We Are Not Predators, and You Are Not Prey

[Crushing Our Enemies]

This is a place for raiders to make their peace with the NationStates world. A place to say what needs to be said about Predator, and your part in it. Whether you used Predator or not, participated in raids that were triggered by Predator, or stood by and said nothing. If you are so moved, this may be a place for apologies. It may also be a place for contrition, shock, or anger at your deception by those you trusted. Feel free to address your comments to your fellow raiders, to defenders at large, to the site owners or moderators, to DOS players who you once associated with, or to the world. All I ask is that you speak honestly, and speak only for yourself. This is not a place to make excuses for your organization or region, nor a place to shift blame onto other people. If you feel that there is nothing on your conscience, and nothing you need to say, I ask that you simply do not post at all.

For those who are not raiders, I ask that you remain silent while we say our piece, and listen to what we have to say - for now. Once we've gotten the ball rolling, it may be appropriate to start a dialogue, but for now, there are other threads where that is already taking place.

---

This is what I will say on my own behalf:

It is fitting that it was called Predator, because it preyed on the good faith of NationStates that we would play by the rules and achieve our victories fair and square. If that trust had not existed, then it would have been reported long ago. As it was, that trust was betrayed for years, and now we may never get the benefit of the doubt ever again.

Several years ago, I want to say 2009 or 2010, I used a tool that was created by Halcones - the first and only such tool I ever used. It was an excel spreadsheet that had no communication with the NS site. The information from the daily dump was manually pasted in by the user, and the update times of several early regions were entered by hand. This populated approximate update times for every other region in the world, with color-coded rows indicating whether they were founderless, passworded, had delegates, or various other pieces of relevant information for tag runs. As I recall, the next generation of it used a macro that updated the information from the dump, but I was never able to get that version to work on my computer.

I don't know how we got from there to here, but clearly several things went very very wrong. For my part, I knew that Predator was purportedly the most advanced tag raiding tool that had ever come along. I didn't know how it worked, and I never used it, nor did I ask anyone questions about its legality. I knew that it was created by a DOS player, and I disapproved of its use after that player was deleted. My disapproval, while appropriate, was insufficient. I should have taken more concrete steps to ensure that no one was breaking the rules by using it, especially when its users included members of my home region. I should have reminded everyone that the creator of Predator, being banned from the site, had nothing to lose by distributing illegal tools and letting others take the punishment for using them. I could have advised caution, and restricted the tool's use until we could conclusively determine its legality. For not doing that, I apologize:

1. I am sorry to those members of my home region who were duped into cheating. As a leader, I should have been looking out for you.
2. I am sorry to everyone affected by raids that were triggered by Predator. Your losses were not deserved, and I should have done more to ensure a level playing field.
3. I am sorry to the admins and moderators, because I am part of a community that let ambition trample our caution and good sense.

There is no place in this game for predators and prey. We should properly be adversaries, each with a shot at a victory that comes from our own skill, training, and organization. Those were once the terms of our game - I hope we will someday find that game again.

EDIT: I also ask that if someone makes a post that doesn't belong here, please don't respond. Let's just do our thing.

[Shadoke]

As a young TBR private I knew about the Predator tool from heresay, and seen it in action through the triggerers on raids. It was something that drive me to want to rise in the ranks to get a hold of.
Looking back now, I wish I never had a part in TBR.

[Aurum Rider]

I completely agree with what COE said above. I feel awful that for nearly two years we were playing with a completely unfair advantage, and that I was blinded by (what we now know are) our hollow victories into not even questioning how predator worked, or whether it was legal. It makes me feel even more ashamed that we'd flaunt victories with predator, and boast about them.

Like COE, I'm sorry to Defenders and Natives. We raiders really dropped the ball, and you suffered so much for it.

