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Bullying, damaging or helpful?

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:33 am

http://www.aaets.org/article204.htm <--- written by Mark Dombeck, Ph.D.

That article addresses the long term (lasting) of bullying.
There are two ugly outcomes that stem from learning to view yourself as a less than desirable, incapable individual. The first ugly outcome is that it becomes more likely that you will become increasingly susceptible to becoming depressed and/or angry and/or bitter. Being bullied teaches you that you are undesirable, that you are not safe in the world, and (when it is dished out by forces that are physically superior to yourself) that you are relatively powerless to defend yourself. When you are forced, again and again, to contemplate your relative lack of control over the bullying process, you are being set up for Learned Helplessness (e.g., where you come to believe that you can't do anything to change your ugly situation even if that isn't true), which in turn sets you up for hopelessness and depression.

At the same time, you may be learning that you are helpless and hopeless, you are also learning how you are seen by bullies, which is to say, you are learning that you are seen by others as weak, pathetic, and a loser. And, by virtue of the way that identity tends to work, you are being set up to believe that these things the bullies are saying about you are true.

It would be great if the average person was possessed of unshakable self-confidence, but this just isn't how identity works. Identity is a social process. Other people contribute to it. Particularly when people are young and have not yet survived a few of life's trials, it is difficult for people to know who they are and what they are made of. Much of what passes for identity in the young (and in the older too) is actually a kind of other-confidence, which is to say that many people's self-confidence is continually shored up by those around them telling them in both overt and subtle ways that they are good, worthy people. This is one of the reasons people like to belong to groups – it helps them to feel good about themselves. Bullying teaches people that they are explicitly not part of groups; that they are outcasts and outsiders. It is hard to doubt the reality of being an outcast and an outsider when you have been beaten or otherwise publicly humiliated. It takes an exceptionally confident (or otherwise well-supported) person to not internalize bullies' negative messages and begin bullying yourself by holding yourself to the same standards that bullies are applying to you and finding yourself a failure. In other words, it is rather easy for bullying victims to note that they have been beaten up and then to start thinking of themselves as weak, no-good, worthless, pathetic, and incompetent. These are the sorts of thoughts that lead to depression, or, if they are combined with revenge fantasies, to anger and rage feelings.


...the second ugly outcome unfolds more slowly over time. Having a wounded self-concept makes it harder for you to believe in yourself, and when you have difficulty believing in yourself, you will tend to have a harder time persevering through difficult situations and challenging circumstances. Deficits in academic performance can easily occur when bullying victims succumb to depression or otherwise become demoralized. They certainly also occur when victims ditch school to avoid bullies. The deficits themselves are not the real issue. The real issue is that if deficits occur for too long or become too pronounced, the affected children can lose out on opportunities for advancement and further study, and ultimately, employment. I've read retrospective studies where people report having left school early so as to avoid continued bullying, and this of course will have altered and limited the job prospects they have available to them as adults. Leaving school may be a dramatic (if occasionally realistic) example of how early bullying can affect one's life, but there are surely other ways that anger or depression caused by bullying harms and developmentally delays people's progress.


Walls of text, sorry, but they pretty much surmise what I've been positing in this thread for the last 4 pages.
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Grenartia
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Postby Grenartia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:33 am

Itanica wrote:By my definition of weak, they are weak.


I have a question. What makes your definition of weak so definitive? Shouldn't we be using a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak, as opposed to a subjective one?

Itanica wrote:Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?


Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...
Itanica wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Prior to me realizing I was bi, I used to get extremely defensive about being called gay. I had myself convinced I was the straightest man on earth. After I realized I was bi, and accepted it, I really stopped giving a fuck if people called me gay or not, if they weren't obviously trying to harrass me about it.

As for the ugly part, I'll be the first to admit I'm not very attractive.

I've never heard of the underlined argument.

Where are you from?
Where I am from, it's very commonplace to say "You are only calling him gay because you are gay yourself!".


I'm from the US. Specifically born in Tennessee, and raised in Louisiana. I've heard the sentiment behind the statement, but never used that often.

Itanica wrote:Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?


Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...
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IshCong
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Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:36 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
The more amusing thing is that defensiveness is, of course, a defense mechanism to shield from, say, mental torment.
He's self-evidently weak under his own definition, because it is quite clear we're affecting him. =T

Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.


Every post you make shows that you've been affected.
By our words.
Our words affected you.
QED.

