[DRAFT] Commend Devonitians

[Warzone Codger]

Text

The World Assembly,

Observing that The South Pacific Regional Government recently failed to provide security and safety of its native nations,

Concerned at the plight denizens in the region faced if overrun by a despot,

Saluting the nation of Devonitians for seeing the security breach and taking direct action to protect the member nations of The South Pacific from harm while The South Pacific Regional Government did not,

Admiring Devonitians' ascension to delegacy came from a direct appeal to natives of The South Pacific,

Recognising the honour in the immediate implementation of elections and an open political process so that the natives of The South Pacific could retake control,

Mindful Devonitians courageously defended the rights of The South Pacific member nations from external forces such as The FRA, who had thrown their support to the ousted, moribund regime,

Highlighting Devonitians daring, bold, and proactive actions have led directly to increased activity and an internal review by The South Pacific Regional Government, sowing the seeds for unity and renewed vigor in The South Pacific,

Hereby commends Devonitians

Co-authored by Punk Reloaded

Dear Friends,

I present to the Security Council a proposal to commend Devonitians. I understand this is a controversial proposal, because some just see a 'couper' but I believe we are able to look beyond simple labels and judge situations themselves.

Devonitians' delegacy was a result of a set of circumstances that allowed to occur. The TSP had been down on activity and lax on security. TSP own actions presented itself a ripe target that if it was not Devonitians, another person would of eventually took it. It is the way of the world.

Yet it person who took it was Devonitians, and his actions were best practices for situation that had to happen. He put himself in Delegacy from endorsements of natives. Some would dispute that, but consider what is nativity in a Feeder? Feeders are places where new nations are born and where many nations who aren't "ambitious" -They are happy to just answer issues/vote on WA resolution without caring for the wider game- stay. You can not apply the same standard to them as in userities, where you can class only vocal nations to be natives. For a feeder, as long as they intend to stay and are not agents for a foreign party they are natives.

Devonitians took the delegacy from approaching these nations, thus he was supported by natives.

Next, when Devonitians became delegate he did not incite a reign of terror, but introduced a political plan that, at least what he genuinely thought, would improve The South Pacific. Others might consider the plan flawed, (Complaints such as suppression, banjectings, not acknowledging the off site forums) but it was consented by those natives who endorsed him into delegacy, who outnumbered those consenting the previous system. They decided to entrust him and his plan, both the good bits (and there are many good bits) and the flawed bits over the existing system. We should respect that, whatever we outsiders think.

As an aside, arguments he is illegitimate/a bad person because did not follow regulations for the region set by the off site forum government are flawed: He does not have to acknowledge it if he showed he was supported by natives, which he was, for that itself is an indication of non-confidence for the entire system completely.

Thirdly, he also had to battle with FRA who controversially took a side that many considered (across the world and even within FRA) to be an internal matter. This is besides the point of whether Dev was a good or bad delegate according to the views of the region -he shouldn't have to deal with external forces and he did so admirably. Only the natives in the region should be deciding that. One could argue the natives would of switched back to Southern Bells (and the whole system associated with that) eventually even without FRA, (Personally I think so, hence I try to help the TSP now) but what has happened has happened, we won't know.

Finally, we should clear our preconception and look at the results. The TSP and its Government *is* more active, and *is* pro-actively looking into reforms. This commendation is not meant to be an rant of the TSP now: They had their shock and I'm optimistic about them for the future, I'm even giving my own little advice to aid them where I can. I hope to continue doing so, just I acknowledge that what is now started with Devonitians.

Concluding, The Security Council should commend Devonitians to set a standard of behaviour when a region has put itself in a situation where a taking of the delegacy' would inevitability happen.

I yield the floor.

[The Bruce]

I think a commendation might be in order if Devonitians had held onto the delegacy a bit longer and then made huge improvements to the South Pacific. As it stands, they endorsement traded themselves to power, likely without being honest about their intent to the people they were trading endorsements with. Then after gaining the delegacy spent most of their time suppressing messages on their board and didn't last very long. Their defeat was mainly due to an unendorse campaign by nations inside the South Pacific, after being made aware of what had happened. The fact that they were able to do so due to lax security and inactivity in the South Pacific makes the act even less worthy of praise or condemnation, depending on your perspective. It doesn't seem worthy or either a commendation or a condemnation for that matter, unless you were to count the unintentional political ramifications outside of the South Pacific, as a result of this rampant endorsement swapping.

