proven it. Try implementing your own communist system in a micronation and see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, that's proof that it'll NEVER work. If it DOES work for whatever reason, I'll be surprised. Tell me the results after the experiment is over.


Well we all are micronations here.
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Postby Finland SSR » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:04 am

I wouldn't be posting here because I'd be on the other side of the curtain having condensed milk on white bread for breakfast.

Actually I already do that, except with a hundred times more hours wasted on the Internet.

Maybe alternate universe me would put all those wasted hours and brain power to use for, I don't know, conquering the world.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:11 am

Nilrahrarfan wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
Literally nothing past that first sentence is true. Why, pray tell, would the father of Communism not want it to be a full-blown system? Communism never failed because it was never even implemented.

Communism is a bad idea, and we've proven it.


No you haven't.

Try implementing your own communist system in a micronation and see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, that's proof that it'll NEVER work. If it DOES work for whatever reason, I'll be surprised. Tell me the results after the experiment is over.


The Zapatistas have been running a Communist society for over twenty years now. I'm sure you'll totally concede that you're wrong after having been told this, and not instead go and say, "lol but they're mountain farmers so it doesn't count xD".
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"Fascism is not debated, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti
"When the people are being hit with a stick, they are not happier if the stick is called “the stick of the people”. The State is an oppression that must be abolished."
I go by Torra and feminine pronouns! They/Them/Their are perfectly acceptable alternatives as well :3
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Nakena
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Postby Nakena » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:12 am

Torrocca wrote:
Nilrahrarfan wrote:Communism is a bad idea, and we've proven it.


No you haven't.

Try implementing your own communist system in a micronation and see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, that's proof that it'll NEVER work. If it DOES work for whatever reason, I'll be surprised. Tell me the results after the experiment is over.


The Zapatistas have been running a Communist society for over twenty years now. I'm sure you'll totally concede that you're wrong after having been told this, and not instead go and say, "lol but they're mountain farmers so it doesn't count xD".


Zapatistas are underrated.
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Nilrahrarfan
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Nilrahrarfan » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:18 am

Torrocca wrote:
Nilrahrarfan wrote:Communism is a bad idea, and we've proven it.


No you haven't.

Try implementing your own communist system in a micronation and see if it works or not, and if it doesn't, that's proof that it'll NEVER work. If it DOES work for whatever reason, I'll be surprised. Tell me the results after the experiment is over.


The Zapatistas have been running a Communist society for over twenty years now. I'm sure you'll totally concede that you're wrong after having been told this, and not instead go and say, "lol but they're mountain farmers so it doesn't count xD".

Every attempt to implement communism has been less like communism's intended purpose and more like a worse version of Nazism

Also, I'm not even gonna bother with the Zapatistas. I was partially wrong, it works on a small scale. Putting it on the scale of a large country, however, is like putting Vince Russo in charge of WWE. There's also probably some group out there that has made fascism work. My plan is to do what the Zapatistas are doing, but with Fascism instead of Communism.
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Aeritai
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Postby Aeritai » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:20 am

I mean considering how Cuba, Vietnam, and North Korea are able to exist as a communist nation into the 21st century I won't doubt that the Soviet Union will keep going on. Though it will have problems with Ukrainian and Polish rebels trying to break their nation free. Along with a few economy and food problems.
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