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Opearation merciful angel

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Agarntrop
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Opearation merciful angel

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:21 am

A thread discussing the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.
I know this means a lot to some people but please don't make cancerous comments or use the f word or anything worse.

I don't personally think merciful angel was justified, nearly 600 Serbs were killed over ethnic cleansing which was being commited by Yugoslavia. I mean, I'm not saying the ethnic cleansing didn't happen, but it was on the same scale as what NATO allies like Isreal or Saudi Arabia. So I'm not sure it was justified. However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified as they killed 600 innocent people doing so and it was hypocritical seeing what Isreal and Saudi Arabia were doing!


ModEdit as per here: viewtopic.php?p=34187766#p34187766
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Islands of Washington
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Postby Islands of Washington » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:25 am

Agarntrop wrote:A thread discussing the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.
I know this means a lot to some people but please don't make cancerous comments or use the f word or anything worse. I can mark comments as cancerous by quoting comments and then saying 'marked as cancerous' and you must delete them.

I don't personally think merciful angel was justified, nearly 600 Serbs were killed over ethnic cleansing which was being commited by Yugoslavia. I mean, I'm not saying the ethnic cleansing didn't happen, but it was on the same scale as what NATO allies like Isreal or Saudi Arabia. So I'm not sure it was justified. However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified.

The Problem with your statement is that this could be a great topic of discussion, however you seem to be putting quite a lot of feeling into this topic, which I want to state not to do too much. You need to provide evidence why this was justified, or wasn't justified, and then use the point of your personal feeling.
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:29 am

However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified.


How are these two statements not at odds? Is preventing more innocent people from being killed and ending a conflict not a justification?
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When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:53 am

Jute wrote:
However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified.


How are these two statements not at odds? Is preventing more innocent people from being killed and ending a conflict not a justification?


Because they killed 600 innnocent people doing so.
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Jute
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Postby Jute » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:04 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Jute wrote:
How are these two statements not at odds? Is preventing more innocent people from being killed and ending a conflict not a justification?


Because they killed 600 innnocent people doing so.

Do you know how many people were killed by D-Day alone, including civilians?
Italios wrote:Jute's probably some sort of Robin Hood-type outlaw
Carl Sagan, astrophysicist and atheist wrote:"Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality.
When we recognize our place in an immensity of light-years and in the passage of ages,
when we grasp the intricacy, beauty, and subtlety of life, then that soaring feeling,
that sense of elation and humility combined, is surely spiritual...The notion that science
and spirituality are somehow mutually exclusive does a disservice to both."
"A rejection of all philosophy is in itself philosophy."

Check out the Jutean language! Talk to me about anything. Avian air force flag (Source) Definition of atheism Is Religion Dangerous?

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Saiwania
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Postby Saiwania » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:24 am

Not too long ago when I had some time to spare, I played this somewhat obscure Novalogic game (can still manage to run it on Windows 7 and perhaps even on Windows 10) called F-16 Multirole Fighter (1998). Anyways, it has a set of 8 levels or "campaign" that is loosely based on US or NATO intervention in Yugoslavia that did happen.

It is just a silly game after all, so I've no idea if the synopsis was pulled out of thin air or not. But from the level briefings it'd seem that it blames the Serbians for the war and pits their fleet of primarily Russian aircraft against your US squadron of F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, F-22s, B-1Bs and etc.

The point of the fictional campaign is to "restore Yugoslavia's government" but obviously we all know that what winds up happening is that Yugoslavia ceases to exist and formally becomes 7+ different nations, which kind of makes the entire air campaign pointless presuming that still happens afterwards off screen. You win against Serbia but the government you were trying to prop up collapses anyways.

So now I'm curious, did the cities of Pancevo, Novi Sad, Sombor, or Becej really see any battlefield action? I suspect that even when there was war in the Balkans, that this part of Serbia stayed quiet. I can only find information about NATO having done damage to Novi Sad. Nothing about those other locations mentioned.
Last edited by Saiwania on Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:58 am

A quick and speedy end was needed to that bullshit going on in the Balkans, and even though the civilian death toll incurred by the operation was a tragedy in its own right, the greater effect of preventing an even greater slaughter and maybe even genocide.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:45 am

Agarntrop wrote:A thread discussing the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.
I know this means a lot to some people but please don't make cancerous comments or use the f word or anything worse. I can mark comments as cancerous by quoting comments and then saying 'marked as cancerous' and you must delete them.

I don't personally think merciful angel was justified, nearly 600 Serbs were killed over ethnic cleansing which was being commited by Yugoslavia. I mean, I'm not saying the ethnic cleansing didn't happen, but it was on the same scale as what NATO allies like Isreal or Saudi Arabia. So I'm not sure it was justified. However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified as they killed 600 innocent people doing so and it was hypocritical seeing what Isreal and Saudi Arabia were doing!

Fucking bombs are so fucking bullshit, you know? Whatever Goddamn fucking cunt decided to bomb shit was a fucking cock sucker.
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:58 am

Olthar wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:A thread discussing the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia.
I know this means a lot to some people but please don't make cancerous comments or use the f word or anything worse. I can mark comments as cancerous by quoting comments and then saying 'marked as cancerous' and you must delete them.

I don't personally think merciful angel was justified, nearly 600 Serbs were killed over ethnic cleansing which was being commited by Yugoslavia. I mean, I'm not saying the ethnic cleansing didn't happen, but it was on the same scale as what NATO allies like Isreal or Saudi Arabia. So I'm not sure it was justified. However, the conflict may have lasted much longer and killed much more innocent people if NATO didn't intervene but I don't think it was really that justified as they killed 600 innocent people doing so and it was hypocritical seeing what Isreal and Saudi Arabia were doing!

