Vota Italia 2018...Parte Due(An Election Thread)

[Shrillland]

With the first major global election of the year(The Czech presidential vote) now heading to its second round, our eyes now turn for a time to another country having a vote in early March. Italy goes to the polls on March 4 to choose a new Chamber of Deputies and a new Senate. The current polls are showing that the Centre-left coalition led by Matteo Renzi's Democrats has, after a humiliating third-place finish in Sicilian elections in November, lost its lead to Beppe Grillo's Five Star Movement, which is known for being populist, anti-vaccine(a major party point for some reason), and eurosceptic. As a major transit point for refugees and immigrants, legal and illegal, from North Africa and the Middle East, immigration is certainly a major issue as is Italy's future in the EU.

Another group on the rise is the Centre-right coalition dominated by the gift that refuses to quit giving even long after your house is flooded with booze and strippers that you didn't particularly want in the first place, Silvio Berlusconi and his revived Forza Italia party. They've also become increasingly critical of the current government's approach to the immigration issue. Another major player in this group is the anti-immigrant and populist Northern League(LN).

There are also a number of smaller parties joining in, but let's meet the major ones!


Centre-Left Coalition led by Democratic Party(PD)-led by Matteo Renzi: Social Democratic, Pro-European, Christian Leftism

Centre-Right Coalition led by Forza Italia(FI)-Led By Silvio Berlusconi: Liberal Conservative, Slight-populist, Pro-EU

Northern League[Lega Nord](LN) and Us with Salvini(NcS)-led by Matteo Salvini: Eurosceptic, Populist, Anti-immigration, Regionalist

Brothers of Italy(Fdl)-led by Giorgia Meloni: National Conservative, Eurosceptic, Right-wing

Five Star Movement(M5S) led by Beppe Grillo(Parliamentary delegation led by Luigi DiMaio): Populist, Eurosceptic, Pro-Degrowth, Environmentalist, Soft Anti-immigration

Free and Equal(LeU) led by Pietro Grasso: Left-wing, Democratic Socialist, Progressive

Power to the People(PaP) led by Viola Carafalo: Communist, Eurosceptic, Libertarian Socialist

There are also other smaller parties running, if you like one, sound off!

So, NSG, what's your choice? Here's a way to help out: https://italia.isidewith.com/en/ Not the best, I know, but better than nothing.


I'm personally leaning for Renzi and his coalition myself, There's a lot about the M5S that I don't like, and haven't we gotten tired of hearing about Berlusconi's latest exploits? As for my iside with: https://italia.isidewith.com/en/results/3373943368

68% with the SEL...which no longer exists as a party. It now belongs to the Italian Left, which is part of LeU's coalition. I got the Democrats at 63% though, so it's something.

EDIT 1/20: At the advice of Kennlind, I've made a couple of alterations to the poll since LN and Fdl, while ostensibly part of the FI-led coalition, are polling well enough in their own rights that they could potentially take the leading role from FI. My apologies to all who voted previously.

EDIT 5/28: With the President all but rejecting the proposed coalition...and with the coalition now attempting to impeach the President, we will soon have election number two in Italy. I'm still standing by the Democrats, though I know that M5S will get a bigger share just because the electorate wants this over with.

[Baltenstein]

Policies-wise, when it comes to Italy, I usually support the pro-European, centre-left, Academic types (Prodi, Monti, Renzi). However, for some reason, the Italians themselves - who I am going to assume know more about their country than I do - seem to almost universally despise them. Nevertheless, I'd probably give my vote to the Centre-Left Coalition.

The sole reason for voting the Centre-Right-Coalition would be that the immature YOLO-troll hidden somewhere deep inside me (the Germans call it "the inner pig-dog") would find it hilarious to see Mumm-Ra, sorry, I meant Berlusconi, in power again. Bunga bunga!

Five Star Movement - voting for loud-mouthed, xenophobic, Pro-Putinist populists in the vein of Farage, Pegida and Le Pen? I don't think so.

Free and Equal: Look kinda appealing. The fact that they are led by an anti-Mafia prosecutor is a pro. However, I don't know enough about them.

Power to the People: Too hard-left, too euroskeptic. Nope.

