[PASSED] Repeal Condemn Unknown

[Sedgistan]

This is something I agreed to do long ago. It is really needed, IMO. Unknown apologized for the incident that occurred over a year ago. Unknown is under new leadership, opinions have changed, and they've dealt with the consequences of their actions for long enough IMO, including the fact the nation that they originally did not punish, Roug, turned on them and used the founder nation to do a lot of damage (all in the telegram conversation below quoted).

Kshrlmnt: "I'll admit it's been a while since viewtopic.php?f=12&t=131269&sid=293af0a694904e0cafd5b3e236109937 but it came to mind again recently. The condemnation was a spur for the apology, it's true, and the apology stands no matter what. But honestly... the sentiment of Unknown as a whole has changed from liking being condemned merely for the sake of being condemned, to being extremely uncomfortable with the reasons for it. We're trying to move on from that association; just tonight I had to address the tricky issue of a senator in a friendly region casually saying Unknown would be glad of another region authorizing that sort of force. It's far from the truth and several of us were quite upset.

To meander to the point, if you have the time or interest in pushing for our condemnation to be repealed, we'd be open to it and very grateful.

Elindra Kshrlmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord of Unknown"

Topid: "The issue with me, is that I think it needs to be acknowledged that steps should have been taken against Roug. I do know he was acting out of his own motivation and wasn't ordered to do what he did, but I think a better statement should have something along the lines of 'We didn't want him to, but he did, we're upset and won't be allowing him to work with our intelligence for X amount of time.' If Unknown is willing to admit that a stricter course of action should have been taken against their agent I think I'd be willing to write a repeal. It has been quite a while since then, I'm assuming the region's leadership has gained and lost a lot of people since then. Holding the whole region responsible for actions many were not there for is not really fair, or even holding the same players to their mistakes from a year ago is pretty extreme if they've apologized. (I wouldn't want to be held responsible for my mistakes from a year or more ago.)

- Topid"

Kshrlmnt: "Circumstances and reasons for what happened back then are confused, to say the least, and it doesn't help my knowledge of the incident that I was at that point only involved in the NS side of the game (I wasn't even aware of the incident until November). And it's not to our credit that our wakeup call for it was Rougiers nearly destroying our region--he got control of our founder and ejected nearly every nation from the region, but thankfully was unable to touch the forums. He should've been punished or even banned before that, but... well, he is now.

But in the end, Unknown as a whole does very much agree his actions were treated too mildly; we should have done more. If the incident had happened with our current government and opinions, he'd be sitting in TRR pretty quickly, with or without trial.

Complexo Cruor!
Elindra Kshlrmnt Dion Diablessa
Regent and Warlord"

Here is a screenshot of those saved in my inbox, please ignore the fact I've been failing to do this for over a month.
And for the record I asked her if i could make all that public.

The Security Council,

Remembering the unfortunate destruction of the regional forums of Crusaders of Justice and Council of Narnia by an intelligence agent of the regional government of Unknown,

Concerned by Unknown's reaction to these events, blaming the victim region in official statements, as well as welcoming the condemnation and image forum destroyers,

Knowing these events to have been long in the past, when the region was under different leadership,

Recalling the apology Unknown's leaders issued to the two victims, and admittance of mistakes in the handling of the events that led to the condemnation,

Realizing that Unknown has not only paid for the mistake of failing to punish the unstable agent in question by the negative label of forum destroyers, but also because the agent later took control of the founder nation of Unknown and ejected many nations from the region,

Satisfied by the statements and changes in Unknown since the original condemnation and,

Believing the region has suffered from stigma of being a 'forum destroying' region for long enough, and has faced the consequences for their mistakes,

Hereby repeals SC #27 Condemn Unknown.

Grammar and other fixes appreciated. I hope to get this submitted as soon as possible. I'd also like to make it known that I'll be retiring from NS following the end of this vote. Things have changed for me in life, and I don't really have time for games anymore, I grew out of it. So I'm trying this one last thing I committed to do before I go. Thanks for the fun times everyone, specifically Uni, Sedge, and AMOM.

[Mahaj]

Nooo don't retire!

FOR, i guess?

[Belschaft]

Fifty quid says he'll be one of the 'retirees' who show up again a month later.

[Unibot II]

*hugs Topid*

I'll miss you a lot Topid. If you do come back, stop by the United Defenders League, alright?

Sure, you're weren't the greatest author in NS, you weren't even the greatest author in the group. But you had spirit, kid. *huggles Topid till he suffocates him pratically*

My favourite thing about Topid is he spent most of his career as an author trying to undo what he did at the beginning of his career , this is the last clean-up session before we've gone full circle, eh? Any other author just keeps writing stuff and lets future generations clean up their junk for them later.. but not Topid!

[Black Marne]

I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.

But that aside, I will vote for this resolution.

-The New Argonian Homeland of Black Marne

[Unibot II]

I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.