Also: The wall-o-sauce that Nanatsu has so generously been providing.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:38 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
The more amusing thing is that defensiveness is, of course, a defense mechanism to shield from, say, mental torment.
He's self-evidently weak under his own definition, because it is quite clear we're affecting him. =T

Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:http://www.education.com/reference/article/Ref_What_Happens_Over/?page=2

That's from http://www.education.com.

Relevant things to quote:


Researchers have noticed that, although with time, the memory of being bullied and the pain associated with it decrease, the experience is never forgotten.

Furthermore:

Yes, it can link to depression and whatnot. But it does not always, which is the point I am trying to make.
In regards to the whole "it is never forgotten" thing, I don't forget much things at all. Of course I am going to remember the bullying, I have a good memory. I also remember everything that happened around that.
All things are forgotten eventually. Bullying will surely be a bolder memory, but to me it is not that big of a deal. It was part of my life and I have to accept that.


And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.
Last edited by Nanatsu no Tsuki on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:39 am

IshCong wrote:
R Ev0lution wrote:So, by YOUR definition of psychological trauma, you don't have it, and by YOUR definition of psychologically-fragile, victims of verbally bulling are psychologically-fragile?

Well, forgive me if I don't really care what you think, because, unless you use Psychology Today as a bathroom reader and/or shadow a Psychiatrist as part of a Pre-Medical internship, I doubt you have the perspective or the expertise to attach remotely qualified or informed definitions to either of those terms.


Yeah, he said awhile ago that it is his definition, and admitted it is contrived and circular.
Which is why this is pointless, talking to him. He's fallen back on circular arguments and the ability to summon warped definitions into play to always make himself right.

No, just no.

I'm sure a guy like this considers someone like this guy's max bench press to be really low, even though to the latter it is really high. Weakness has no universal set rule, everyone defines weak in different ways - That's a fact.
I never gave my own definition to psychological trauma anyway, you are twisting my words.

Grenartia wrote:
Itanica wrote:By my definition of weak, they are weak.


I have a question. What makes your definition of weak so definitive? Shouldn't we be using a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak, as opposed to a subjective one?

Itanica wrote:Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?


Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...
Itanica wrote:Where are you from?
Where I am from, it's very commonplace to say "You are only calling him gay because you are gay yourself!".


I'm from the US. Specifically born in Tennessee, and raised in Louisiana. I've heard the sentiment behind the statement, but never used that often.

Itanica wrote:Even better example, actually.
Someone says you have Downs Syndrome. You know you don't have it, and you try and prove you don't. You get pretty defensive. But you don't actually go and get tested just to prove them wrong, do you? Even if you are not qualified to determine if you have it?


Actually, I wouldn't get defensive at all. If somebody told me I have it, I would tell them that I highly doubt I have it, but I can't rule it out, and that I'll seriously consider having myself tested for it as soon as my financial circumstances improve.

One of my closest friends was born with Downs Syndrome, but you actually wouldn't know it by the way she acts.

Also, your statement that I would get defensive about not having Downs Syndrome seems to imply that there is something bad about people who have it...

Then you are an exception.

Provide me with a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak then.
Last edited by Itanica on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:42 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Itanica wrote:Oh no, you are most certainly not getting to me. Don't think that you are.


Yes, it can link to depression and whatnot. But it does not always, which is the point I am trying to make.
In regards to the whole "it is never forgotten" thing, I don't forget much things at all. Of course I am going to remember the bullying, I have a good memory. I also remember everything that happened around that.
All things are forgotten eventually. Bullying will surely be a bolder memory, but to me it is not that big of a deal. It was part of my life and I have to accept that.


And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.

I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.
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Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
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2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
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Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
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IshCong
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Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:43 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
Yeah, he said awhile ago that it is his definition, and admitted it is contrived and circular.
Which is why this is pointless, talking to him. He's fallen back on circular arguments and the ability to summon warped definitions into play to always make himself right.

No, just no.

I'm sure a guy like this considers someone like this guy's max bench press to be really low, even though to the latter it is really high. Weakness has no universal set rule, everyone defines weak in different ways - That's a fact.
I never gave my own definition to psychological trauma anyway, you are twisting my words.


Your definition of 'weak' is self-fulfilling, and circular. People are weak, so they are affected by mental abuse, so they are weak, so...
You've created a definition that makes your entire argument right, despite the fact the definition serves only to make your argument right, and is otherwise totally arbitrary.

You pretty much just admitted what I've said with your post, only you tried to justify it. But there's no real justification for it, so you've failed. =T
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R Ev0lution
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Postby R Ev0lution » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:45 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
Yeah, he said awhile ago that it is his definition, and admitted it is contrived and circular.
Which is why this is pointless, talking to him. He's fallen back on circular arguments and the ability to summon warped definitions into play to always make himself right.

