NATION

PASSWORD

The Least Blind Group Will Win

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)
User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

The Least Blind Group Will Win

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:10 pm

The Libertarian Party (LP) has never won. But check this out…

https://www.lp.org/help-choose-theme-for-2018-convention/

Scroll down on that page and you’ll be able to see the actual demand for the different potential themes for their 2018 convention. We can see, in dollar amounts, just how important/relevant/valuable each theme is. We can see more! Being able to see more means being less blind! And whichever group is the least blind will win!

I’m pretty sure that markets work because they allow us to see the demand for things. In markets… people are less blind. The economic decisions they make more accurately reflect the rarity of resources in conditions and circumstances that are complex and constantly changing.

The LP is, in theory, the party that’s most supportive of markets. Now they are even allowing the market to choose the theme for their 2018 convention! If the LP allows the market to guide its biggest decisions then it will be the least blind group by far. And whichever group is the least blind will win!

Does anybody know of any other examples of surveys where voting has been replaced with spending? Do these type of surveys have a technical name?

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:19 pm

Unfortunately, by forcing people to pay to express their preference, they are blind to certain information available to those not behind a paywall.


Then again, this concept is so libertarian, I can't help but be disappointed the libertarian party didn't think of it sooner.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Neutraligon
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 25687
Founded: Oct 01, 2011
New York Times Democracy

Postby Neutraligon » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:23 pm

Seems to me this could simply be a measure of how much money a person already has.
If you want to call me by a nickname, call me Gon...or NS Batman.

User avatar
Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16884
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:27 pm

yeah, they just want money because as a general rule libertarians really like money. they don't care if it's an effective way of actually gauging opinion and any positive side effects from it (of which there will be little) will be a complete coincidence.
Last edited by Souseiseki on Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
T <---- THE INFAMOUS T

User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:51 pm

Galloism wrote:Unfortunately, by forcing people to pay to express their preference, they are blind to certain information available to those not behind a paywall.

But shouldn't those members who spend more money to keep the LP alive have more say over its decisions? Isn't that kinda the same premise with shareholders?

Galloism wrote:Then again, this concept is so libertarian, I can't help but be disappointed the libertarian party didn't think of it sooner.

Me too! It's kinda rare when we agree. We should commorate this special occasion with applause... :clap:

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:59 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:Unfortunately, by forcing people to pay to express their preference, they are blind to certain information available to those not behind a paywall.

But shouldn't those members who spend more money to keep the LP alive have more say over its decisions? Isn't that kinda the same premise with shareholders?


No.

If you bought a few thousand dollars worth of apple shares back in the 80s, you'd have more say than people who bought many many millions worth of shares now.

Galloism wrote:Then again, this concept is so libertarian, I can't help but be disappointed the libertarian party didn't think of it sooner.

Me too! It's kinda rare when we agree. We should commorate this special occasion with applause... :clap:

I seriously doubt that we agree on anything except "this is extremely libertarian". While it is an observation we can probably both agree on, the value judgements are very very different.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:11 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:But shouldn't those members who spend more money to keep the LP alive have more say over its decisions? Isn't that kinda the same premise with shareholders?


No.

If you bought a few thousand dollars worth of apple shares back in the 80s, you'd have more say than people who bought many many millions worth of shares now.

Let's pretend that, for whatever reason, you own .0000001% of my house and I own the rest. Are you arguing that we should have an equal say over the color that I paint the house?

Galloism wrote:
Me too! It's kinda rare when we agree. We should commorate this special occasion with applause... :clap:

I seriously doubt that we agree on anything except "this is extremely libertarian". While it is an observation we can probably both agree on, the value judgements are very very different.

We agree that...

1. The idea is very libertarian
2. It's disappointing that the LP didn't think of it sooner

This is the most that we've ever agreed! :clap:

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:13 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:
No.

If you bought a few thousand dollars worth of apple shares back in the 80s, you'd have more say than people who bought many many millions worth of shares now.

Let's pretend that, for whatever reason, you own .0000001% of my house and I own the rest. Are you arguing that we should have an equal say over the color that I paint the house?


No, but that's about ownership and control, not investment.

I would think the same if you spent $1 million for your 99.9999999% of the house, and I came along some years later and spent $2 million on the other 0.0000001%.

Galloism wrote:I seriously doubt that we agree on anything except "this is extremely libertarian". While it is an observation we can probably both agree on, the value judgements are very very different.

We agree that...

1. The idea is very libertarian
2. It's disappointing that the LP didn't think of it sooner

This is the most that we've ever agreed! :clap:

I guess.

