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Trans Discussion Thread 4: HRT And Crumpets

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Gender Census! What's your gender identity?

Agender
3
2%
Androgynous/Androgyne
2
1%
Genderfluid
6
3%
Woman (cis)
11
6%
Woman (trans)
40
21%
Man (cis)
108
57%
Man (trans)
3
2%
Unsure/Questioning
7
4%
Other/Not listed (feel free to explain)
8
4%
 
Total votes : 188

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Cappuccina
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cappuccina » Fri May 17, 2019 4:30 pm

Soviet Tankistan wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Image

Cekoviu wrote:Oh, mb. I meant Hoxhaist. :)

>treating Stalinism and Hoxhaism as insults.

Anyway, I’ve recognized transgenders in my NS country as of today.

No one cares.
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Iciaros
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Iciaros » Fri May 17, 2019 5:58 pm

Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?
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Auzkhia
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Postby Auzkhia » Fri May 17, 2019 6:09 pm

Iciaros wrote:Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?

Probably, I was out shopping and got my make up done by someone else. I was not paying attention.

I guess my social transitioning is going well, and getting better about reminding people about pronoun usage.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Fri May 17, 2019 8:01 pm

Des-Bal wrote:There is no reason to believe them, because there's no reason to believe that that's a thing that can happen.

My baseline awareness is male or masculine, while the voice my mind speaks with is feminine.

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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Fri May 17, 2019 8:12 pm

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:My baseline awareness is male or masculine, while the voice my mind speaks with is feminine.

I see no reason to assume that matters or means what you think it does.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Fri May 17, 2019 8:22 pm

Des-Bal wrote:I see no reason to assume that matters or means what you think it does.

It’s just a description of my gender. I don’t identify as female, though part of me farther down the spectrum feels female. But my gender (or mind) is not “binary”, it is made of components.
Last edited by Socialist Workers Combine on Fri May 17, 2019 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Des-Bal
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Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Des-Bal » Fri May 17, 2019 8:54 pm

Socialist Workers Combine wrote:It’s just a description of my gender. I don’t identify as female, though part of me farther down the spectrum feels female. But my gender (or mind) is not “binary”, it is made of components.


I repeat the statement.
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Grenartia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Grenartia » Fri May 17, 2019 9:14 pm

Proctopeo wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Maybe that's a sign that a lot of what's perceived as "acceptable" behavior for men is actually toxic.

No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior".


I did.

It's rarely used in reference to that.


Maybe your judgment of what is toxic behavior is skewed.

And even then it's almost always colored by the person using the term being one of those "lol men having feelings? #MasculinitySoFragile" sorts, or some other type of similarly toxic individual who shouldn't be calling anything toxic.


I've literally never seen that. The "Masculinity So Fragile" thing is only really used in reference to toxic masculinity that says men can't like flowers, or have any feelings aside from "HULK ANGRY HULK SMASH".

Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).[/quote]

Hardly. However, advertising that emphasizes aggressive masculinity is toxic. And its not even like there aren't things being advertised that are masculine, but not toxically so. For example, Old Spice commericals aren't displaying toxic masculinity. But Axe's line of "CHEMICAL WARFARE FOR YOUR BO" / "WEAPON OF MASS SEDUCTION" shit is textbook toxic masculinity in advertising.

Cappuccina wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior". It's rarely used in reference to that.


Xenopolis, WLO, and Cappu responded more succinctly than I would've on this.
Unless you consider grey-colored beds, soap with cool grips, and novelty chocolates "toxic masculinity", in which case you're just delusional (and probably complain about attractive women in advertising campaigns).


I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!


Nice strawman. But, if anything, the toxic femininity is TERF bullshit.

Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:
I find it telling that there's a "toxic masculinity", but no corresponding "toxic femininity". Men are always the issue, not we poor helpless, but strong independent women!!!

The whole point of feminism is that the female and male parts of the populations deal with different issues. Society puts different expectations on the genders. For men, this is an expectation of strength, violence, lack of nuance and no emotional output. For women, this is objectification, less interest in manual labour and the STEM fields. We just don’t call it ‘toxic femininity’, but if that’s your criticism then you have not gone too deeply into the issue at all.