No, just no.

I'm sure a guy like this considers someone like this guy's max bench press to be really low, even though to the latter it is really high. Weakness has no universal set rule, everyone defines weak in different ways - That's a fact.
I never gave my own definition to psychological trauma anyway, you are twisting my words.


You attempted to self-diagnose psychological trauma without actually having any education or training on the topic. Maybe that's not "attaching your own definition" to the term, but, at the very least, it's "applying your nonexistent expertise to make a medical diagnosis about a set of conditions which you're in no way, shape, or form qualified to speak about."

Respond to my response to your Downs Syndrome challenge. I still feel neglected, and crave more intellectual sparring practice.
Last edited by R Ev0lution on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:45 am

Itanica wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
And we have been saying to you that your personal anecdote, although 'compelling' to you, is not a sustainable claim. You said words can't hurt, and the truth is that yes, they do and their effects are lasting. Being 'weak' or 'strong' isn't either a proper way to categorize since it is well known that anyone can be a victim of bullying. Peer reviewed articles and studies stand as background, solid, for that.

I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.


See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:52 am

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Itanica wrote:I already admitted my first position on "words cannot hurt" is wrong.

Yes, anyone can be a victim of bullying. Strong and weak people can be victims. The strong people deal with it and take it on the chin, the weak people either become stronger or stay weak and let it get to them.


See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?
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IshCong
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Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:53 am

Itanica wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?


More precise? Sure.
Still self-fulfilling and circular and arbitrary? Yup.
Still pointless? Yup.

Still a step in the right direction, I suppose. At least you have finally admitted the 'mentally strong' can suffer.
Last edited by IshCong on Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:53 am

R Ev0lution wrote:
Itanica wrote:You're telling me that if I said right now that you have Downs Syndrome, you would march down to the doctor and get a test - just to prove me wrong? While the thought of that is charming, I just don't feel the necessity to do that myself.


I've been to the doctor, and actually lived with a Pediatrician for 17 years of my life. Also, my parents did all the pre-birth and infant-age tests for virtually any condition you can think of, including the pre-natal test for Downs Syndrome.

I don't have it. Find another condition to use as an example. Again, I lived with a doctor for 17 years. I've been subjected every medical, psychological, and developmental test you can think of.

So, if you can think of a condition that would actually require me to book yet another visit to the doctor and/or psychologist in order to demonstrate that I don't have it, please, fire away.

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.
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Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:55 am

Itanica wrote:
R Ev0lution wrote:
I've been to the doctor, and actually lived with a Pediatrician for 17 years of my life. Also, my parents did all the pre-birth and infant-age tests for virtually any condition you can think of, including the pre-natal test for Downs Syndrome.

I don't have it. Find another condition to use as an example. Again, I lived with a doctor for 17 years. I've been subjected every medical, psychological, and developmental test you can think of.

So, if you can think of a condition that would actually require me to book yet another visit to the doctor and/or psychologist in order to demonstrate that I don't have it, please, fire away.

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.


Only the weak get cancer.
I am not weak.
Thus, I do not have cancer, and thus I am not weak.
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:56 am

IshCong wrote:
Itanica wrote:If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?


More precise? Sure.
Still self-fulfilling and circular and arbitrary? Yup.
Still pointless? Yup.

Define mentally weak and mentally strong for me, if you're so sure you have a better way of explaining it.

I am very strong mentally, so my standards are high. The same applies to physical strength. I will often be asked to lift something for someone, I will pick it up and it will be easy to me. I will be thinking "This is so light, they are weak!" Even though probably it is quite heavy, and my standards for strong and weak are just high because I am physically strong.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
-ATTACK READINESS CONDITION-
0 - Missiles Launched
1 - Ready for launch
2 - Doors opened
-> 3 - Systems online <-
4 - Power activated
5 - All systems offline
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Itanica
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Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:57 am

IshCong wrote:
Itanica wrote:You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.


Only the weak get cancer.
I am not weak.
Thus, I do not have cancer, and thus I am not weak.

Touché my friend, touché.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:57 am

Itanica wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?


Alright, here we go. Being weak, strong, black, white, Latino, Asian, smart, pretty, average, slow, have a name that is considered 'funny', and a myriad of other adjectives, can make you the target of bullies. Intensity of bullying may vary, but there are effects from it nevertheless. These can be short termed or long term. Either way, they both cause harm, regardless of perceptions of 'weakness' or 'strength'.