Another Italian party that I used to like policies-wise was the Centrist "Italia dei valori" under Antonio di Pietro. I'm not sure if and on whose ticket they are running though.

[Trumptonium]

Either Berlusconi or Salvini, the latter of which you missed.

I think my vote would basically be an eenie meenie miney mo between Forza Italia and Lega Nord.

I would like to however see a few more bunga bunga parties before Berlusconi (who is the sprightly young age of 81) becomes too old. I also liked the unlikely brotherhood Berlusconi had with Putin. Let's face it, he was the bridge between the West and Russia and the world was much more peaceful when he was around to negotiate with Mr. KGB in his villa.

[Liriena]

The Movimento 5 Stelle is weird. I like their environmentalism and their support for direct democracy... but their economic policy is kinda meh.

Then there's Potere al Popolo... they had me at libertarian socialism.

I'll be crossing my fingers for a nice left-wing government and a sound defeat of Berlusconi and the Lega Nord.

[Major-Tom]

Either Berlusconi or Salvini, the latter of which you missed.

I think my vote would basically be an eenie meenie miney mo between Forza Italia and Lega Nord.

I would like to however see a few more bunga bunga parties before Berlusconi (who is the sprightly young age of 81) becomes too old. I also liked the unlikely brotherhood Berlusconi had with Putin. Let's face it, he was the bridge between the West and Russia and the world was much more peaceful when he was around to negotiate with Mr. KGB in his villa.

(Image)

Berlusconi? You're kidding.

[Trumptonium]

Either Berlusconi or Salvini, the latter of which you missed.

I think my vote would basically be an eenie meenie miney mo between Forza Italia and Lega Nord.

I would like to however see a few more bunga bunga parties before Berlusconi (who is the sprightly young age of 81) becomes too old. I also liked the unlikely brotherhood Berlusconi had with Putin. Let's face it, he was the bridge between the West and Russia and the world was much more peaceful when he was around to negotiate with Mr. KGB in his villa.

(Image)

Berlusconi? You're kidding.

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

[Bienenhalde]

Berlusconi's depraved sexual behavior reveals him to be a godless degenerate. True conservatives should not consider voting for his party.

[Baltenstein]

#SilvioDidNothingWrong2018

Berlusconi's depraved sexual behavior reveals him to be a godless degenerate. True conservatives should not consider voting for his party.

*looks at sig*

Sinophile-Japanophile

*looks at post*

godless degenerate

*looks back at sig*

Sinophile-Japanophile

*looks back at post*

godless degenerate

[Collatis]

I'm strongly in favor of Renzi and the Democratic Party. Berlusconi may be an embarrassment, but M5S is the real threat to Italian democracy this election. M5S is a cult of personality masquerading as a party, and a victory by them would be worse than even the return of the (now vegetarian!) Berlusconi.

[Somecoldwetislands]

I don't really understand what M5S are actually about, are they similar to other right-wing populist parties around the EU or are they distinct? I'd probably back Renzi, but not with masses of enthusiasm.

[Major-Tom]

Berlusconi? You're kidding.

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

Corrupt, bad for growth in the long term, and a bumbling incompetent mess who can change what he supports or he believes to retain his popularity.

But, granted, he is good for the memes.

[Liriena]

Berlusconi? You're kidding.

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

Yeah, no, Berlusconi can kiss my Italian-descended butt.

[Liriena]

I don't really understand what M5S are actually about, are they similar to other right-wing populist parties around the EU or are they distinct? I'd probably back Renzi, but not with masses of enthusiasm.

M5S is kinda different in that they put a lot of emphasis on direct democracy.

[Liriena]

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

Corrupt, bad for growth in the long term, and a bumbling incompetent mess who can change what he supports or he believes to retain his popularity.

But, granted, he is good for the memes.

Right-wing populism in a nutshell, really.

[Eibenland]

I'm in favor of the PD, though my enthusiasm for Renzi has cooled. Berlusconi can get stuffed and M5S makes no sense.

[Shrillland]

Either Berlusconi or Salvini, the latter of which you missed.

I think my vote would basically be an eenie meenie miney mo between Forza Italia and Lega Nord.