Of course, I think the Libertarian party, as an organization, is basically full of fail, whereas you are probably thinking it's a great idea.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:36 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Let's pretend that, for whatever reason, you own .0000001% of my house and I own the rest. Are you arguing that we should have an equal say over the color that I paint the house?


No, but that's about ownership and control, not investment.

I would think the same if you spent $1 million for your 99.9999999% of the house, and I came along some years later and spent $2 million on the other 0.0000001%.

The issue is whether pay should equal say. From my perspective, the more money that you donate to the LP, the more influence that you should have over its direction. If you donate $0 dollars to the LP and I donate $1,000,000 to the LP... it would be ludicrous for us to have equal influence over the theme for their 2018 convention. If it wasn't for my donation, then there probably wouldn't even be a 2018 convention.

Galloism wrote:
We agree that...

1. The idea is very libertarian
2. It's disappointing that the LP didn't think of it sooner

This is the most that we've ever agreed! :clap:

I guess.

Of course, I think the Libertarian party, as an organization, is basically full of fail, whereas you are probably thinking it's a great idea.

Well I'm not a libertarian. But how could the LP possibly be full of fail if its big decisions are determined by the market?

Is Uber full of fail for transitioning to robot-driven cars? The market is responsible for answering this question. If the market actually makes the big decisions... then clearly there's going to be a lot less chance of fail. The market is probably not going to disapprove of a decision that IT made.

The market is probably not going to smack the LP for a decision that the MARKET itself made. The market is choosing the LP's convention theme. So how is the LP going to lose funding for having a theme that was chosen by the market? In theory, it should be the other way around. By having the most valuable theme, the LP itself becomes more valuable, which means that people will donate more money to it. If these donors can use their contributions to help determine the LP's direction... then it will be a virtuous cycle. The LP will quickly become the most valuable party. And then it will finally win.

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:40 pm

Xerographica wrote:The issue is whether pay should equal say. From my perspective, the more money that you donate to the LP, the more influence that you should have over its direction. If you donate $0 dollars to the LP and I donate $1,000,000 to the LP... it would be ludicrous for us to have equal influence over the theme for their 2018 convention. If it wasn't for my donation, then there probably wouldn't even be a 2018 convention.


In which case, you wouldn't let shareholder votes go by number shares. You would let them go by purchase price OF the shares.

Not sure how that would affect things. I'd have to ruminate on that for a while. It probably would mean corporate owners would very quickly lose control after going public, no matter how many shares they owned.

Not sure how that would affect things.
Galloism wrote:I guess.

Of course, I think the Libertarian party, as an organization, is basically full of fail, whereas you are probably thinking it's a great idea.

Well I'm not a libertarian. But how could the LP possibly be full of fail if its big decisions are determined by the market?


Look at the last election. Despite running against the two most unpopular candidates in modern history, and getting plenty of coverage of their guys, they only grabbed 3% of the vote.

Is Uber full of fail for transitioning to robot-driven cars? The market is responsible for answering this question. If the market actually makes the big decisions... then clearly there's going to be a lot less chance of fail. The market is probably not going to disapprove of a decision that IT made.

The market is probably not going to smack the LP for a decision that the MARKET itself made. The market is choosing the LP's convention theme. So how is the LP going to lose funding for having a theme that was chosen by the market? In theory, it should be the other way around. By having the most valuable theme, the LP itself becomes more valuable, which means that people will donate more money to it. If these donors can use their contributions to help determine the LP's direction... then it will be a virtuous cycle. The LP will quickly become the most valuable party. And then it will finally win.

This is just more of the insane blabble that we're all used to.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:51 pm

Galloism wrote:
The market is probably not going to smack the LP for a decision that the MARKET itself made. The market is choosing the LP's convention theme. So how is the LP going to lose funding for having a theme that was chosen by the market? In theory, it should be the other way around. By having the most valuable theme, the LP itself becomes more valuable, which means that people will donate more money to it. If these donors can use their contributions to help determine the LP's direction... then it will be a virtuous cycle. The LP will quickly become the most valuable party. And then it will finally win.

This is just more of the insane blabble that we're all used to.

Yeah, it might be insane... but it would help if you could be more specific...

1. The market is choosing the LP's theme
2. The market will choose the most valuable theme for the LP
3. Having the most valuable theme will increase the value of the LP

Are any of these arguments insane? If so, which ones? And... why, exactly, are they insane?

User avatar
The Sauganash Union
Diplomat
 
Posts: 742
Founded: Mar 08, 2017
Capitalist Paradise

Postby The Sauganash Union » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:55 pm

Make political parties limited liability partnerships again.
American. Presbyterian. College-aged. Old Right conservative.
⋆⋆⋆ NATIVE. AMERICAИS. BEWARE OF FOREIGИ. IИFLUEИCE. ⋆⋆⋆
For ourselves and our posterity.