[The Bruce]

Given recent developments on this situation

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=115613

You might want to reconsider your position of this commendation or at least add relevant details that have emerged.

[Punk Reloaded]

And Biyah does it again.



I'd lke to put this Commendation on hold pending further investigation.

[Punk Reloaded]

After some review, let's move forward with this commendation.

Per rule IV nations should be treated as such and Devonitians is no more Sedge than I am. Let's see if Rule IV has any merit or is just a paper concept.

[Daynor]

After some review, let's move forward with this commendation.

Per rule IV nations should be treated as such and Devonitians is no more Sedge than I am. Let's see if Rule IV has any merit or is just a paper concept.

The concepts of 'puppets' is not against Rule IV. We can say one nation is a puppet of another in proposals. At least, we always have been able to. Not sure if anyone's checked the magic eight ball of Rule IV rulings soon.

[Mahaj WA Seat]

I am now adamantly opposed to this.

[Punk Reloaded]

Is this draft ok from a semantics perspective? Looking for a MOD ruling in order to submit this.

[Sedgistan]

I'm not seeing any legality issues in it. That's a personal opinion rather than a mod ruling, though.

[Lordieth]

I have made my feelings quite clear elsewhere. I'm afraid I am strongly apposed. The only thing I applaud is taking the delegacy, and I don't think that in itself is worthy of commendation, especially given that outside help had to be called in.

No disrespect, but an emphatic 'no' from me.

[Punk Daddy]

Outside help wasn't needed to take the delegacy, imo. Retain it? Sure. But I think native support was easily enough to take the delgacy in this case.

[The Cat-Tribe]

From another thread:

I do not allege, nor do I believe, any Mod, including but not limited to Sedge, abused his or her powers in the "Devonitians" kerfluffle.

But several players lied -- repeatedly, to several different groups and individuals.

And the Delegacy of TSP was seized by trickery (and outside help).

And the rule of "Devonitians" was a tryannical farce.

Finally and most importantly, we of The South Pacific ought to be entitled to play this game as we choose. We may have been too trusting and "lack" in our security. We may have been naive in believing in the rule of law, freedom of speech, and other values. We may not have wished to be on constant guard of takeover everytime we made a friendly exchange of endorsements.

We may not play the game the way Sedgistan apparently perfers. We may not play the game the way Punk Daddy perfers. Of course, neither are players (except as proxies) in our region.

For all the talk about how "inactive" and apparently "horrible" TSP was, the World Assembly not so long ago Commended our former Delegate, Fudgetopia, and myself. But I guess we are still poor players.

For all the talk about how terrible Southern Bellz leadership was, it took trickery and lies to unseat her. No one openly declared they were seeking to become Delegate. As soon as residents of TSP learned of the coup, they flocked to Southern Bellz defense -- despite being both expressly threatened not to do so and ejected in large numbers for endorsing her. It was not "outside forces" that overthrew "Devonitians," it was the natives of TSP. And Southern Bellz's endorsements have more than tripled (IIRC) since the coup.

We didn't "need" the interference. We didn't "need" the petty games. We didn't "need" to be terrorized, suppressed, and/or ejected. Just because we didn't fill some expectation of some players from other regions, we didn't need any of this. And to the extent we are now more alert and making improvements, the credit goes to us -- the natives of TSP -- for being resilient and sticking by our principles.

[Todd McCloud]

I can commend this nation for taking a stance and waking up a feeder. However, noting the ties this nation has with another nation, I feel it would be simply an added "badge" to his collection and, therefore, I cannot support this. Had it been a bit more prolonged, or had this nation (rather, the player behind it) been concerned with the growth and development of the region at hand, I'd be more inclined to support it.

[Lordieth]

Outside help wasn't needed to take the delegacy, imo. Retain it? Sure. But I think native support was easily enough to take the delgacy in this case.

