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[PASSED] Repeal Condemn Unknown

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Topid
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[PASSED] Repeal Condemn Unknown

Postby Topid » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:59 pm

This is something I agreed to do long ago. It is really needed, IMO. Unknown apologized for the incident that occurred over a year ago. Unknown is under new leadership, opinions have changed, and they've dealt with the consequences of their actions for long enough IMO, including the fact the nation that they originally did not punish, Roug, turned on them and used the founder nation to do a lot of damage (all in the telegram conversation below quoted).

Kshrlmnt: "I'll admit it's been a while since viewtopic.php?f=12&t=131269&sid=293af0a694904e0cafd5b3e236109937 but it came to mind again recently. The condemnation was a spur for the apology, it's true, and the apology stands no matter what. But honestly... the sentiment of Unknown as a whole has changed from liking being condemned merely for the sake of being condemned, to being extremely uncomfortable with the reasons for it. We're trying to move on from that association; just tonight I had to address the tricky issue of a senator in a friendly region casually saying Unknown would be glad of another region authorizing that sort of force. It's far from the truth and several of us were quite upset.

To meander to the point, if you have the time or interest in pushing for our condemnation to be repealed, we'd be open to it and very grateful.

Elindra Kshrlmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord of Unknown"

Topid: "The issue with me, is that I think it needs to be acknowledged that steps should have been taken against Roug. I do know he was acting out of his own motivation and wasn't ordered to do what he did, but I think a better statement should have something along the lines of 'We didn't want him to, but he did, we're upset and won't be allowing him to work with our intelligence for X amount of time.' If Unknown is willing to admit that a stricter course of action should have been taken against their agent I think I'd be willing to write a repeal. It has been quite a while since then, I'm assuming the region's leadership has gained and lost a lot of people since then. Holding the whole region responsible for actions many were not there for is not really fair, or even holding the same players to their mistakes from a year ago is pretty extreme if they've apologized. (I wouldn't want to be held responsible for my mistakes from a year or more ago.)

- Topid"

Kshrlmnt: "Circumstances and reasons for what happened back then are confused, to say the least, and it doesn't help my knowledge of the incident that I was at that point only involved in the NS side of the game (I wasn't even aware of the incident until November). And it's not to our credit that our wakeup call for it was Rougiers nearly destroying our region--he got control of our founder and ejected nearly every nation from the region, but thankfully was unable to touch the forums. He should've been punished or even banned before that, but... well, he is now.

But in the end, Unknown as a whole does very much agree his actions were treated too mildly; we should have done more. If the incident had happened with our current government and opinions, he'd be sitting in TRR pretty quickly, with or without trial.

Complexo Cruor!
Elindra Kshlrmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord"
Here is a screenshot of those saved in my inbox, please ignore the fact I've been failing to do this for over a month.
And for the record I asked her if i could make all that public.


The Security Council,

Remembering the unfortunate destruction of the regional forums of Crusaders of Justice and Council of Narnia by an intelligence agent of the regional government of Unknown,

Concerned by Unknown's reaction to these events, blaming the victim region in official statements, as well as welcoming the condemnation and image forum destroyers,

Knowing these events to have been long in the past, when the region was under different leadership,

Recalling the apology Unknown's leaders issued to the two victims, and admittance of mistakes in the handling of the events that led to the condemnation,

Realizing that Unknown has not only paid for the mistake of failing to punish the unstable agent in question by the negative label of forum destroyers, but also because the agent later took control of the founder nation of Unknown and ejected many nations from the region,

Satisfied by the statements and changes in Unknown since the original condemnation and,

Believing the region has suffered from stigma of being a 'forum destroying' region for long enough, and has faced the consequences for their mistakes,

Hereby repeals SC #27 Condemn Unknown.


Grammar and other fixes appreciated. I hope to get this submitted as soon as possible. I'd also like to make it known that I'll be retiring from NS following the end of this vote. Things have changed for me in life, and I don't really have time for games anymore, I grew out of it. So I'm trying this one last thing I committed to do before I go. Thanks for the fun times everyone, specifically Uni, Sedge, and AMOM. :)
Last edited by Sedgistan on Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Mahaj
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Founded: Dec 08, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Mahaj » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:05 pm

Nooo don't retire!