[We Are Not the NSA]

On August 14, 2015, I sent Halcones a message via Skype asking if I could have access to Predator. I never received a response, which has kept my "I have never actually had a conversation with Halcones" streak alive. At the time, Predator was the go to script for triggering, and there was no reason to question its legality. To be entirely honest, I had no idea what it was, or how scripts work, and I am convinced that had I accessed it I would not have been able to get it to work, let alone figure out what it does. So, tl;dr: I've never used a script before, let alone an illegal one.

Now that I've finished the cya portion of my statement: since last August, I have become much more familiar with the concept of scripts and what they can do. That said, the more I've learned about them, the less I have trusted them, especially Predator. The reason I never sent my request to Halcones a second time after the first was that I became uncomfortable with the concept of going to a DOS player for access to something that I didn't fully understand, especially when a different type of that something was what was responsible for the player's DOS in the first place. Frankly, I'm a bit disappointed in my peers for being so trusting, but I don't blame them, especially the younger generation of players who have become accustomed to using Predator. I can't speak for those who have been around longer than I have, and I won't try to, but I will defend the newer players whom I have watched grow in skill over the past two years.

I was a member of the Cimmerian raid chat, however, to be entirely honest I have never considered myself a member of Cimmeria, and I rarely ever participated in said chat. I did watch it though, because despite the fact that I had no authority to keep people from joining it, I highly disapproved of the fact that Halcones, a DOS player, was a member of the chat, and wanted to keep an eye on things. I'm not saying that Cora is to blame for this issue, however I have seen him repeatedly praise and advocate for the Predator script, while simultaneously allowing the DOS player whose permission is required to use said script access to the same chat. I know I am not the only person who was uncomfortable with Cora's popularity amongst newer raiders, mostly because of his bad attitude, and repeated times he has indirectly insulted me, but also for the clear lack of remorse he has always had for rule breaking. I never admitted this openly, but that time Cora attempted to commit suicide by mod was a moment of relief for me.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I had to name a single factor that led to the widespread use of this illegal script in the past few months, it was the Cimmeria chat. DEN stopped distributing Predator a few months ago, and has switched over to the less accurate, but more legal Elite tool, while Predator has continued to be advocated in that circle of players. I feel that the players who have popularized the use of the tool in the past few months should show some personal accountability for their actions, but I am under the belief that most of them have been taken advantage of by a more experienced "member" of the raider community, who has admitted in this very forum that he was completely aware that Predator was illegal, and not only continued to use it, but gave a DOS player an easy medium through which to distribute it. As COE said, the title of Predator seems fitting.

And, in case anyone is wondering why I seem to be placing all of the blame on one specific ex-member of the raider community, I am doing it because Cora is the only person whom I am 100% certain knew that the script was illegal. I'm sure there were others, but I have no way of knowing who they could be, so instead of throwing accusations around, I've decided to focus on the only individual whom I know deserves to be blamed. I believe in innocent until proven guilty, so until further evidence is presented, I will not participate in the baseless accusation flinging that has been happening over the past few days. Anyone who used the script but didn't know it was illegal made a mistake as far as I am concerned.

Closing:

Dear raiders,
I hope we can approach this matter in a civil way. Despite the fact that all of the blame is being placed on DEN, there were many members of other groups who have used Predator as well. This is the exact scenario that Raider Unity is needed for: we need to come together as a community (not as a lose collection of groups) and fix this problem. We need to figure out who used Predator, who knew it was illegal, and we need to punish them. The only reason that our kind are allowed to use the site is because we are technically following the rules. How often is the phrase "Raiding is not illegal" uttered? By breaking the site rules we are essentially spitting in the faces of the moderators and admins who allow us to continue playing the game the way we want to. If you know anything that could be of value to moderation, submit it. If you know that someone has continued to use Predator after this is over, report them. By trying to cover this up we are behaving in the exact way that we are so often accused of behaving. Just because we are constantly being told that we are evil bastards does not mean that that is what we are. In conclusion, I am sorry that I knew something was not right and did not voice my concerns. It was irresponsible, and I will not allow it to happen again.