User avatar
Internationalist Bastard
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13509
Founded: Aug 09, 2015
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:01 pm

So basically, let's fix the system by literally having businessmen decide politics
Call me Alex, I insist
I am a girl, damnit
Slut Pride
Always click tentacles
Feel Free to TG me, I'm bored and lonely

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:33 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:This is just more of the insane blabble that we're all used to.

Yeah, it might be insane... but it would help if you could be more specific...

1. The market is choosing the LP's theme
2. The market will choose the most valuable theme for the LP
3. Having the most valuable theme will increase the value of the LP

Are any of these arguments insane? If so, which ones? And... why, exactly, are they insane?

1, 2, and 3, specifically.

This is not a market, first off, as nothing is being exchanged.

Second, even if it were, there's no reason to assume this "market" (used in quotes because it's not really a market) will result in the most valuable choice being made, given the people who would actually donate to this probably mostly don't have a firm grasp of politics in the first place, given they're backing a horse that can't win.

Third, even if "the most valuable choice" is chosen, it doesn't change the electoral math. The system is very harsh to third parties, because this is how math works. A catchy slogan for the LP is like trying to propel a jumbo jet by farting out the back. Sure technically a fart creates thrust, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but if you get an extra nanometer of distance you should probably see a doctor.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23490
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:45 pm

Galloism wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Yeah, it might be insane... but it would help if you could be more specific...

1. The market is choosing the LP's theme
2. The market will choose the most valuable theme for the LP
3. Having the most valuable theme will increase the value of the LP

Are any of these arguments insane? If so, which ones? And... why, exactly, are they insane?

1, 2, and 3, specifically.

This is not a market, first off, as nothing is being exchanged.

Second, even if it were, there's no reason to assume this "market" (used in quotes because it's not really a market) will result in the most valuable choice being made, given the people who would actually donate to this probably mostly don't have a firm grasp of politics in the first place, given they're backing a horse that can't win.

Third, even if "the most valuable choice" is chosen, it doesn't change the electoral math. The system is very harsh to third parties, because this is how math works. A catchy slogan for the LP is like trying to propel a jumbo jet by farting out the back. Sure technically a fart creates thrust, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but if you get an extra nanometer of distance you should probably see a doctor.



Gallo, I'm insulted :p

User avatar
Galloism
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47997
Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:48 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Galloism wrote:1, 2, and 3, specifically.

This is not a market, first off, as nothing is being exchanged.

Second, even if it were, there's no reason to assume this "market" (used in quotes because it's not really a market) will result in the most valuable choice being made, given the people who would actually donate to this probably mostly don't have a firm grasp of politics in the first place, given they're backing a horse that can't win.

Third, even if "the most valuable choice" is chosen, it doesn't change the electoral math. The system is very harsh to third parties, because this is how math works. A catchy slogan for the LP is like trying to propel a jumbo jet by farting out the back. Sure technically a fart creates thrust, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but if you get an extra nanometer of distance you should probably see a doctor.



Gallo, I'm insulted :p

I qualified with a "mostly".
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


User avatar
Lady Scylla
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14207
Founded: Nov 22, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:33 pm

Galloism wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:

Gallo, I'm insulted :p

I qualified with a "mostly".


I wouldn't vote for him. >.>
FutureTech RolePlayer
No wit here

22 year old Bipolar Centrist Pragmatic Welsh-American

User avatar
The East Marches II
Senator
 
Posts: 4343
Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The East Marches II » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:06 pm

Warthunder, World of Tanks and Life are all already pay2win. I don't see anything wrong about applying it to politics. Inb4 you have to purchase LiberCoins which have a strange exchange rate to vote for party stuff.
Kvatchdom wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Their ties are well known. Its the same as trusting Al-Jazeera when it is funded by the Qataris. Propaganda companies will always say what the state backer wants.

I know, was doing a thing on you. The creator is a 9/11 truther :D

User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:36 pm

Galloism wrote:This is not a market, first off, as nothing is being exchanged.

Money is being exchanged for warm fuzzies... so it is a market.

Galloism wrote:Second, even if it were, there's no reason to assume this "market" (used in quotes because it's not really a market) will result in the most valuable choice being made, given the people who would actually donate to this probably mostly don't have a firm grasp of politics in the first place, given they're backing a horse that can't win.

You derive value from participating on this forum. This is true regardless of your grasp of politics or economics. How much value do you derive from participating on this forum? Obviously I can't know this. Only you can know this.

One way we reveal how much value we get from something is by our willingness to pay for it. So when I say that the market will choose the most valuable LP theme, I'm arguing that donors will spend their money on whichever theme will provide them with the greatest value.