FOR, i guess?
Aal Izz Well: UDL
<Koth> I'm still going by the assumption that Mahaj is Unibot's kid brother or something
Kandarin(Naivetry): You're going to have a great NS career ahead of you if you want it, Mahaj. :)
<@Eluvatar> Why is SkyDip such a purist raiderist
<+frattastan> Because his region was never raided.
<+maxbarry> EarthAway: I guess I might dabble in raiding just to experience it better, but I would not like to raid regions of natives, so I'd probably be more interested in defense and liberations

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Belschaft
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Founded: Mar 19, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Belschaft » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:26 pm

:(

Fifty quid says he'll be one of the 'retirees' who show up again a month later.
You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of.
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Unibot II
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Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot II » Mon Oct 17, 2011 7:58 pm

*hugs Topid*

I'll miss you a lot Topid. If you do come back, stop by the United Defenders League, alright? :p

Sure, you're weren't the greatest author in NS, you weren't even the greatest author in the group. :P But you had spirit, kid. ;) *huggles Topid till he suffocates him pratically*

My favourite thing about Topid is he spent most of his career as an author trying to undo what he did at the beginning of his career :lol2: , this is the last clean-up session before we've gone full circle, eh? Any other author just keeps writing stuff and lets future generations clean up their junk for them later.. but not Topid!
Last edited by Unibot II on Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:59 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Black Marne
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Ex-Nation

Postby Black Marne » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:14 pm

I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.

But that aside, I will vote for this resolution.

-The New Argonian Homeland of Black Marne
Defense, Liberation, Bacon: UDL

FUS RO DAH!
World Assembly Delegate of New Dinosaurtopia

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Unibot II
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Founded: Jan 10, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot II » Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:43 pm

Black Marne wrote:I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.


(He was never UDL) :P
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
Member of Gholgoth | The Capitalis de Societate of The United Defenders League (UDL) | Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL?
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:12 am

*hugs topid*

We'll miss you.

You've got my vote buddy. But if you're saying you're quitting just so this passes.... Well then I'll strangle you :p

Actually... Nah.. I'd prefer it if you stay....

DONT GO!!! :(
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran
[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Warzone Codger
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Ex-Nation

Postby Warzone Codger » Tue Oct 18, 2011 6:55 am

*Clings on to Topid*

Topid was someone who would listen to my hare-brained schemes. :blush:

As for the resolution, sure FOR.

P.S: Bhutan!
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Belschaft
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Founded: Mar 19, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Belschaft » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:36 am

Topid was someone who reisgned a feeder delegacy, knowing that I was likely to run if he did so (and had a pretty good chance of winning). I'm still pretty sure he must have been drunk when he did that; the alternative is that he trusted me, and that is unimaginable.
Last edited by Belschaft on Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of.
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Unibot II
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Founded: Jan 10, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot II » Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:49 am

Belschaft wrote:unimgainable.


You being drunk now commenting on his retirement is however utterly imgainable. :P

Topid wrote:The Security Council,

Remembering the unfortunate destruction of the regional forums of Crusaders of Justice and Council of Narnia by an intelligence agent of the regional government of Unknown,

Concerned by Unknown's reaction to these events; blaming the victim region in official statements, as well as welcoming the condemnation and image forum destroyers,

Knowing these events to have been long in the past, when the region was under different leadership,

Recalling the apology Unknown's leaders issued to the two victims, and admittance of mistakes in the handling of the events that led to the condemnation,

Realizing that Unknown has not only paid for the mistake of failing to punish the unstable agent in question by the negative label of forum destroyers, but also because the agent later took control of the founder nation of Unknown and ejected many nations from the region,

Satisfied by the statements and changes in Unknown since the original condemnation and,

Believing the region has suffered from stigma of being a 'forum destroying' region for long enough, and has faced the consequences for their mistakes,

[You need a new penultimate, the point to repeal doesn't seem to be that 'enough time has passed'.. it's that the original tenet that the agent was acting under Unknown and he was being protected by Unknown is not only not true any-more, he's gone as far as to go rogue against Unknown and Unknown has finally taken responsibility and has promoted the COPS treaty]

Hereby repeals SC #27 Condemn Unknown.


Some notes, (1) I believe Unknown has signed the COPS treaty and has been promoting COPS ever since their apology, this is perhaps sentiments worthy of managing, (2) Another question for Unknown, have they taken measures to improve soldier accountability? It's often a difficult thing, but you'll note there are several raiders across NationStates that have very little accountability to their higher command and could do rather horrific things if they were provided the means.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
General Halcones wrote:Look up to Unibot as an example.
Member of Gholgoth | The Capitalis de Societate of The United Defenders League (UDL) | Org. Join Date: 25/05/2008
Unibotian Factbook // An Analysis of NationStates Generations // The Gameplay Alignment Test // NS Weather // How do I join the UDL?
World Assembly Card Gallery // The Unibotian Life Expectancy Index // Proudly Authored 9 GA Res., 14 SC Res. // Commended by SC#78;
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Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Belschaft
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Founded: Mar 19, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Belschaft » Tue Oct 18, 2011 12:08 pm

Unibot II wrote:
Belschaft wrote:unimgainable.


You being drunk now commenting on his retirement is however utterly imgainable. :P


Bah! One typo in the whole thing and you call me out on it :P
You will never be happy if you continue to search for what happiness consists of.
You will never live if you are looking for the meaning of life.