I mean, if anyone can look me straight in the eye, and honestly tell me that TERFs don't promote a toxic definition of femininity, speak up.

Proctopeo wrote:
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:

Just repeating this because you seem to have missed it.

Also, toxic masculinity is seen as something bad imposed on men, not the fault of the men themselves, generally. It’s basically an issue where feminists fight in favour of men. You seem to misundertand what toxic masculinity even means.

So do about 98% of people who actually use the term, which suggests that their definition is predominant if not "official"
also >feminism fighting in favor of men on anything
I'm avin a laff


Actually, feminists back in the day of the ERA argued in favor of either making women sign up for the Selective Service as well, or just outright abolishing the draft, and also advocated for more equal divorce outcomes, AND a more inclusive definition of rape. And the antifeminists successfully fought against those things. I.E., everything MRAs today say feminists don't want.

Honestly, watch the video.

Cappuccina wrote:Ok then, what is non-toxic masculinity?


Masculinity that is not toxic. Gee, that was simple, wasn't it?

How can there be either toxic or non-toxic masculinity if "gender is a social construct" and doesn't really exist? :)


Something being a social construct doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This should be clearly evident through use of basic logic. Money, laws, and languages are also social constructs, but I'd like to see you break a law because it "isn't real".

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:No argument there. Yes. Some feminists do use it to the point of making me, a feminist too, chuckle.

Let’s also be clear in that some feminists other-ize trans women to ridiculous heights. Seeing them as invaders of a woman’s space and identity. Feminism is not innocent at all when it comes to hating and marginalizing trans women.

Yeah. I don't get why TERFs are so concerned with "women's spaces." If you ask me, gendered spaces should be minimized. Integration is a good thing, maybe even in bathrooms.

Cappuccina wrote:I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".

What's wrong with sex workers?


I'm also wondering that. And, as someone who knows several sex workers, I have to point out that being anti-SW is functionally being anti-trans, since so many trans people have no choice BUT to be sex workers.

Cappuccina wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:The fact they're not hurting anybody.

Perhaps not pummelling people, no, but sexwork is a social ill that has associated physical and mental detriment to women and people in general.


Where's the proof?

Communist Zombie Horde wrote:How is it transphobic to say their are two geneders?


How is it not transphobic to say that?

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Cappuccina wrote:
Yup, TERFs....ugh.

I wouldn't go as far as saying I'm anti-feminist, but I'm certainly critical of its modern popular incarnation. I'd say my views are similar to those of "SWERFs".


I have no problem with sex workers. If that’s what they want to do, more power to them. What I’d like is for them to have protections under law.


I'd like for it to be legal, so they don't have to face violence from cops, and social stigma that does unnecessary harm, and prevents them from reporting bad shit (like trafficking, rape, etc.) to cops.

Cappuccina wrote:I personally see it differently, I see non-binary ideas as anti-trans.


Then you see it wrong.

Saying you can be trans and then saying gender isn't real


Saying gender is a social construct =/= saying it isn't real.

or is a spectrum is inconsistent.


What's the problem with saying gender is a spectrum?

Iciaros wrote:Geez, why do these things always happen when I'm asleep?

Anyways, if this does split off into a new thread, does that mean we'll lose like several pages' worth of posts from here?


Yes, but don't worry, that just means we get to have this thread for that many pages more.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri May 17, 2019 9:30 pm

Just finished watching this video and I thought it was good to share it here: https://youtu.be/cR8tUs5YQvY

This married couple of 18 years stayed together and the wife helped and supported her now wife in her transition. Truly sweet and a nice slice of positivism.
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Socialist Workers Combine
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Socialist Workers Combine » Fri May 17, 2019 9:59 pm

Des-Bal wrote:I repeat the statement.

Your statement didn’t say much. It would seem you don’t have much to contribute at this point.