You may be right. However I find the way that Devon conducted himself during his delegacy suspect. We never even saw the end-game because he lost the seat. It's all still a bit iffy to me.

[Unibot II]

ACTIVELY OPPOSED!

Next, when Devonitians became delegate he did not incite a reign of terror, but introduced a political plan that, at least what he genuinely thought, would improve The South Pacific. Others might consider the plan flawed, (Complaints such as suppression, banjectings, not acknowledging the off site forums) but it was consented by those natives who endorsed him into delegacy, who outnumbered those consenting the previous system. They decided to entrust him and his plan, both the good bits (and there are many good bits) and the flawed bits over the existing system. We should respect that, whatever we outsiders think.

This simply isn't true, Sedge had as much or more external support from raiding groups than SB had, and SB's external support was, with the exception of the FRA, all regions that were defense allies of the South Pacific.

He does not have to acknowledge it if he showed he was supported by natives, which he was, for that itself is an indication of non-confidence for the entire system completely.

This argument is flawed because it only took a couple of updates for the natives to awake and see the destruction that Sedge had cost the region -- he quickly lost the delegacy after this as endorsements switched from Dev to SB. Sedge put in place various political policies that were not necessary to commit to a democratic revolution (in fact he undermined democracy in various occasions) -- things like the suppression of many honest and good-willed natives like the Cat-Tribe simply because they were outspoken against Dev, closing down embassies, removing forum links. There is nothing commendable about how Sedge went about this, nor is it impressive that the confidence in Dev appeared so high in the region, when in fact, Sedge was suppressing post after post that opposed him and the blame of Dev losing the delegacy was mostly directed at foreign intervention when in fact, SB and various members of his cabinet ran a superb tarting campaign and quickly surpassed Dev in endos once sleepy natives realized they had elected a couping dictator into power.

This is besides the point of whether Dev was a good or bad delegate according to the views of the region -he shouldn't have to deal with external forces and he did so admirably. Only the natives in the region should be deciding that.

Ha, so only the natives should be deciding whether or not Dev stays in power -- even though Sedge had support from outsider raider groups long before the FRA decided to intervene.

One could argue the natives would of switched back to Southern Bells (and the whole system associated with that) eventually even without FRA, (Personally I think so, hence I try to help the TSP now) but what has happened has happened, we won't know.

This happened -- the FRA only deployed like three, maybe four soldiers. The final result could not have been done without a major swing of native endorsements.

Finally, we should clear our preconception and look at the results. The TSP and its Government *is* more active, and *is* pro-actively looking into reforms.

Then commend individuals who care enough about the region that they've taken up the job of improving the region, I think someone like Topid is a good candidate, I believe he has announced his candidacy for delegate or is planning to do so soon. There is very little that is commendable about how Sedge went about this whole mess, in fact, it's a complete disgrace and that is probably why he hid his identity (he probably would have been successful with his coup if he had done it as Sedgistan). So why commend the person who started the forest fire, when the people who make the real contributions, like putting the fire out and especially those making the effort to plant new trees are the ones who deserve recognition the most for their time, dedication and effort to improve the South Pacific? Note, the Security Council commended both Fudge and TCT, it would be a large contradiction on our books to now speak out against their government, when they both actively opposed Sedge's rogue occupancy of the South Pacific.

If Sedge actually cared about the South Pacific, he'd be out there trying to improve the South Pacific -- even with the legitimate government still in power. He could take up a government position (he has resigned in the past) there, spark activity there with creative programs or lobbying, whatever. Instead, he pulled a political stunt, underestimated how much the natives supported their own government, conducting his coup like a feeder dictator, lost the confidence of the natives and the interregional community and now is taking his ball and going home --> making snarky statements about the Founderless 'Kingmakers' Alliance or just badmouthing them, pushing for a repeal of a FRA bill that necessitated opposition to his coup and obnoxiously stating that he does not recognize the legitimacy of the South Pacifican government. I'm not sure if one event can undermine a commended career of contributions by Sedge, but this event certainly makes me wonder.