I would like to however see a few more bunga bunga parties before Berlusconi (who is the sprightly young age of 81) becomes too old. I also liked the unlikely brotherhood Berlusconi had with Putin. Let's face it, he was the bridge between the West and Russia and the world was much more peaceful when he was around to negotiate with Mr. KGB in his villa.

(Image)

I didn't miss Salvini, it's just that Lega Nord is part of the Centre-right Coalition. Anyone can say which party of a coalition they like, but the facts are that the leading roles will belong to PD and FI, respectively.

[Trumptonium]

I don't really understand what M5S are actually about, are they similar to other right-wing populist parties around the EU or are they distinct? I'd probably back Renzi, but not with masses of enthusiasm.

M5S are very distinct as they are not right-wing at all.

They take left-wing arguments against immigration (excess labour supply lowers wages and immigration undermines strength of unions) and otherwise they take traditional left of centre arguments against the EU forcing countries to be less transparent, less competitive, forcing trade deals etc

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

Corrupt, bad for growth in the long term, and a bumbling incompetent mess who can change what he supports or he believes to retain his popularity.

But, granted, he is good for the memes.

I mean, to be absolutely honest, I do not mind corruption at all in a below-optimally developed (relative to peers) state.

What's wrong with profiting off your policies if they genuinely bring growth to the country and greater welfare to all citizens?

If a country is Zimbabwean, no, absolutely, head on stake.

If a country has corruption but grows above trend and the growth reaches even the lowest sectors of society, I honestly don't mind a little man becoming a billionaire in the process.

It provides an incentive for good governance, actually.

It's one of the reasons why Putin is seen as the crusader against corruption, even though it's very clear he engages in it himself. He's brought large growth to his country (granted, much through exogenous factors i.e. oil prices) but he's spread that growth around the country. The average wage in Russia is above two EU members - Bulgaria and Romania - and GDP per capita (PPP) is just $200 less than Greece and above 4 EU countries. Some Korean politicians in the last 30 years (including the former Prime Minister) have also joined the government with an apartment and mysteriously left with a mansion. I don't see an issue with that. Corruption is only a problem if corruption itself hinders growth, or if you're developed enough to warrant transparency.

Heck, give Trump an incentive. The US economy grows at 3% when it's booming. Grow at 4% or more and you get access to 1% of the after-inflation increase in government revenues. That's a good 1-2 billion cash if he manages it, and in the process he'll make the US wealthier and get enough revenue to start on his infrastructure promise.

Growth? Not sure what you mean. The first time Berlusconi took power, he took Italy out of recession and to 4% growth. The second time he was hit by a European crisis but still managed to maintain growth and shorten a recession that lasted thrice as long in Germany in 2002. The third time in 2008 is rather self-explanatory. The first time he took power, he stopped national debt growth and reversed it down, which continued to go down until the second time he took power, when debt GDP reached 101% in 2004, its lowest point since the late 80s.

As for changing what you believe, it's fine. In fact, it should be encouraged. Being principled is a stupid thing. When the facts change, your opinion should change. Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. Use them to guide you but not rule you.

No why?

He wasn't bad in any way.

Yeah, no, Berlusconi can kiss my Italian-descended butt.

Berlusconi will turn Italy into Japan v2 and you'll be banned from returning

Either Berlusconi or Salvini, the latter of which you missed.

I think my vote would basically be an eenie meenie miney mo between Forza Italia and Lega Nord.

I would like to however see a few more bunga bunga parties before Berlusconi (who is the sprightly young age of 81) becomes too old. I also liked the unlikely brotherhood Berlusconi had with Putin. Let's face it, he was the bridge between the West and Russia and the world was much more peaceful when he was around to negotiate with Mr. KGB in his villa.

(Image)

I didn't miss Salvini, it's just that Lega Nord is part of the Centre-right Coalition. Anyone can say which party of a coalition they like, but the facts are that the leading roles will belong to PD and FI, respectively.

Lega Nord hasn't agreed to FI's proposal of the coalition.

And I don't see how the leading role is for FI - Lega Nord has been above Forza Italia for 3 of the last 5 years. It's only fallen behind barely two months ago. It's stupid to suggest that FI will lead anything if LN has more seats. Berlusconi might end up PM and as a media strongman but he won't be the puppetmaster if LN gets more seats, which is likely as LN vote is localised while FI is spread across the country.