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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Anarchy

Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri May 17, 2019 11:49 pm

Cekoviu wrote:
Dumb Ideologies wrote:
There's no "invasion" going on. The OP and others raised toxic masculinity as a possible reasons for why a transman could have done a shooting. Some conversation on the wider utility of the term then arose organically from that.

Yes, which has caused non-regular posters to enter the thread and hijack it into being about nothing related to trans people anymore.
There's no "co-opting" going on. Hindus and others created swastikas as a religious symbol. Usage of it as a Nazi military symbol arose organically from that.

There's nothing wrong with non-regulars posting here, and nothing wrong with briefly talking about topics that are only tangentially related to trans issues.
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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Fri May 17, 2019 11:50 pm

Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.
Pro: Liberty, Liberalism, Capitalism, Secularism, Equal opportunity, Direct Democracy, Windows Chauvinism, Psychedelic Rock, LGBT+ Rights, Live and let live tbh.
Against: Authoritarianism, Traditionalism, Non-Market-Socialism, Laissez-Faire Capitalism, Autocracy, (A)Theocracy, Macs, "The ends justify the means," Collectivism in all its forms.
Economic: 0
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NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

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First American Empire
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Libertarian Police State

Postby First American Empire » Sat May 18, 2019 1:06 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.
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Dumb Ideologies
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Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Sat May 18, 2019 1:10 am

First American Empire wrote:
The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.


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The Xenopolis Confederation
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Postby The Xenopolis Confederation » Sat May 18, 2019 1:30 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
First American Empire wrote:If Xeno's an Ancap and DI's a Stalinist, I'm a Blairite.


Plot twist: we're all little teapots and that's why our posts are so pour.

Speak for yourself, my posts aren't poor, they're short and stout.
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NS Stats should be taken with a pinch of salt, but they're not too far off. Policies are way off though.
I'm an 18 year old Australian male* who tries to think about things but fails, as we all do. I'll regret this in 2 years tops.

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Iciaros
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Founded: Sep 30, 2014
Libertarian Police State

Postby Iciaros » Sat May 18, 2019 4:44 am

Auzkhia wrote:
I guess my social transitioning is going well, and getting better about reminding people about pronoun usage.


That's good! Glad to hear things are going well for you. Hopefully it continues to get better from here on out. ^.^

On my end, I've been out to my parents for a while, and I usually wear my feminine clothes when I go out, but I only very recently started wearing those clothes around my parents (out of necessity more than anything else; I needed to get my sweet monster of a kitty to the vet, and I have neither a car nor driver's license). My father just takes it with no comment, as usual, but my mother clearly isn't happy about it. She won't force me to do anything or try to kick me out of the house or something, but she very obviously doesn't approve. Today when I was going out, she said "You better not let [your grandfather] see you wearing that", which is kind of the way she expresses her displeasure (through pointing out practical issues unrelated to the actual source of her unhappiness). When I came back, she told me to go get changed, to which I asked "Why? Is [my grandfather] coming over?", and she conspicuously didn't reply.

So, yeah. Neither of my parents are really 'supportive' in that way to much as 'resigned', though my mother more so. Unfortunate, and it does make me sad / annoyed / awkward, but they deserve to feel however they want. I'm eventually planning to move out when I'm financially independent, anyway, so hopefully that time comes soon.

In other news, I'm planning to legally change my name. I can't change my legal gender, but having a feminine name will make passing in school a lot easier. I'm hoping to start wearing dresses and such when my next term begins. It's a good thing I'm basically invisible, or else people might notice the change.
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Proctopeo
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Anarchy

Postby Proctopeo » Sat May 18, 2019 8:56 am

Grenartia wrote:
Proctopeo wrote:No, not really.
Notice how I said "genuinely toxic behavior".


I did.

Hmm, I doubt that.

It's rarely used in reference to that.


Maybe your judgment of what is toxic behavior is skewed.

Highly unlikely. It's more likely a result of an ideological framework that puts harmless things as "toxic" due to sexism.

