Not really, because socialism doesn't require state ownership of any means of production.
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by -St George » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:37 am
by Industrial Republics » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:38 am
by Sibs bottle of vodka » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:38 am
by Airstrip 100 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:41 am
Sibs bottle of vodka wrote:Airstrip 100 wrote:Using that incredibly narrow definition, America would be socialist as well, due to some of the means of production being controlledby the state.
In the USSR, 100% of the means of production were state owned. In the US, I dunno. I bet it's well north of 90% that are privately owned.
In Sweden, a successful capitalist nation that socialists love claiming credit for, more than 90% of industrial output is produced by privately owned firms.
by Pryssilvalia » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:18 am
by The USOT » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:40 am
Pryssilvalia wrote:Look, if Socialism is so great, why don't you guys go live in a Socialist country and see how unfeasible it is. If anything, history has shown us that a country following Socialism will eventually degrade into a dictatorship and/or a crap economy. You can argue that it's because it's done the wrong way or the government is corrupted, but that's precisely the point. Many countries have followed Socialism, so it's not difficult to see it.
by Pryssilvalia » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:48 am
The USOT wrote:Pryssilvalia wrote:Look, if Socialism is so great, why don't you guys go live in a Socialist country and see how unfeasible it is. If anything, history has shown us that a country following Socialism will eventually degrade into a dictatorship and/or a crap economy. You can argue that it's because it's done the wrong way or the government is corrupted, but that's precisely the point. Many countries have followed Socialism, so it's not difficult to see it.
Answer me this question. Have you ever heard of Cartelism? It is a capitalist system where big businesses are allowed to monopolise and breifly combine as much as they so desire. It was advocated and practiced in Imperial Germany for instance, screwing over small businesses and the little guys.
Now tell me, are all capitalist systems like this?
Because in the breif 100 years in which socialism has been practiced on large scale, we have only ever had 1 type of socialism, that being state socialism.
Of course, when capitalism goes through an experimental stage that results in death and starvation on mass scales, that of course has no bearing on capitalism as a whole right? So why is this not the same with socialism?
by The USOT » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:46 am
Pryssilvalia wrote:The USOT wrote:Answer me this question. Have you ever heard of Cartelism? It is a capitalist system where big businesses are allowed to monopolise and breifly combine as much as they so desire. It was advocated and practiced in Imperial Germany for instance, screwing over small businesses and the little guys.
Now tell me, are all capitalist systems like this?
Because in the breif 100 years in which socialism has been practiced on large scale, we have only ever had 1 type of socialism, that being state socialism.
Of course, when capitalism goes through an experimental stage that results in death and starvation on mass scales, that of course has no bearing on capitalism as a whole right? So why is this not the same with socialism?
Then you're practically arguing that the tried Socialism is the wrong method right? Then do enlighten others as to how would you fix it. Socialism is, at its foundation, an unfeasible economic philosophy, so long as people are still greedy and not altruistic - so regardless of how you fix it, it will still be crap.
‘It is thus seen that the wages paid for unskilled labour in York are insufficient to provide food, shelter, and clothing adequate to maintain a family of moderate size in a state of bare physical efficiency … no allowance is made for any expenditure other than that absolutely required for the maintenance of merely physical efficiency. And let us clearly understand what “merely physical efficiency” means. A family living upon the scale allowed for in this estimate must never spend a penny on railway fare or omnibus. They must never go into the country unless they walk. They must never purchase a halfpenny newspaper or spend a penny to buy a ticket for a popular concert. They must write no letters to absent children, for they cannot afford to pay the postage, must never contribute anything to their church or chapel, or give any help to a neighbour which costs them money. They cannot save, nor can they join a sick club or Trade Union, because they cannot pay the necessary subscriptions. The children must have no pocket money for dolls, marbles, or sweets. The father must smoke no tobacco, and must drink no beer. The mother must ever buy any pretty clothes for herself or for her children … Should a child fall ill, it must be attended by the parish doctor; should it die, it must be buried by the parish. Finally, the wage-earner must never be absent from work for a single day.’
by Sibirsky » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:33 am
by Nazis in Space » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:00 am
But... But... If Socialism isn't forced on people via a revolutionary movement that shoots the parasites who disagree with the concept, and then redistributes wealth among the movement's leaders, it cannot possibly satisfy adolescent fantasies of power and glory :(
by -St George » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:03 am
Pryssilvalia wrote:Look, if Socialism is so great, why don't you guys go live in a Socialist country and see how unfeasible it is. If anything, history has shown us that a country following Socialism will eventually degrade into a dictatorship and/or a crap economy. You can argue that it's because it's done the wrong way or the government is corrupted, but that's precisely the point. Many countries have followed Socialism, so it's not difficult to see it.
by Nazis in Space » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:13 am
*fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap*-St George wrote:Pryssilvalia wrote:Look, if Socialism is so great, why don't you guys go live in a Socialist country and see how unfeasible it is. If anything, history has shown us that a country following Socialism will eventually degrade into a dictatorship and/or a crap economy. You can argue that it's because it's done the wrong way or the government is corrupted, but that's precisely the point. Many countries have followed Socialism, so it's not difficult to see it.