Fucking bombs are so fucking bullshit, you know? Whatever Goddamn fucking cunt decided to bomb shit was a fucking cock sucker.


Marked as cancerous remove that comment now!
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:59 am

Jute wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
Because they killed 600 innnocent people doing so.

Do you know how many people were killed by D-Day alone, including civilians?


Yes but NATO deliberately bombed civilian targets in order to damage the Serb tourism industry.
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:00 am

Torrocca wrote:A quick and speedy end was needed to that bullshit going on in the Balkans, and even though the civilian death toll incurred by the operation was a tragedy in its own right, the greater effect of preventing an even greater slaughter and maybe even genocide.


Yes it's difficult because the bombing did some horrific things but at the same time it may have prevented more horrific things in Kosovo.
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

Anti: Communism, Conservatism, facism, extreme religion, Nationalism, Trump, Putin, Erdougan, Assad, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Amejinihad (former Iranian president), Brexit, Euro, Racism.

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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:01 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Olthar wrote:Fucking bombs are so fucking bullshit, you know? Whatever Goddamn fucking cunt decided to bomb shit was a fucking cock sucker.


Marked as cancerous remove that comment now!

No can do, buddy. Users can't delete posts. Fuckin' shit.
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Torrocca
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:02 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Torrocca wrote:A quick and speedy end was needed to that bullshit going on in the Balkans, and even though the civilian death toll incurred by the operation was a tragedy in its own right, the greater effect of preventing an even greater slaughter and maybe even genocide.


Yes it's difficult because the bombing did some horrific things but at the same time it may have prevented more horrific things in Kosovo.


It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.
Last edited by Torrocca on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:04 am

Torrocca wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
Yes it's difficult because the bombing did some horrific things but at the same time it may have prevented more horrific things in Kosovo.


It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.


I've allways thought it was like Hiroshima and Nagasaki too!
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:05 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.


I've allways thought it was like Hiroshima and Nagasaki too!


Exactly, it's just that but on a tremendously smaller scale. Sometimes lesser evils are necessary, evil as they may be, to prevent greater evils.
Anarchy's my name AND my game. RAINBOW! Revolutionary Catalonia Forever! ^_^
"Al fascismo no se le discute, se le destruye/Fascism is not discussed, it is destroyed." - Buenaventura Durruti

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Agarntrop
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:05 am

Olthar wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
Marked as cancerous remove that comment now!

No can do, buddy. Users can't delete posts. Fuckin' shit.


Yes you can press the x button or just edit it.
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Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

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Agarntrop
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:07 am

Torrocca wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
Yes it's difficult because the bombing did some horrific things but at the same time it may have prevented more horrific things in Kosovo.


It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.


Could you please edit all the f**ks out of that?
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Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:08 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.


I've allways thought it was like Hiroshima and Nagasaki too!


(Although the difference is your for both I'm against both)
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

Anti: Communism, Conservatism, facism, extreme religion, Nationalism, Trump, Putin, Erdougan, Assad, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Amejinihad (former Iranian president), Brexit, Euro, Racism.

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Genivaria
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:10 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
It's like the nukes being dropped on Japan: fucking horrific in every Goddamn regard possible, but absolutely necessary to bring an end to the war and prevent any further bloodshed, especially in places like China where the bastards in the IJA were committing a fuckload of horrendous atrocities against the Chinese even until they surrendered.


Could you please edit all the f**ks out of that?

Motherfucking cussing is not against the fucking rules for fucks sake.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
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Genivaria
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:10 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Olthar wrote:Fucking bombs are so fucking bullshit, you know? Whatever Goddamn fucking cunt decided to bomb shit was a fucking cock sucker.


Marked as cancerous remove that comment now!

You don't get to police people's comments boyo.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Cultural nationalist, Social Democrat.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:10 am

Torrocca wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
I've allways thought it was like Hiroshima and Nagasaki too!


Exactly, it's just that but on a tremendously smaller scale. Sometimes lesser evils are necessary, evil as they may be, to prevent greater evils.


It was a cruel angel then! :rofl:
Last edited by Agarntrop on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

Anti: Communism, Conservatism, facism, extreme religion, Nationalism, Trump, Putin, Erdougan, Assad, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Amejinihad (former Iranian president), Brexit, Euro, Racism.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:11 am

Genivaria wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
Marked as cancerous remove that comment now!

You don't get to police people's comments boyo.


I give up *sigh*
Last edited by Agarntrop on Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

Anti: Communism, Conservatism, facism, extreme religion, Nationalism, Trump, Putin, Erdougan, Assad, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Amejinihad (former Iranian president), Brexit, Euro, Racism.

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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:11 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Genivaria wrote:You don't get to police people's comments boyo.


I give up

That's the first step.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Cultural nationalist, Social Democrat.

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Agarntrop
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Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:12 am

Genivaria wrote:
Agarntrop wrote:
I give up

That's the first step.


Look, we are here to discuss Yugoslavia bombing. NOT CURSING!
Agnostic- I believe that there can be nothing known of whether there is a god or not.
Pro: Socialism, feminism, Liberalism, Fatah (Palestinian political faction), YPG, Social Democracy, Obama, Abortion (mostly), Merkel, Macron, Rohani (Iranian President), EU, Openess.

Mixed: Gay marriage, Iran, Turkey, Isreal, Religion.

Anti: Communism, Conservatism, facism, extreme religion, Nationalism, Trump, Putin, Erdougan, Assad, Hamas, Saudi Arabia, Netanyahu, Amejinihad (former Iranian president), Brexit, Euro, Racism.

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Genivaria
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Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:13 am

The intervention in Yugoslavia wasn't to blame, it was the UN commanders who were told they could not actually intervene or fire on someone unless fired upon, effectively robbing them of the ability to do anything.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
Cultural nationalist, Social Democrat.

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