America: Hidden Poverty

[Libertarian Mesa]

When one thinks of America, you probably think the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building, Hollywood, pristine suburban streets, or things which bring wealth and happiness. Many people do not realize that some parts of the country extremely poor and underdeveloped. Here are some examples:

East St. Louis, Illinois
Percent of population in poverty: 35.1
Population: 27,000
Number of killings in 2007: 30

Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Unemployment rate: Approx. 80%
Life expectancy: About 50 years, the lowest in the Western Hemisphere apart from Haiti.

There are others, like Fort Thompson, South Dakota, where 64.6% of people live in poverty and many homes don't have even plumbing or kitchens. My question is, what on Earth can be done to these poor areas. I'm a libertarian and therefore oppose government aid for the poor, but what else can these people depend on? The only thing I can think of is the tax incentives for businesses to create jobs there. But could it really solve all their problems?

What do you all think? Especially capitalist libertarians, as this is quite a dilemma.

[UCUMAY]

Allow a method of government welfare that employs the poor to pick up trash, make license plates, pave roads, create day care for in need students. Things like that. If the fail at those jobs fire them. You rise or fall of your own merit.

[Tuthina]

Ensure everyone can live under a roof, have something to eat, and have jobs to do. It might not fix all problems, but it is probably a good start.

While I would suggest the government subsidising all those stuff, it should be obvious that you and other libertarians would be against it. I think that tax incentives for companies to do the above stuff should be good enough in your viewpoint. However, given the nature of companies, I doubt it would help those who need the services most.

USA, technically being a secular state, probably should not meddle in religious affairs, but sometimes I would think that churches might be the one who can help them, beside government aids. I wonder would it be unconstitutional for the state to call for charity aids from churches and similar organisation?

[Ceannairceach]

We aren't a third world nation, as we were on a side during the Cold War.

OH, that type of third world nation. No, we still aren't. We need a lot of improvement, but we aren't like Somalia or such. Really good second world, at worst. I doubt we can compare to durkadurkaislamoafricastanswana.

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Being from a third-world country, I can confirm USA is not one.

[North Calaveras]

Ensure everyone can live under a roof, have something to eat, and have jobs to do. It might not fix all problems, but it is probably a good start.

While I would suggest the government subsidising all those stuff, it should be obvious that you and other libertarians would be against it. I think that tax incentives for companies to do the above stuff should be good enough in your viewpoint. However, given the nature of companies, I doubt it would help those who need the services most.

USA, technically being a secular state, probably should not meddle in religious affairs, but sometimes I would think that churches might be the one who can help them, beside government aids. I wonder would it be unconstitutional for the state to call for charity aids from churches and similar organisation?

How can you ensure everyone housing, food and jobs?

[UCUMAY]

Ensure everyone can live under a roof, have something to eat, and have jobs to do. It might not fix all problems, but it is probably a good start.

While I would suggest the government subsidising all those stuff, it should be obvious that you and other libertarians would be against it. I think that tax incentives for companies to do the above stuff should be good enough in your viewpoint. However, given the nature of companies, I doubt it would help those who need the services most.

USA, technically being a secular state, probably should not meddle in religious affairs, but sometimes I would think that churches might be the one who can help them, beside government aids. I wonder would it be unconstitutional for the state to call for charity aids from churches and similar organisation?

How can you ensure everyone housing, food and jobs?

You cannot unless you raise taxes, cut defense, and use eminent domain on land.

[Angleter]

The poorest counties are only as bad as Serbia, so far from third world, though not great nonetheless. A lot of these places, particularly the poorest ones in South Dakota, seem to be Native American lands, so wouldn't it be the tribes' responsibilities, given their autonomy?

[Shadow25]

oh i wish that my third world country was like USA

[Vecherd]

Seeing how all those three places have a higher than 95% minority population, the only logical thing would be to spread them around in the white North, they wont be richer, but hey, it looks better on paper.

Other than that I am a supporter of the Free Market and letting them start their own businesses without problems and cut the the discriminating minimum wage laws so more people can get more jobs. I am sure this would absolutely increase standard of living.

