North Korea second happiest country in the world, China's #1

[Sporae]

*Sigh*

What could have happened is irrelevant. North Vietnam succeeded in its objectives, while the US failed. Thus, North Vietnam won.

Part of waging war is keeping home team happy. You fail that, you fail in the war.

Yes, North Vietnam won, but they never ever managed to militarily defeat the US.

It's hard to call either side the winner, especially with 2 million deaths on the Vietnamese side. I still call it a draw.

[Phoneboothknifefights]

Not to mention that whole "intervening to prevent a Domino effect" kind of backfired on your asses.

If anything, the US should have backed Ho after independence. He was a genuine nationalist leader, and drastically different from either Mao or the Soviets.

Eh, North Vietnam did have a rather brutal fixiation with Maoism for a while.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_Vietnam

To be fair, this is often more attributed to Ho's underlings rather than the man itself. Ho Chi Minh looked up to Stalin and has been quoted as saying that the work of Mao Zedong was pretty much the final word in Marxist-Leninism. His vision for Vietnam was a modern, industrialized society, probably by way of Stalinist work projects (i.e. massive industrialisation, five years plans, this is just my guessing at what he meant).

On the other hand, he had the nationalism streak and, for the sake of mentioning, probably wasn't atheist (he told friends before he died that he thought he would finally meet Marx and Lenin on the other side).

Anyway, the VCP has done some dickish, brutal things over its lifetime (in peace time, no less) and are probably about as oppressive as the old GDR regime (though apparently less murderous). But, you know, they haven't driven their country into the ground and they certainly aren't crazy.

[Ost- Deutschland]

I hear Dear Leader's son has openly asked him why his family should live in luxury while the rest of their people live in poverty.

Wow, a decendent of Kim Jong Il who DOES have brains

[Euronion]

Of course everyone is happy here! Just like him! HEY, *yells* WHY DONT YOU SMILE??? WHY DONT YOU SMIIIILE! *points gun*

Ofcourse everyone is happy there (:

I hear Dear Leader's son has openly asked him why his family should live in luxury while the rest of their people live in poverty.

I hear that there is a propaganda press that makes everyone think that their leader cares about them

[Zonolia]

They're happy because if they frown and say it's not fun in NK then they get a slug to the brains.

[Keronians]

I hear Dear Leader's son has openly asked him why his family should live in luxury while the rest of their people live in poverty.

Wow, a decendent of Kim Jong Il who DOES have brains

In all honesty, I think that even Assad knows that what he's doing is wrong; he's just doing it in order to keep power.

You know, power corrupts and all that?

[Phoneboothknifefights]

Yes, North Vietnam won, but they never ever managed to militarily defeat the US.

It's hard to call either side the winner, especially with 2 million deaths on the Vietnamese side. I still call it a draw.

Militarily defeating the U.S. (if the North Vietnamese could even manage it, which they could not given the large gulf in economic power and military might) would have been suicide. The U.S. doesn't take humiliation lightly and probably would've dropped a nuke before accepting any complete military defeat. The way the guerrillas conducted the war was the only war it could've worked. Notice that the losses were at their worst when they made exceptions in their strategy (Tet Offensive, Easter Offensive).

And body count does not count for winning wars. If that were true, the Germans clearly beat Russia in WWII and the Brits won the Revolutionary War.

[Andaluciae]

At that point in time, the PRC was a geostrategic competitor. It's hard to see anything they did in a positive light, if you are an American policymaker at the time.

Yes, but to go from "this country deserves to be free. They are a feudal nation fighting for their liberty from the colonialism of Europe" to "OMG EBIL!!!! COMMUNISTS!!! KILL THEM WITH FIRE!!!" is kind of extreme.

Democratic governance tends to result in bipolar governance, and Americans are often taken by strange whims from time to time. I don't find it that surprising.

[Norstal]

Wow, a decendent of Kim Jong Il who DOES have brains

In all honesty, I think that even Assad knows that what he's doing is wrong; he's just doing it in order to keep power.

You know, power corrupts and all that?

Was that Il-Sung or his other son?

[EnragedMaldivians]

Yes, but to go from "this country deserves to be free. They are a feudal nation fighting for their liberty from the colonialism of Europe" to "OMG EBIL!!!! COMMUNISTS!!! KILL THEM WITH FIRE!!!" is kind of extreme.

Democratic governance tends to result in bipolar governance, and Americans are often taken by strange whims from time to time. I don't find it that surprising.

Only if you have a single member district electoral system. Winner takes, all etc.

[Sporae]

It's hard to call either side the winner, especially with 2 million deaths on the Vietnamese side. I still call it a draw.

Militarily defeating the U.S. (if the North Vietnamese could even manage it, which they could not given the large gulf in economic power and military might) would have been suicide. The U.S. doesn't take humiliation lightly and probably would've dropped a nuke before accepting any complete military defeat. The way the guerrillas conducted the war was the only war it could've worked. Notice that the losses were at their worst when they made exceptions in their strategy (Tet Offensive, Easter Offensive).