Dear defenders,
I'm sorry. I should have acted on my suspicions sooner, or at the very least listened to those of you who have questioned Predator's legality in the past. I had always bought into the assumption that it was butthurt or something, but you guys were right. I have always claimed that I respect you guys, yet I ignored your attempts to bring attention to what was right in front of me for months. You guys deserve better than this, and I am truly sorry for what we have done to you. I have in the past demonstrated that I am perfectly willing to report other raiders for rules violations (I have actually reported 2 other raiders for non-relevant violations in the past 24 hours) and I promise that any information that I become aware of that is worth moderator knowledge will be turned it in. I ask that you have patience and allow an internal investigation to be conducted, instead of speculating on what else could be going on. I understand why you are upset with this situation, and I want you to know that I am just as, if not more, upset at the thought of my friends purposely breaking site rules than you are. I am not alone in my disappointment with this debacle and I believe that anything worthy of being aired will be soon.

Dear natives,
So... You guys aren't my friends like other raiders are, and I don't respect you like I do with defenders, but I suppose you deserve an apology to (that was a joke). I'll keep this brief: I'm sorry that I have indirectly aided in the use of illegal tools to raid your regions. I will be sure to not cheat next time (that was also a joke). You guys have enough to deal with without raiders using illegal methods to attack you, and while I will probably continue raiding after this is over, I need you to know that I don't do it just to mess up your shit but because I enjoy it, and you deserve a fighting chance.

Dear mods/admins,
I respect the hell out of you guys, and I think you deserve an apology just as much as anyone else. While this just a game for me, it is also a job for you, and you guys don't even get paid. You do what you do because you love the NS community, and as I said earlier this situation is essentially an entire subgroup of that community spitting in your faces. I hope I represent a majority of the raiding community when I tell you that we are sorry, and we will do everything in our power to keep this from happening again.

Doubtfully,
NSA (see what I did there? )

[King Nephmir II]

I always knew there was something up with the Raider community, however I never really realized just how widespread the corruption was. It makes me hesitant to continue on as a Raider, and not go back to the days when I fought against them, to be quite frank. I had thought that tag raiding would slowly end with the collapse of TBR.

That said, had I successfully obtained the tool back before I had knowledge over spreadsheets, I'd probably have used it too, without realizing it was illegal. What disgusts me about all of this is not that certain Raider leaders were cheating (cheaters are everywhere, it happens), but that they willingly mislead other Raiders into cheating as well.

I don't like it when people take advantage of newer players' ignorance. Pisses me off more than anything else.

[Zaolat]

I've helped TBR with a few raids that probably used Predator, and Bob (pre-DoS) triggered for me for one of my own raids. If Predator was involved with those I apologize for my participation.

I've been too busy irl this past year to raid, laptop is now garbage, it's too much a hassle on my phone anyways.

Any raiders who haven't filed a GHR to mod/admin should and all else should speak up against cheating the game system just to tag a few regions.

[Loftegen]

For those who are not raiders, I ask that you remain silent while we say our piece, and listen to what we have to say - for now. Once we've gotten the ball rolling, it may be appropriate to start a dialogue, but for now, there are other threads where that is already taking place.

EDIT: I also ask that if someone makes a post that doesn't belong here, please don't respond. Let's just do our thing.

This is at once hysterically funny, incredibly hypocritical, and amazingly ironic, coming from a raider.

[RiderSyl]

For those who are not raiders, I ask that you remain silent while we say our piece, and listen to what we have to say - for now. Once we've gotten the ball rolling, it may be appropriate to start a dialogue, but for now, there are other threads where that is already taking place.

EDIT: I also ask that if someone makes a post that doesn't belong here, please don't respond. Let's just do our thing.

This is at once hysterically funny, incredibly hypocritical, and amazingly ironic, coming from a raider.

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

[Cormactopia II]

I'm honestly really angry, with pretty much everyone who used Predator, whether you knew it violated site rules or not. You should have known, particularly after the collapse of The Black Riders for the use of illegal scripts. You should have made an effort to find out. You should have stopped using it until you knew whether it was legal or not.