Is that clear or must I simplify this more than it already is?
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IshCong
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Founded: Aug 12, 2011
Libertarian Police State

Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:58 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
Only the weak get cancer.
I am not weak.
Thus, I do not have cancer, and thus I am not weak.

Touché my friend, touché.


Glad to hear it. Do you understand now?
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R Ev0lution
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Founded: Feb 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby R Ev0lution » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:06 am

Itanica wrote:
R Ev0lution wrote:
I've been to the doctor, and actually lived with a Pediatrician for 17 years of my life. Also, my parents did all the pre-birth and infant-age tests for virtually any condition you can think of, including the pre-natal test for Downs Syndrome.

I don't have it. Find another condition to use as an example. Again, I lived with a doctor for 17 years. I've been subjected every medical, psychological, and developmental test you can think of.

So, if you can think of a condition that would actually require me to book yet another visit to the doctor and/or psychologist in order to demonstrate that I don't have it, please, fire away.

You probably have Cancer. It's very possible.
Prove me wrong.


Great. I'm glad you came up with one I couldn't refute, because it actually brings me to my next point.

I admit that I may have cancer. Sure, I could Google the symptoms and tell you "I don't have it", and that would be it. But, see, there's no way of being certain until I go to the doctor to get full-body scans and colonoscopies and everything else they do. I am not qualified to make that diagnosis. In fact, by choosing not to go to the doctor to get checked up, I'm taking a risk that I may have cancer and am giving it time to develop, grow, and metastasize. However, that is a risk I'm taking, and, until a doctor performs all the necessary tests, I can't tell you, "No, dude, you're wrong. I don't have cancer."

So, until you go to a psychiatrist who can look you in the eye and say, "No, sir, you do not have psychological trauma resulting from your childhood experiences of bullying," I insist that you concede the point. Even if you Google the symptoms of psychological trauma and try to pull off an amateur self-diagnosis, there is absolutely no way to be sure that you don't have psychological trauma until an expert tells you so.

Thus, your argument that "I went through verbal bullying and I'm not traumatized" is flawed, because you're not qualified to say you're not, and nobody who is qualified agrees with you at this moment. A more accurate statement is that "I went through verbal bullying, and I don't think I'm traumatized, but I haven't seen a psychiatrist about that yet, so I might be wrong." Which, in case you didn't notice, weakens your argument significantly.
Last edited by R Ev0lution on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Itanica
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Posts: 1081
Founded: Nov 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:06 am

IshCong wrote:
Itanica wrote:Touché my friend, touché.


Glad to hear it. Do you understand now?

Yes, but that was merely just an extension to my main argument - That bullying is not always damaging. I stand firm in my point there. It is not always damaging.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
-ATTACK READINESS CONDITION-
0 - Missiles Launched
1 - Ready for launch
2 - Doors opened
-> 3 - Systems online <-
4 - Power activated
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IshCong
Senator
 
Posts: 4521
Founded: Aug 12, 2011
Libertarian Police State

Postby IshCong » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:08 am

Itanica wrote:
IshCong wrote:
Glad to hear it. Do you understand now?

Yes, but that was merely just an extension to my main argument - That bullying is not always damaging. I stand firm in my point there. It is not always damaging.


It isn't always severely damaging. But whether it is damaging or not has no bearing on whether somebody is 'weak' or not.
Even the strongest can fall. Implying that they fell because they are weak belittles their pain, and prevents them from properly seeking the help they need to recover, and so makes the situation worse for everyone.
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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Posts: 215564
Founded: Feb 10, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:10 am

IshCong wrote:
Itanica wrote:Yes, but that was merely just an extension to my main argument - That bullying is not always damaging. I stand firm in my point there. It is not always damaging.


It isn't always severely damaging. But whether it is damaging or not has no bearing on whether somebody is 'weak' or not.
Even the strongest can fall. Implying that they fell because they are weak belittles their pain, and prevents them from properly seeking the help they need to recover, and so makes the situation worse for everyone.


They always suffer damage. However, the damage can be either short or long termed. Or it can be both.

As for the last part, I agree.
≽^•⩊•^≼Bidh a h-uile dad a tha agus a bha, a sguir a bhith…-
Ye furry factbook. ≽^•⩊•^≼

Also: THERNSY!!
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Grenartia
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Posts: 47815
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Grenartia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:11 am

Itanica wrote:Then you are an exception.

Provide me with a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak then.


Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.