[Rachel Anumia]

Weren't there other regions that supported Southern Bellz as well? I haven't seen proof that Devonitians had more foreign support than Southern Bellz or visa versa besides opinions. Could you provide that Unibot, in order to back up your claims?

[Unibot II]

Weren't there other regions that supported Southern Bellz as well? I haven't seen proof that Devonitians had more foreign support than Southern Bellz or visa versa besides opinions. Could you provide that Unibot, in order to back up your claims?

The South Pacific has always had defense allies, these regions supported SB if they could get in without Sedge banning them.

Honestly I don't have access to that information anymore, I remember there were more identified group names supporting Devonitians, but Southern Bellz may have had more external support in numbers -- I doubt it however as Sedge was banning externals that supported SB, remember, so it made it much more challenging for externals to support SB than Dev. I do know for certain, Dev fell from the delegacy because the natives swung their endorsements back to SB, basically -- there was a major swing of endorsements which was accomplished by a combination of a rather great tarting campaign and dictatorial policies by Sedge that natives grew suspicious. The foreign support was really just icing on the electoral cake for SB, except when the two parties were tight on the major update liberation which failed.

[Improving Wordiness]

Oppose this. NOTHING Commendable about those actions.

[Flemingovia]

^ what he said. I see nothing here to commend.

[Bears Armed]

This happened -- the FRA only deployed like three, maybe four soldiers.

Did the FRA as an organisation deploy those soldiers, or are we actually just talking about a few FRA members who chose to get involved personally without any involvement by the FRA's operational staff as such?

[Sedgistan]

I do know for certain, Dev fell from the delegacy because the natives swung their endorsements back to SB, basically -- there was a major swing of endorsements which was accomplished by a combination of a rather great tarting campaign and dictatorial policies by Sedge that natives grew suspicious. The foreign support was really just icing on the electoral cake for SB, except when the two parties were tight on the major update liberation which failed.

What you're missing there is that GreenGremlins was 2 endorsements away from beating SB to the delegacy at the end, and was entirely native-endorsed, as against SB who had multiple endorsements from outsiders.

[Unibot II]

I do know for certain, Dev fell from the delegacy because the natives swung their endorsements back to SB, basically -- there was a major swing of endorsements which was accomplished by a combination of a rather great tarting campaign and dictatorial policies by Sedge that natives grew suspicious. The foreign support was really just icing on the electoral cake for SB, except when the two parties were tight on the major update liberation which failed.

What you're missing there is that GreenGremlins was 2 endorsements away from beating SB to the delegacy at the end, and was entirely native-endorsed, as against SB who had multiple endorsements from outsiders.

No doubt, the natives were endorsing anyone that was close to overthrowing you -- even Fudge was making a comeback. And do you have proof he was entirely native-endorsed? Additionally SB's native support is higher than it has been for most of her term, I think its clear what's happened is that she had been neglecting to tart, not that she has lost the confidence of her region. As GreenGremlins was not using the challenge system outlined in the South Pacific Body of Laws, the South Pacific had a perfectly good reason to ask for foreign support to defend the government from complete annihilation until such time that tarting took into effect as it has.

[Rachel Anumia]

What you're missing there is that GreenGremlins was 2 endorsements away from beating SB to the delegacy at the end, and was entirely native-endorsed, as against SB who had multiple endorsements from outsiders.

No doubt, the natives were endorsing anyone that was close to overthrowing you -- even Fudge was making a comeback.

No doubt?

[Mallorea and Riva]

I throw my support behind the opposition.
Against.

[Punk Reloaded]

You know the easy thing to do is not support this. Call Sedge all kinds of names (I have ) and talk about how dastardly he is.

That's very easy.

The difficult thing to do would be to step back and objectively look at what Devonitians ACTUALLY did. First he realized that the TSP regime would not have changed if he just said, "hey, you guys are inactive and we need changes." Too many people have been there, done that, have the t-shirt and scars to prove it.

So instead of beating his head against a wall, he decided to act.

His actions directly, not indirectly but DIRECTLY, led to the changes going on in the South Pacific. With no Devonitians, there is no change.

He MUST be commended on those grounds.