Hardly. However, advertising that emphasizes aggressive masculinity is toxic. And its not even like there aren't things being advertised that are masculine, but not toxically so. For example, Old Spice commericals aren't displaying toxic masculinity. But Axe's line of "CHEMICAL WARFARE FOR YOUR BO" / "WEAPON OF MASS SEDUCTION" shit is textbook toxic masculinity in advertising.

Why is "aggressive masculinity" "toxic"? Why is it bad that Axe advertises its body spray in a badass way? Sure, the product sucks, but that's separate from the advertising from said product.


"According to a Youtube video by some pretentious sexist git, feminists back in the late 70s/early 80s didn't oppose a move for equal rights, which means feminists in the new 10's don't either!!!"
You do realize it's been near 40 years, right? Movements change. Times change. People change.
Hell, back when the ERA was first supposed back in the 20's, it really caused a split between feminists.

Also, in the words of an anon I came across when googling the URL:
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat May 18, 2019 9:50 am

As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.
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Cekoviu
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Sat May 18, 2019 10:15 am

The Xenopolis Confederation wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:It was just the first example that came to mind. Nothing specifically accusing you of being a Nazi (since a more accurate strawman would call you a Stalinist anyway, and I strive to maintain realism in my strawmen).

If DI's a Stalinist, I'm an Ancap.

Crikey, are you implying that you aren't?
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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Sat May 18, 2019 10:15 am

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.
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Crockerland
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Postby Crockerland » Sat May 18, 2019 10:35 am

Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

>Glorifying spousal abuse
I guess I shouldn't expect much better from a company whose entire business model is aimed at convincing rappers and white 20 year olds trying to act like rappers to "flex" on poor people, but still, yikes.
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Luminesa
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Postby Luminesa » Sat May 18, 2019 11:10 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.

Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

User avatar
Cekoviu
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6961
Founded: Oct 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cekoviu » Sat May 18, 2019 11:11 am

Luminesa wrote:
Cekoviu wrote:I don't think I've ever heard the phrase "as a casual watcher of perfume commercials" before.

Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."

Yeah, it was just amusingly worded. :P
⮽⮽⮽ Copy and paste this in your sig if you hate the idiotic meme that your grade in 9th grade biology has literally anything to do with your fake-edgy views on gender. ⮽⮽⮽
Hickenlooper 2020
Avoid Mount Stupid. Don't opine on things you know nothing about.
♀, not Bhutanese

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Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51651
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sat May 18, 2019 11:12 am

Crockerland wrote:
Luminesa wrote:As a casual watcher of perfume commercials who probably is not too-well-educated on the topic, AXE’s commercials aren’t all too different from commercials like that for Gucci Guilty, which depicts a guy and a girl in hot, steamy, adulterous sex who wake-up together and the phone rings because of a worried spouse. They sell on the idea that somehow wearing this perfume will make you a...for lack of a better term, sex machine. The problem is they not only push toxic masculinity, but also toxic femininity-throwing around your sexuality is not unique to only guys.

>Glorifying spousal abuse
I guess I shouldn't expect much better from a company whose entire business model is aimed at convincing rappers and white 20 year olds trying to act like rappers to "flex" on poor people, but still, yikes.

Gucci's perfume only works if you want to smell like you just fell in a vat full of musk via Joker and the acid in The Killing Joke, climbed-out, and got asked five seconds later what flowers smell like. (Actually this may only be Gucci Bloom, whose commercial actually is just as much of a sensory overload.)
Last edited by Luminesa on Sat May 18, 2019 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 51651
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Sat May 18, 2019 11:13 am

Cekoviu wrote:
Luminesa wrote:Lol, I meant it in the vein of, "I may or may not notice perfume commercials on TV or on YouTube while I'm trying to watch a music video or a Markiplier playthrough."

Yeah, it was just amusingly worded. :P

The Gucci Guilty one is just a commercial I recall in particular because it was so...brazen. Also, the perfume doesn't smell good at all.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. Not that I need the coffee, but you know... :3

So apparently I am an ENFP!

Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson

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