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Drop Your Pants
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Tue Oct 18, 2011 3:18 pm

Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one :P
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:10 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one :P


They're still around? :blink:
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran
[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Spartzerium
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Postby Spartzerium » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:16 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Drop Your Pants wrote:Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one :P


They're still around? :blink:

*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...
NS Married to Tramiar <3
Father of Rawr, Mall, Jakker, Severisen, and Talisi
I once was a defender...
Former Chief Lieutenant - UDL
Former AC, VC (2 terms), CoDF (2 terms), RRO, General of the Alliance, and more - FRA
Former King, VC, and IA Minister - CoN
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I once was a Forum 7'er...
Founder of The United Church of Reppy
Also started various other random forum games


And I once... had other random info I didn't know where to put...
Originally joined NationStates May 25, 2008.
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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:18 pm

Spartzerium wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:
They're still around? :blink:

*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...


When was their last defense?
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran
[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Spartzerium
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Founded: May 24, 2009
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Postby Spartzerium » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:49 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Spartzerium wrote:*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...


When was their last defense?

...I don't even remember. A year ago?
NS Married to Tramiar <3
Father of Rawr, Mall, Jakker, Severisen, and Talisi
I once was a defender...
Former Chief Lieutenant - UDL
Former AC, VC (2 terms), CoDF (2 terms), RRO, General of the Alliance, and more - FRA
Former King, VC, and IA Minister - CoN
Former Vice Commander, Chief of Defense - CoJ


I once was a Forum 7'er...
Founder of The United Church of Reppy
Also started various other random forum games


And I once... had other random info I didn't know where to put...
Originally joined NationStates May 25, 2008.
Formerly known as Spartzerina/New Spartzerina.
Retired Major / Field Marshal - The Black Hawks
TBH Forum - TBH News Thread

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Tim-Opolis
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Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:50 pm

Spartzerium wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:
When was their last defense?

...I don't even remember. A year ago?


In my definition... CoJ doesn't exist anymore.
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran
[11:16:10] <@Koth> tim is a loose cannon cop on the edge who doesn't play by the rules

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Klaus Devestatorie
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Founded: Aug 28, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Klaus Devestatorie » Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:19 pm

Unknown had signed the COPs treaty and had enforced it before on individuals such as Saudi Burma. The issue was that Unknown decided not to enforce it against Rougiers. Obviously the simple change to ensure that soldiers can be held accountable is to actually enforce it.
The Avengrynkhal Ascendant of Klaus Devestatorie

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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Wed Oct 19, 2011 10:51 am

Unibot II wrote:[You need a new penultimate, the point to repeal doesn't seem to be that 'enough time has passed'.. it's that the original tenet that the agent was acting under Unknown and he was being protected by Unknown is not only not true any-more, he's gone as far as to go rogue against Unknown and Unknown has finally taken responsibility and has promoted the COPS treaty]
Actually, I never mentioned Unknown's failure to punish or protection of Roug in the original to my recollection. It was solely based on the logic that the mother-region is responsible for the actions of its agent. Even if it did not order or approve of those actions. (Though my unwritten logic behind that was ...unless they punish the agent for those actions.)

Thanks for your comments everyone! :)

@Codger: Would you like that region?
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Black Marne
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Founded: Jun 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Black Marne » Wed Oct 19, 2011 4:57 pm

Unibot II wrote:
Black Marne wrote:I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.


(He was never UDL) :P


OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....
Defense, Liberation, Bacon: UDL

FUS RO DAH!
World Assembly Delegate of New Dinosaurtopia

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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:26 pm

Black Marne wrote:
Unibot II wrote:
(He was never UDL) :P


OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....

I may have helped once, I don't recall doing so but I may have. But no, never been a member.

Any thing else need to be altered?
Last edited by Topid on Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Black Marne
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Founded: Jun 11, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Black Marne » Wed Oct 19, 2011 8:39 pm

Topid wrote:
Black Marne wrote:
OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....

I may have helped once, I don't recall doing so but I may have. But no, never been a member.

Any thing else need to be altered?


Not that I can think of, but it's odd how little debate is occurring here....you may want other ambassadors to see.

OOC: That's what I meant. I am no member either, but I do associate myself with the UDL a little.

-The New Argonian Homeland of Black Marne
Defense, Liberation, Bacon: UDL

FUS RO DAH!
World Assembly Delegate of New Dinosaurtopia

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Fratt Armed Forces
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Founded: Nov 18, 2010
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fratt Armed Forces » Fri Oct 21, 2011 6:00 am

I support the repeal.
RRA High Commander

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Topid
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Founded: Dec 29, 2008
Capitalizt

Postby Topid » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:49 pm

Then submitted. And the game is focused on gameplay controversy, I'm not surprised there has been little attention paid to this.
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Drop Your Pants
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Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Oct 22, 2011 4:30 pm

It's gaining approvals fairly well though :)
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