And body count does not count for winning wars. If that were true, the Germans clearly beat Russia in WWII and the Brits won the Revolutionary War.

Well, keep in mind that Germany was forced out of the USSR in WWII. In Vietnam, America packed up and left. It does not quite mean a defeat, but I can see why people think so. Furthermore, look at the aftermath of the two. Vietnam was in pieces after America left. The USSR emerged with the largest military on Earth and the second strongest economy.
And a nuke was not ever going to be dropped on Vietnam- not during the cold war. That would ruin relations with the USSR, and America was not interested in that.

You can't argue that the British won the Revolutionary War at all. The casualties weren't even close to so disproportionate, and the British empire suffered hugely from the loss of its American colonies.

Personally, I regard Vietnam as a loss on the American side, but I'm pointing out that one could argue a draw or a defeat either way.

[Central and Eastern Visayas]

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

If anything, the US should have backed Ho after independence. He was a genuine nationalist leader, and drastically different from either Mao or the Soviets.

Meh. They sort of did, until China became Communist and began helping him. That changed everything, because the Communists are ebil, you know?

Yeah, no thanks to Joe McCarthy's outright demonization of Communism. Though to be fair to the guy, Communism is a sort of reverse theocracy--instead of the Church as the State, it's vice-versa, the State is the Church, and what the state wants is what it gets no matter how many innocents have to die.

[Niene]

I'll reignite this discussion.
A spectacular North Korea tourism video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HK3Ttb43OI

[Herrebrugh]

I'll reignite this discussion.
A spectacular North Korea tourism video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HK3Ttb43OI

I love that one!

But I don't think this gravedig was needed.

[Niene]

I'll reignite this discussion.
A spectacular North Korea tourism video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HK3Ttb43OI

I love that one!

But I don't think this gravedig was needed.

Oh, well. Enjoy the video, everyone!

[Arumdaum]

In all honesty, I think that even Assad knows that what he's doing is wrong; he's just doing it in order to keep power.

You know, power corrupts and all that?

Was that Il-Sung or his other son?

Kim Il-sung is Kim Jong-il's dad, the Eternal President and founder of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

It's Jong-un that we're talking about, I think.

[Herrebrugh]

Was that Il-Sung or his other son?

Kim Il-sung is Kim Jong-il's dad, the Eternal President and founder of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

It's Jong-un that we're talking about, I think.

You're forgetting Great Leader.

Kim Il-Sung is the Great Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea, while Kim Jong-Il is the Dear Leader of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

[Fallos Miriai]

When you don't realize that it's possible to like in anything other than poverty, it's easy to be happy out of ignorance.

And when the government agency asking you if you're happy is holding a gun to your head while asking, the answers may be a bit skewed...

[Kazomal]

Yes, North Vietnam won, but they never ever managed to militarily defeat the US.

It's hard to call either side the winner, especially with 2 million deaths on the Vietnamese side. I still call it a draw.

North Vietnam succeeded in unifying Viet Nam. The US failed to prevent the North from conquering South Vietnam.

[Millerscation]

that is bull north korea"s people in general are poor almost starve every day and have slim to none of an education and computer acese and china is almost as bad one child polasy act limited tv water food and ect use and anyone who says anything bad about there gov is ushelly never seen again and many fun thing are band in both china and north korea seriosly wtf they only asked kim join lue who is happy and who is not

[Frisbeeteria]

It's hard to call either side the winner, especially with 2 million deaths on the Vietnamese side. I still call it a draw.

North Vietnam succeeded in unifying Viet Nam. The US failed to prevent the North from conquering South Vietnam.

The Vietnam war was a campaign fought during the COld war. We made a strategic withdrawal from Vietnam, but still won the COld war. That's what counts. Also, the US military didnt lose a battle during the entire war. In fact, the political win the North achieved during the Tet offensive was really a devastating military defeat that LBJ was too stupid and weak to recognize.

[Cyrisnia]

North Vietnam succeeded in unifying Viet Nam. The US failed to prevent the North from conquering South Vietnam.

The Vietnam war was a campaign fought during the COld war. We made a strategic withdrawal from Vietnam, but still won the COld war. That's what counts. Also, the US military didnt lose a battle during the entire war. In fact, the political win the North achieved during the Tet offensive was really a devastating military defeat that LBJ was too stupid and weak to recognize.

You did not just fucking gravedig a thread from fucking Summer 2011, did you?

[Benuty]

I can feel the memories from this year drawing closer the longer I stay on this reawakened thread.

[Herargon]

North korea best korea, news say. *nods*

[Lydenburg]

North Vietnam succeeded in unifying Viet Nam. The US failed to prevent the North from conquering South Vietnam.

The Vietnam war was a campaign fought during the COld war. We made a strategic withdrawal from Vietnam, but still won the COld war. That's what counts. Also, the US military didnt lose a battle during the entire war. In fact, the political win the North achieved during the Tet offensive was really a devastating military defeat that LBJ was too stupid and weak to recognize.

Please don't grave dig, new ouen.