Lol. There's never been a socialist country. There's been countries that called themselves socialist. Big difference.
by GeneralHaNor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:23 am
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.
by Der Teutoniker » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:29 am
Guernseyland wrote:Personally, I am socialist. POLITICS ISN'T A GAME.
South Lorenya wrote:occasionally we get someone who has a rap sheet longer than Jormungandr
Austin Setzer wrote:We found a couple of ancient documents, turned them into the bible, and now its the symbol of christianity.
ARM Forces wrote:Strep-throat is an infection in the throat, caused by eating too much refined sugar! Rubbing more sugar directly on it is the worst thing you can possibly do.
Dumb Ideologies wrote:Communism and anarchy; same unachievable end, different impractical means.
by -St George » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:20 am
Nazis in Space wrote:*fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap**fap*-St George wrote:Lol. There's never been a socialist country. There's been countries that called themselves socialist. Big difference.
Defining Feature of Socialism: Means of Production are state-owned.
You seriously saying no country has ever maintained state-ownership of the means of production?
OH! Wait, I get it now.
You're saying that no country has ever maintained state-ownership of the means of production while also maintaining the wet dreams of adolescent, starry-eyed idealists, since they all, quite inevitably so, realise the beautiful options provided for budding totalitarianism once the state owns everything, and can happily set wages as it pleases, release and withhold information as it pleases, limit access to transport infrastructure as it pleases, and limit production of necessities as well as luxury goods as it pleases, not to mention keeping innovation exactly as limited as it pleases.
In this case you're of course right. There's never been a socialist country, just as there's never been a country filled with rainbow-shitting, magical unicorns where everyone lives in peace and without worries - both of which have exactly the same probability of existing, and are equally worthwhile subjects to discuss.
by Cologno » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:05 am
GeneralHaNor wrote:
Socialism is the Workers Ownership of the Means of Production
Communism being the Communities Ownership of the Means of Production.
by GeneralHaNor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:17 am
Sythril wrote:capitalism
socialism is the "i dont care if you're a lazy bum who won't get a job, take this welfare from the taxpayers who do have jobs!"
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.
by Sibs bottle of vodka » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:22 am
by The USOT » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:52 am
Cologno wrote:GeneralHaNor wrote:
Socialism is the Workers Ownership of the Means of Production
Communism being the Communities Ownership of the Means of Production.
true,another big difference:
In socialism the fruit of labor is not collectivized...so ""From each according to his ability, to each according to his work "
in communism the fruit of labor is made collective...so "from each according to his ability. to each according to his needs"
another difference: communism is against market and moneyless ,socialism can be pro-market or against-market
I have noticed most people confuse socialism with communism so the various strawman about how "socialism can't work because human nature1111"
or they think that socialism is a immense welfare state
by Cologno » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:59 am
The USOT wrote:There isnt a difference between socialism and communism... Communism is an anarchistic style of socialism... Socialism encompasses both the Anarcho Syndicalists of Spain, all the way to the Juche socialists of North Korea, it isnt 1 specific economic practice...
It is like saying Oak is not wood...
by GeneralHaNor » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:03 am
Cologno wrote:The USOT wrote:There isnt a difference between socialism and communism... Communism is an anarchistic style of socialism... Socialism encompasses both the Anarcho Syndicalists of Spain, all the way to the Juche socialists of North Korea, it isnt 1 specific economic practice...
It is like saying Oak is not wood...
communism is a extreme-form of socialism where BOTH the means of production and the fruits of work are collectivized
all communists are socialists but not all socialists are communists
socialism is a economic system
communism is a economic AND political system
Victorious Decepticons wrote:If they said "this is what you enjoy so do this" and handed me a stack of my favorite video games, then it'd be far different. But governments don't work that way. They'd hand me a dishrag...
And I'd hand them an insurgency.
Trotskylvania wrote:Don't kid yourself. The state is a violent, destructive institution of class dictatorship. The fact that the proles have bargained themselves the drippings from their master's plates doesn't legitimize the state.
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