(He was never UDL)

[Tim-Opolis]

*hugs topid*

We'll miss you.

You've got my vote buddy. But if you're saying you're quitting just so this passes.... Well then I'll strangle you

Actually... Nah.. I'd prefer it if you stay....

DONT GO!!!

[Warzone Codger]

*Clings on to Topid*

Topid was someone who would listen to my hare-brained schemes.

As for the resolution, sure FOR.

P.S: Bhutan!

[Belschaft]

Topid was someone who reisgned a feeder delegacy, knowing that I was likely to run if he did so (and had a pretty good chance of winning). I'm still pretty sure he must have been drunk when he did that; the alternative is that he trusted me, and that is unimaginable.

[Unibot II]

unimgainable.

You being drunk now commenting on his retirement is however utterly imgainable.

The Security Council,

Remembering the unfortunate destruction of the regional forums of Crusaders of Justice and Council of Narnia by an intelligence agent of the regional government of Unknown,

Concerned by Unknown's reaction to these events; blaming the victim region in official statements, as well as welcoming the condemnation and image forum destroyers,

Knowing these events to have been long in the past, when the region was under different leadership,

Recalling the apology Unknown's leaders issued to the two victims, and admittance of mistakes in the handling of the events that led to the condemnation,

Realizing that Unknown has not only paid for the mistake of failing to punish the unstable agent in question by the negative label of forum destroyers, but also because the agent later took control of the founder nation of Unknown and ejected many nations from the region,

Satisfied by the statements and changes in Unknown since the original condemnation and,

Believing the region has suffered from stigma of being a 'forum destroying' region for long enough, and has faced the consequences for their mistakes,

[You need a new penultimate, the point to repeal doesn't seem to be that 'enough time has passed'.. it's that the original tenet that the agent was acting under Unknown and he was being protected by Unknown is not only not true any-more, he's gone as far as to go rogue against Unknown and Unknown has finally taken responsibility and has promoted the COPS treaty]

Hereby repeals SC #27 Condemn Unknown.

Some notes, (1) I believe Unknown has signed the COPS treaty and has been promoting COPS ever since their apology, this is perhaps sentiments worthy of managing, (2) Another question for Unknown, have they taken measures to improve soldier accountability? It's often a difficult thing, but you'll note there are several raiders across NationStates that have very little accountability to their higher command and could do rather horrific things if they were provided the means.

[Belschaft]

unimgainable.

You being drunk now commenting on his retirement is however utterly imgainable.

Bah! One typo in the whole thing and you call me out on it

[Drop Your Pants]

Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one

[Tim-Opolis]

Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one

They're still around?

[Spartzerium]

Wonder how CoJ feel about this, someone go poke one

They're still around?

*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...

[Tim-Opolis]

They're still around?

*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...

When was their last defense?

[Spartzerium]

*waves*

Though CoJ is really inactive lately...

When was their last defense?

...I don't even remember. A year ago?

[Tim-Opolis]

When was their last defense?

...I don't even remember. A year ago?

In my definition... CoJ doesn't exist anymore.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Unknown had signed the COPs treaty and had enforced it before on individuals such as Saudi Burma. The issue was that Unknown decided not to enforce it against Rougiers. Obviously the simple change to ensure that soldiers can be held accountable is to actually enforce it.

[Topid]

[You need a new penultimate, the point to repeal doesn't seem to be that 'enough time has passed'.. it's that the original tenet that the agent was acting under Unknown and he was being protected by Unknown is not only not true any-more, he's gone as far as to go rogue against Unknown and Unknown has finally taken responsibility and has promoted the COPS treaty]

Actually, I never mentioned Unknown's failure to punish or protection of Roug in the original to my recollection. It was solely based on the logic that the mother-region is responsible for the actions of its agent. Even if it did not order or approve of those actions. (Though my unwritten logic behind that was ...unless they punish the agent for those actions.)

Thanks for your comments everyone!

@Codger: Would you like that region?

[Black Marne]

I am saddened by the fact that you feel you must retire, esteemed ambassador. I had a good time aiding the UDL and yourself along with it.

(He was never UDL)

OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....

[Topid]

(He was never UDL)

OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....

I may have helped once, I don't recall doing so but I may have. But no, never been a member.

Any thing else need to be altered?

[Black Marne]

OOC: Are you sure? I swear I saw him the time you guys asked me for help....

I may have helped once, I don't recall doing so but I may have. But no, never been a member.

Any thing else need to be altered?

Not that I can think of, but it's odd how little debate is occurring here....you may want other ambassadors to see.

OOC: That's what I meant. I am no member either, but I do associate myself with the UDL a little.

-The New Argonian Homeland of Black Marne

[Fratt Armed Forces]

I support the repeal.

[Topid]

Then submitted. And the game is focused on gameplay controversy, I'm not surprised there has been little attention paid to this.

[Drop Your Pants]

It's gaining approvals fairly well though