Galloism wrote:Third, even if "the most valuable choice" is chosen, it doesn't change the electoral math. The system is very harsh to third parties, because this is how math works. A catchy slogan for the LP is like trying to propel a jumbo jet by farting out the back. Sure technically a fart creates thrust, every action has an equal and opposite reaction, but if you get an extra nanometer of distance you should probably see a doctor.

If being a member of the LP provides people with more value than being a member of the DP or RP... then clearly the political system will change accordingly.

Let's think about two stores... Libertad and Nolibertad. In Libertad shoppers can decide how much money they spend on the different products. In Nolibertad the shoppers can't decide how much money they spend on the different products. So what's going to happen? In Libertad, shoppers are going to spend their money on the most valuable products. Libertad will constantly replace less valuable products with more valuable products. But in Nonlibertad, the less valuable products aren't going to be constantly replaced with more valuable products. Because, how will Nonlibertad actually know the value of its products?

Libertad will be the least blind store. Therefore, it will win.

User avatar
Lady Scylla
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14207
Founded: Nov 22, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:43 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Galloism wrote:This is not a market, first off, as nothing is being exchanged.

Money is being exchanged for warm fuzzies... so it is a market.


Erm. No. That's just a transaction. Markets are sectors involving thousands of transactions from numerous sources. And a transaction only happens if money is being exchanged for good, services, or financial assets. If money is being given expecting a return of either financial or other favours, it is an investment.
FutureTech RolePlayer
No wit here

22 year old Bipolar Centrist Pragmatic Welsh-American

User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:52 pm

Lady Scylla wrote:
Xerographica wrote:Money is being exchanged for warm fuzzies... so it is a market.


Erm. No. That's just a transaction. Markets are sectors involving thousands of transactions from numerous sources. And a transaction only happens if money is being exchanged for good, services, or financial assets. If money is being given expecting a return of either financial or other favours, it is an investment.


On CharityNavigator... you can shop around for a non-profit that is going to give you the most warm fuzzies for your dollars. So it's the market that decides how much money PETA gets. Just like it's the market that decides how much money each LP theme gets. Because it's certainly not up to the LP to decide how much money each theme gets.

User avatar
Lady Scylla
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14207
Founded: Nov 22, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Lady Scylla » Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:58 pm

Xerographica wrote:
Lady Scylla wrote:
Erm. No. That's just a transaction. Markets are sectors involving thousands of transactions from numerous sources. And a transaction only happens if money is being exchanged for good, services, or financial assets. If money is being given expecting a return of either financial or other favours, it is an investment.


On CharityNavigator... you can shop around for a non-profit that is going to give you the most warm fuzzies for your dollars. So it's the market that decides how much money PETA gets. Just like it's the market that decides how much money each LP theme gets. Because it's certainly not up to the LP to decide how much money each theme gets.


That is still not a market. Warm fuzzies are not goods, services, or financial assets -- and therefore not a transaction.
FutureTech RolePlayer
No wit here

22 year old Bipolar Centrist Pragmatic Welsh-American

User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:05 am

Lady Scylla wrote:
Xerographica wrote:
On CharityNavigator... you can shop around for a non-profit that is going to give you the most warm fuzzies for your dollars. So it's the market that decides how much money PETA gets. Just like it's the market that decides how much money each LP theme gets. Because it's certainly not up to the LP to decide how much money each theme gets.


That is still not a market. Warm fuzzies are not goods, services, or financial assets -- and therefore not a transaction.

Clearly the LP isn't deciding how much money is being allocated to each theme. Therefore, that rules out the Visible Hand. According to you, the market isn't deciding how much money is being allocated to each theme. Therefore, the Invisible Hand is also ruled out. Which leaves?

User avatar
Uiiop
Senator
 
Posts: 3613
Founded: Jun 20, 2012
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Uiiop » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:05 am

Let's see if there will be some troll donations....

User avatar
Xerographica
Minister
 
Posts: 3211
Founded: Aug 15, 2012
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Xerographica » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:12 am

Uiiop wrote:Let's see if there will be some troll donations....


It would have been awesome if themes could have been suggested for a minimum donation of $20 bucks. How much money would "Libertarians Should Move To Somalia!" have received?

Next

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: -Ocelot-, AiliailiA, Bears Armed, Calladan, Cambia, Ethel mermania, Gauthier, Google [Bot], Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States, Hakons, Immoren, Izandai, Jazz Commies and Sexy Astrophysicists, Minzerland II, Outer Sparta, Pasong Tirad, Pax Athena, Perseid Federation, Proctopeo, Skyhooked, Soldati Senza Confini, Swith Witherward, The Flutterlands, Washington Resistance Army, Yortium Allanstan

Remove ads