[Angleter]

oh i wish that my third world country was like USA

Well, you've got an oversized, worryingly politically powerful army; a lively smuggling trade on one of your borders; a history of attempts to dominate or even control one's region; a large dam amidst copious quantities of desert; a history of blockading a neighbour you don't like; a major political party that wants social conservatism and doesn't like religious minorities; widespread dissatisfaction with government and the economy; nice tourist attractions; a British colonial past...

You're getting there.

[Terra Agora]

When one thinks of America, you probably think the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building, Hollywood, pristine suburban streets, or things which bring wealth and happiness. Many people do not realize that some parts of the country like Third World nations. Here are some examples:

East St. Louis, Illinois
Percent of population in poverty: 35.1
Population: 27,000
Number of killings in 2007: 30

Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Unemployment rate: Approx. 80%
Life expectancy: About 50 years, the lowest in the Western Hemisphere apart from Haiti.

There are others, like Fort Thompson, South Dakota, where 64.6% of people live in poverty and many homes don't have even plumbing or kitchens. My question is, what on Earth can be done to these poor areas. I'm a libertarian and therefore oppose government aid for the poor, but what else can these people depend on? The only thing I can think of is the tax incentives for businesses to create jobs there. But could it really solve all their problems?

What do you all think? Especially capitalist libertarians, as this is quite a dilemma.

Most of these places are shit holes because they are over run with gangs.

[Trotskylvania]

When one thinks of America, you probably think the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building, Hollywood, pristine suburban streets, or things which bring wealth and happiness. Many people do not realize that some parts of the country like Third World nations. Here are some examples:

East St. Louis, Illinois
Percent of population in poverty: 35.1
Population: 27,000
Number of killings in 2007: 30

Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Unemployment rate: Approx. 80%
Life expectancy: About 50 years, the lowest in the Western Hemisphere apart from Haiti.

There are others, like Fort Thompson, South Dakota, where 64.6% of people live in poverty and many homes don't have even plumbing or kitchens. My question is, what on Earth can be done to these poor areas. I'm a libertarian and therefore oppose government aid for the poor, but what else can these people depend on? The only thing I can think of is the tax incentives for businesses to create jobs there. But could it really solve all their problems?

What do you all think? Especially capitalist libertarians, as this is quite a dilemma.

Most of these places are shit holes because they are over run with gangs.

They were shitholes before the gangs came. Gangs just made them worse, and sapped any chance of recovery.

[Terra Agora]

Most of these places are shit holes because they are over run with gangs.

They were shitholes before the gangs came. Gangs just made them worse, and sapped any chance of recovery.

The worst one "Pine Ridges South Dakota" is an Indian reservation. That is probably one reason why it started going bad.

[Sibirsky]

When one thinks of America, you probably think the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building, Hollywood, pristine suburban streets, or things which bring wealth and happiness. Many people do not realize that some parts of the country like Third World nations. Here are some examples:

East St. Louis, Illinois
Percent of population in poverty: 35.1
Population: 27,000
Number of killings in 2007: 30

Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Unemployment rate: Approx. 80%
Life expectancy: About 50 years, the lowest in the Western Hemisphere apart from Haiti.

There are others, like Fort Thompson, South Dakota, where 64.6% of people live in poverty and many homes don't have even plumbing or kitchens. My question is, what on Earth can be done to these poor areas. I'm a libertarian and therefore oppose government aid for the poor, but what else can these people depend on? The only thing I can think of is the tax incentives for businesses to create jobs there. But could it really solve all their problems?

What do you all think? Especially capitalist libertarians, as this is quite a dilemma.

The poverty level is not a valid metric since the US poverty level is well above the median level of the world. Throw that out.

There are some poor areas, thanks to government mismanagement. It sucks, and I feel for those people. That does not make those places even remotely close to third world level.