I'm angry that I'm going to be lumped in with cheating, despite never using Predator. I'm angry that some of Predator's most avid users don't even consider me a real raider because of how many times I've changed alignments, but because I'm a raider now, I'll be lumped in with cheating just like any other raider.

I'm angry that Osiris is going to be lumped in with cheating, despite no evidence (yet) that Predator was ever used in its raids, but because it is a raider region and because its Scribe of War was using Predator for The Black Hawks. This honestly makes me more angry than being personally lumped in with cheating, because so many people have spent so much time on Osiris, trying to build up its political and diplomatic reputation while keeping it essentially a raider region. Now for Osiris to have any kind of decent political or diplomatic reputation in the foreseeable future, it will have to cease to be raider. Now Osirans will have to choose between a decent reputation or continuing to be a raider region, knowing that they definitely can't have both anymore, and it's thanks to Predator users. So thanks for that.

I would like Predator users to answer a couple of simple questions: Even if you believed Predator was legal, why did you think it was a good idea to continue using a script developed by a delete-on-sight player deleted for use of a different illegal script? What made you think that was a wise decision? Why should anyone ever trust you to lead anything in raiding ever again, after demonstrating such piss poor judgment?

For my part, despite never using Predator, I would like to apologize to Osiris, to my fellow raiders, to defenders, to natives, to moderators, to site administrators and to anyone else who was wronged by the use of Predator. Because despite never using Predator, and despite not really knowing how it worked, I did know that it existed and I did know who created it and I did know it was still in use. I should have been asking more questions about it, and insisting that it not be further used until we had definite answers to those questions. So even though I'm not as guilty as some, I'm still guilty, and that's the really shitty thing about this and the awful position that Halcones and those who were willing to keep collaborating with him have put us in: Every raider is guilty to some degree even if it's just negligence for not asking enough questions and raising red flags, every raider has benefited from the use of Predator in some way, and we're all going to be labeled cheaters for a long time because the minority of raiders who actually wanted to cheat weren't scrutinized well enough by the vast majority of us who don't want to cheat, and never did want to cheat.

I could not be more disgusted with this situation. Whatever site administrators and moderators do about this, however hard the smackdown is, it will be less than we deserve. This has ruined the game for a great many people. We have to own that and not make excuses.

[Queen Yuno]

Well, to be fair, everyone else who used it was told it was legal by a prior non-DOS role-model who had read the script. And fell for it 100% believing it was legal. Super betrayal, much emotional pain, now rub salt on our wounds will ya!

[Cormactopia II]

Well, to be fair, everyone else who used it was told it was legal by a prior non-DOS role-model who had read the script. And fell for it 100% believing it was legal. Super betrayal, much emotional pain, now rub salt on our wounds will ya!

This kind of dismissive and defiant attitude like you've done nothing wrong from members of DEN also is not helpful. You have done something wrong and it's time to start acting like it.

[The Silver Sentinel]

Well, to be fair, everyone else who used it was told it was legal by a prior non-DOS role-model who had read the script. And fell for it 100% believing it was legal. Super betrayal, much emotional pain, now rub salt on our wounds will ya!

This really should have been self explanatory shouldn't it? Creator of tool is now DOS. Stop using said tool as it is likely they are going to go out of their way to fuck you over as they now have nothing to lose.

I'm angry that I'm going to be lumped in with cheating, despite never using Predator. I'm angry that some of Predator's most avid users don't even consider me a real raider because of how many times I've changed alignments, but because I'm a raider now, I'll be lumped in with cheating just like any other raider.

Out of anyone, you seem to be in the shittiest situation out of all of this, and that is beyond even being remotely fair to you. I have great confidence you can recover from this, but you shouldn't have to be in the situation where you need to recover.