1) M5S
2) PD
3) FI
4) LN

[Shrillland]

Well, 13.4% is a good showing, to be sure, but LN-NcS is still primarily seen as a regional party whilst FI still has a larger presence in the south. I doubt that LN-NcS will want to sacrifice being part of a coalition when the voting's all said and done, though they could well take the lead, I grant you.

Oh, and by the way...

As for changing what you believe, it's fine. In fact, it should be encouraged. Being principled is a stupid thing. When the facts change, your opinion should change. Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. Use them to guide you but not rule you.

You've no idea how glad I am to hear someone else say that.

[Greed and Death]

Only Berlesconi can save Italy's membership in the EU.

[Kennlind]

I support the Five Star Movement but I have sympathies for the FdI too, as they're eurosceptic.

I'd recommend you change the poll to be more inclusive to other parties and not so broad.
Centre-Left Coalition is fine since the Democratic Party is the only large party in that, the others are sitting <2% in the polls, but centre-right coalition is too broad... Forza Italia are only a couple of points ahead of Lega Nord, and Fratelli d'Italia are doing better than the rest of the smaller centre-left coalition combined. To add to that, the Popular Civic List are included under the banner of the Centre-Left Coalition when they're a separate coalition.
I'd include;
-PD/Centre-Left
-FI/Centre-Right
-M5S
-LN
-LEU
-FdI
-PCL

[Trumptonium]

Well, 13.4% is a good showing, to be sure, but LN-NcS is still primarily seen as a regional party whilst FI still has a larger presence in the south. I doubt that LN-NcS will want to sacrifice being part of a coalition when the voting's all said and done, though they could well take the lead, I grant you.

Oh, and by the way...

As for changing what you believe, it's fine. In fact, it should be encouraged. Being principled is a stupid thing. When the facts change, your opinion should change. Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. Use them to guide you but not rule you.

You've no idea how glad I am to hear someone else say that.

Which is the point I made - a regional party with 15% nationally is obviously going to get more seats than a national party with 15% nationally.

It inherently implies that the former will have much more than 15% in the regions they are standing, whereas the 15% of the latter party is spread across the entire nation, making it less likely for them to be elected.

NcS, its sister party is not doing too well. Even so, they have 7 seats in the Lower House, which is more than some of the parties in the poll. The main Lega Nord party has 19.

I think the likelihood of Lega Nord having more seats in the Lower House than Forza Italia is quite probable, hence, Silvio Berlusconi won't be a strongman that he was. He'll inevitably give Salvini some important ceremonial post and his opinion will sway the government (if) heavily.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

#anyoneButRenzi

[Collatis]

Berlusconi might end up PM and as a media strongman but he won't be the puppetmaster if LN gets more seats, which is likely as LN vote is localised while FI is spread across the country.

Reminder that Berlusconi is still barred from running for office. Unless his appeal to the courts succeeds and comes in much earlier than expected, Berlusconi will not serve as PM until at least 2019.

[Trumptonium]

Berlusconi might end up PM and as a media strongman but he won't be the puppetmaster if LN gets more seats, which is likely as LN vote is localised while FI is spread across the country.

Reminder that Berlusconi is still barred from running for office. Unless his appeal to the courts succeeds and comes in much earlier than expected, Berlusconi will not serve as PM until at least 2019.

He'll be a Prime Minister without a swearing-in ceremony, what's the difference.

If Germany can function without a cabinet for 4 months and Belgium can function without a government for 1.5 years, Italy can function with a quasi-PM puppetmaster for a year.

It's up to the Lower House to elect him anyway and if I remember correctly, entering the Lower House gives you legal immunity in Italy.

[Geilinor]

Reminder that Berlusconi is still barred from running for office. Unless his appeal to the courts succeeds and comes in much earlier than expected, Berlusconi will not serve as PM until at least 2019.

He'll be a Prime Minister without a swearing-in ceremony, what's the difference.

If Germany can function without a cabinet for 4 months and Belgium can function without a government for 1.5 years, Italy can function with a quasi-PM puppetmaster for a year.

It's up to the Lower House to elect him anyway and if I remember correctly, entering the Lower House gives you legal immunity in Italy.

Berlusconi cannot run for any political office, including the Lower House, until 2019.