Itanica wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
See, that last part is what makes this whole circular argument of yours total piffle. A strong person can still suffer lasting damage from having being bullied.

I can't help but think that you just want to remain willfully ignorant of this, and that no matter how many sources are provided to you, you already made your mind. And oh what a narrow minded approach it has been.

If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?


As has been said, its still circular, but it is better than the previously used definition. You seem to be neglecting the degree of the abuse.

If 1 or 2 people are insulting you, and it is of a level that makes Fred Phelps look polite, and it gets to you, then I wouldn't consider that to be weak at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If an entire group of people (10 or more) are constantly harrassing you, in minor ways, and it gets to you- then how would you classify that?
Reject tradition, embrace modernity. People who call themselves based NEVER are.
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Itanica
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1081
Founded: Nov 16, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Itanica » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:16 am

Grenartia wrote:
Itanica wrote:Then you are an exception.

Provide me with a contextually relevant, objective definition of weak then.


Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.

Itanica wrote:If you are verbally bullied in the sense that you are ganged up on 24/7, then you don't have to be weak for it to get to you. You are just very strong if it doesn't
If you are verbally bullied moderately, 1 or 2 people regularly insulting you, and it gets to you - You are mentally weak.

Is that a more precise definition for you?


As has been said, its still circular, but it is better than the previously used definition. You seem to be neglecting the degree of the abuse.

If 1 or 2 people are insulting you, and it is of a level that makes Fred Phelps look polite, and it gets to you, then I wouldn't consider that to be weak at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If an entire group of people (10 or more) are constantly harrassing you, in minor ways, and it gets to you- then how would you classify that?

I would class it as like a group of young children running around me. Really annoying, but easily ignorable.
I assume by "minor ways" you mean things like getting called a dickhead or asshole, just petty words.
Last edited by Itanica on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
-ATTACK READINESS CONDITION-
0 - Missiles Launched
1 - Ready for launch
2 - Doors opened
-> 3 - Systems online <-
4 - Power activated
5 - All systems offline
Factbook
Red Star Weaponry
My only puppets are Exotica, Esperanzado and The Mamluks.

User avatar
Grenartia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 47815
Founded: Feb 14, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Grenartia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:23 am

Itanica wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.



As has been said, its still circular, but it is better than the previously used definition. You seem to be neglecting the degree of the abuse.

If 1 or 2 people are insulting you, and it is of a level that makes Fred Phelps look polite, and it gets to you, then I wouldn't consider that to be weak at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If an entire group of people (10 or more) are constantly harrassing you, in minor ways, and it gets to you- then how would you classify that?

I would class it as like a group of young children running around me. Really annoying, but easily ignorable.


So you agree that the degree of the harrassment matters.
Reject tradition, embrace modernity. People who call themselves based NEVER are.
She or they pronouns, please. Unrepentant transbian. Girlfriend of Jolthig. Steely-eyed missile woman.
Lib-left. Antifascist, antitankie, anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist (including the imperialism of non-western countries). Christian (Unitarian Universalist). Background in physics.
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R Ev0lution
Diplomat
 
Posts: 850
Founded: Feb 29, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby R Ev0lution » Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:23 am

Itanica wrote:
Grenartia wrote:
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.



As has been said, its still circular, but it is better than the previously used definition. You seem to be neglecting the degree of the abuse.

If 1 or 2 people are insulting you, and it is of a level that makes Fred Phelps look polite, and it gets to you, then I wouldn't consider that to be weak at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

If an entire group of people (10 or more) are constantly harrassing you, in minor ways, and it gets to you- then how would you classify that?

I would class it as like a group of young children running around me. Really annoying, but easily ignorable.


Would prank calls at 4 AM might be interpreted as minor or major? If you're a doctor who's on-call, and you're trying to get some sleep, and you get calls on your cell phone at 2 AM, 3 AM, 3:30 AM, 3:45 AM, 5 AM, and 6 AM, that would pretty much drive you crazy after a while, esp. considering you HAVE to pick up. A single one of those calls once at night might be fine. But 10 calls, every night, while you're on-call as a doctor? Unless you can operate on 15 minutes of sleep a day, it'd drive you crazy.

Also, if you think that sort of stress/harassment is "easily ignorable," and that doctors who start to lose it a bit and/or have serious drop-offs in the quality of their work are just "weak," I dare you to try dealing with it.

Friendly reminder: Respond to my other post on your Cancer challenge. I continue to crave intellectual combat.

Seriously.
Last edited by R Ev0lution on Fri Apr 13, 2012 3:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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