[Johz]

When one thinks of America, you probably think the Statue of Liberty or the Empire State Building, Hollywood, pristine suburban streets, or things which bring wealth and happiness. Many people do not realize that some parts of the country like Third World nations. Here are some examples:

East St. Louis, Illinois
Percent of population in poverty: 35.1
Population: 27,000
Number of killings in 2007: 30

Pine Ridge, South Dakota
Unemployment rate: Approx. 80%
Life expectancy: About 50 years, the lowest in the Western Hemisphere apart from Haiti.

There are others, like Fort Thompson, South Dakota, where 64.6% of people live in poverty and many homes don't have even plumbing or kitchens. My question is, what on Earth can be done to these poor areas. I'm a libertarian and therefore oppose government aid for the poor, but what else can these people depend on? The only thing I can think of is the tax incentives for businesses to create jobs there. But could it really solve all their problems?

What do you all think? Especially capitalist libertarians, as this is quite a dilemma.

Most of these places are shit holes because they are over run with gangs.

Anyone can point at gang culture and start blaming, what would you actually do about it?

[Sibirsky]

The poorest counties are only as bad as Serbia, so far from third world, though not great nonetheless. A lot of these places, particularly the poorest ones in South Dakota, seem to be Native American lands, so wouldn't it be the tribes' responsibilities, given their autonomy?

Not exactly. Tribal lands do not exist in legal reality. That is US Federal government land. And that is the problem. Property rights are a cornerstone of any prosperous society.

[Sibirsky]

Seeing how all those three places have a higher than 95% minority population, the only logical thing would be to spread them around in the white North, they wont be richer, but hey, it looks better on paper.

Other than that I am a supporter of the Free Market and letting them start their own businesses without problems and cut the the discriminating minimum wage laws so more people can get more jobs. I am sure this would absolutely increase standard of living.

Can't start a business without money. Can't get money without collateral. Don't have collateral since you live on government land.

That private property shit again. Damn capitalists.

[Chrobalta]

Three decades of underinvestment. Nothing surprising.

[Ifreann]

I would expect that actual 3rd world countries are rather worse off.

[Mussoliniopoli]

The poorest counties are only as bad as Serbia, so far from third world, though not great nonetheless. A lot of these places, particularly the poorest ones in South Dakota, seem to be Native American lands, so wouldn't it be the tribes' responsibilities, given their autonomy?

Not exactly. Tribal lands do not exist in legal reality. That is US Federal government land. And that is the problem. Property rights are a cornerstone of any prosperous society.

Right all the Tribals problems would be solved by property rights.

[Malgrave]

I thought this thread was going to be about the ageing and crippled transport infrastructure of the United States compared to countries in Europe like Germany and the United Kingdom. I was mistaken.

These area's in poverty are the result of inefficient Government however you should compare those conditions to the ones present in some area's in Africa.

[Sibirsky]

Not exactly. Tribal lands do not exist in legal reality. That is US Federal government land. And that is the problem. Property rights are a cornerstone of any prosperous society.

Right all the Tribals problems would be solved by property rights.

Did I say that?

It would help them, economically.

[Terra Agora]

The poorest counties are only as bad as Serbia, so far from third world, though not great nonetheless. A lot of these places, particularly the poorest ones in South Dakota, seem to be Native American lands, so wouldn't it be the tribes' responsibilities, given their autonomy?

Not exactly. Tribal lands do not exist in legal reality. That is US Federal government land. And that is the problem. Property rights are a cornerstone of any prosperous society.

You ninja'd me. Though I saw it so I didn't post it.
Completely true Sib.

Didn't Stossel have a show on this awhile back?

[Trotskylvania]

The poorest counties are only as bad as Serbia, so far from third world, though not great nonetheless. A lot of these places, particularly the poorest ones in South Dakota, seem to be Native American lands, so wouldn't it be the tribes' responsibilities, given their autonomy?

Not exactly. Tribal lands do not exist in legal reality. That is US Federal government land. And that is the problem. Property rights are a cornerstone of any prosperous society.

The land is worthless. Property rights or not wouldn't make a difference. Even with cutting edge farming techniques, you couldn't grow more than a crop of dirt on Pine Ridge. It's not even good grazing land.