[King Nephmir II]

Something else I only just thought of: also nice to know that manual-trigger-TEK was up against an illegal sheet. Really makes the Raider ridicule about battlefield failures I faced back in 2013-2014 pretty pathetic, to be honest, looking back on it all.

[Severisen]

As a point of order, Predator was not a thing until late 2014. When I left raiding in July 2014, they were still using Excel sheets.

[Loftegen]

This is at once hysterically funny, incredibly hypocritical, and amazingly ironic, coming from a raider.

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

Are your feelings hurt? Maybe you should have been more careful, protecting what you care so much about. Sound familiar?

[Zaolat]

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

Are your feelings hurt? Maybe you should have been more careful, protecting what you care so much about. Sound familiar?

This is not the place for bad Faith posting.

[Drop Your Pants]

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

Loft's opinions are Loft's opinions not the opinion of Lazarus as a whole, don't make it regional.

And speaking of where players stand, you were TBR Syl. Did you have access to Predator?

[Aurum Rider]

In a time of despair for both sides of R/D, you choose making a tired partisan potshot over showing class.
Good to know where you stand, Delegate of Lazarus.

Loft's opinions are Loft's opinions not the opinion of Lazarus as a whole, don't make it regional.

And speaking of where players stand, you were TBR Syl. Did you have access to Predator?

Anyone ranked Lieutenant and above in TBR had access to Predator.

[Loftegen]

This is not the place for bad Faith posting.

Oh noes, I've upset a native! Woe is me!

[Lord Ravenclaw]

This is not the place for bad Faith posting.

Oh noes, I've upset a native! Woe is me!

Loftegen, would you mind refraining from expressing your feelings in this thread? There is a time and a place for us to share our thoughts and feelings as Delegates of Feeders and Sinkers, but that is not here. This thread belongs to others.

My apologies to General COE, for this.

[Literallystalin]

Have you considered that what Loftegen is doing is, as far as we know, not against the rules? Part of his fun comes from doing things others don't approve of, so you shouldn't be able to just opt your thread out. Please take a moment to think about how he feels.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Have you considered that what Loftegen is doing is, as far as we know, not against the rules? Part of his fun comes from doing things others don't approve of, so you shouldn't be able to just opt your thread out. Please take a moment to think about how he feels.

There are rules against baiting, and I think this is a case where it's best to ignore the comments and let moderation decide that one.

As for the topic at hand - my feelings have been made evident in many a place elsewhere (Including my no one wins bit), as well as the TBH statement. The short version is, I'm sorry for not speaking up sooner.

[Katganistan]

Loftegen, knock it off.

[Reploid Productions]

Okay, timeout!

Given the scope of the Predator scandal and the realization that one or more raiding groups have been cheating their way to victory in some capacity for roughly two years, it's understandable that emotions are going to be running high on all sides, whether raider, defender, or native.

This is neither the time nor the place for purely points-scoring nastiness and scrambling to scapegoat one another. If you suspect someone's been using an illegal script, scoring cheap points in the Gameplay forum is NOT what you should be doing with this information. We have had numerous reports filed via the Getting Help page, from people coming clean to us about having used the script, sharing information they have about the script, data generated by the script, suspicions about people who are using the script or have helped develop it, and so on.

The cheap digs stop, end of. This situation goes beyond "Ha ha, $group is in deep crap now!" or "I knew X was cheating!" or "Well, why didn't Y figure it out sooner?" and so on.

Feel free to express your frustration, your disappointment, your sense of betrayal, and even your anger; but remember that the site rules still apply, and this is a time for people to start discussing solutions. Cheap shots and tit-for-tat bickering do not move the discussion toward solutions. If these threads continue to degenerate, they will be locked.

Leave the matter of who is getting modbombed and how badly to the mods/admins.


~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Admin
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[The Mighty Warrior Horse]

This is not the place for bad Faith posting.

Oh noes, I've upset a native! Woe is me!

Not the time to do this Loft, its never really the time though
I'm happy this is being apologized for, and look forward to more R/D fun in the future