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Debt Ceiling To Be GOP "Leverage Moment"

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Late Republican Rome
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Postby Late Republican Rome » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:29 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:Well, ancient Rome had no income tax, and they met their budget most years. Then again, their welfare state was small, too. Just the grain dole, which was supplemented by private donations.

Rome used a head-tax instead. Don't make it out that they never taxed anyone. The Empire also had an extensive ... empire from which to draw funds. And there were periodic financial crises and currency devaluations, too. It wasn't as simple as you make it out.


The head tax was reserved for wars during the Republic. Yes, the tribute from provincials helped, but then Rome also respected their autonomy while protecting them, so it was a good deal. Unless you lived in Asia Province, but several Roman magistrates took action to stop the tax-farming there. One of the few flaws in the system, tax-farming, courtesy of Gaius Sempronius Gracchus.

The financial crises were resolved usually by the peace dividend when the wars ended with plenty of loot.

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:29 am

F1-Insanity wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:actually, 'frugality' has been acting as a serious retardant on the recovery, and the proposed further cuts are expected to cost a couple hundred thousand jobs and drag down GDP by a percent or two. adding much more to the debt, on the other hand, would be excellent for the economy right now.

literally, we are still in a situation where we would benefit from paying people to dig holes and paying other people to fill them back in - though obviously we'd benefit even more from more productive uses of labor.


Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay for people digging 'effin holes'?

Oh wait... more borrowing...

wow, how responsible of you... spoken like a typical democrat: goodies NOW, screw the next generations.


and yet, no words on the corporate tax cuts, no words on the Bush tax cuts, and no words on the fact that our current tax codes allow 2/3rd of corporations to pay absolutely no corporate taxes.

I am amazed.

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F1-Insanity
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Postby F1-Insanity » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:29 am

Farnhamia wrote:
F1-Insanity wrote:
Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay for people digging 'effin holes'?

Oh wait... more borrowing...

wow, how responsible of you... spoken like a typical democrat: goodies NOW, screw the next generations.

You miss the rest of the plan. The hole-diggers spend that money, the economy improves, the hole-diggers get jobs doing something else, the hole-digging project gets shut down, tax revenue goes up as more people work and the deficit is reduced. You need to think this stuff through, you know.


In other words, if the government paid every one of its employees a thousand bucks per hour, they could spend all that money and the economy would improve... except for that tiny flaw in the plan... and not the part where it wasn't properly thought through...
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Think about the numbers in terms that we can relate to. Remove eight zeros from the numbers and pretend it is the household budget for the fictitious Jones family:
-Total annual income for the Jones family: $21,700
-Amount of money the Jones family spent: $38,200
-Amount of new debt added to the credit card: $16,500
-Outstanding balance on the credit card: $142,710

-Amount cut from the budget: $385
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Late Republican Rome
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Postby Late Republican Rome » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:31 am

F1-Insanity wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:You miss the rest of the plan. The hole-diggers spend that money, the economy improves, the hole-diggers get jobs doing something else, the hole-digging project gets shut down, tax revenue goes up as more people work and the deficit is reduced. You need to think this stuff through, you know.


In other words, if the government paid every one of its employees a thousand bucks per hour, they could spend all that money and the economy would improve... except for that tiny flaw in the plan... and not the part where it wasn't properly thought through...


....exactly, when they run out of other people's money. :clap:

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:31 am

Wilgrove wrote:
F1-Insanity wrote:
Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay for people digging 'effin holes'?

Oh wait... more borrowing...

wow, how responsible of you... spoken like a typical democrat: goodies NOW, screw the next generations.


and yet, no words on the corporate tax cuts, no words on the Bush tax cuts, and no words on the fact that our current tax codes allow 2/3rd of corporations to pay absolutely no corporate taxes.

I am amazed.

Or that taxes are as low as they've been in ages, and that during eras of great prosperity, such as the 50s and the 90s, they were higher.
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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:33 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Wilgrove wrote:
and yet, no words on the corporate tax cuts, no words on the Bush tax cuts, and no words on the fact that our current tax codes allow 2/3rd of corporations to pay absolutely no corporate taxes.

I am amazed.

Or that taxes are as low as they've been in ages, and that during eras of great prosperity, such as the 50s and the 90s, they were higher.

Tax revenue has been remarkably stable, no matter what the tax rates were. Now, they are low due to the recession.
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:34 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Provisional America wrote:
The Tea Party are inconsistent at best. Only the libertarian wing of it has any chance of saving this country.

Which is why people are flocking to them in thousands, nay, tens of thousands.

nay HUNDREDS.
whatever

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:34 am

Ashmoria wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Which is why people are flocking to them in thousands, nay, tens of thousands.

nay HUNDREDS.

Nay.
Freedom ... or cake. ~ Ashmoria (RIP)
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
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RIP Dyakovo

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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:35 am

Lerro wrote:Didn't Obama vote against raising the debt limit in '06? Why did he want to wreck the economy?

who cares?

let every idiot teabagger vote against it.

we only need the rational vote to get the thing done.
whatever

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:36 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Provisional America wrote:You, sir, have what we in America call "common sense". 8)

the same sort of common sense that says that a 16 pound bowling ball should fall faster than a 3 ounce bouncy ball.

wow.

exactly.
whatever

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Free Soviets
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Postby Free Soviets » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:37 am

F1-Insanity wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:literally, we are still in a situation where we would benefit from paying people to dig holes and paying other people to fill them back in - though obviously we'd benefit even more from more productive uses of labor.

Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay for people digging 'effin holes'?

Oh wait... more borrowing...

yep. lots and lots of it - to the point where more would start crowding out private investment and getting inflation up to dangerous levels and such. see, this is the neat thing; borrowing now is the economically right thing to do.

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:37 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Wilgrove wrote:
and yet, no words on the corporate tax cuts, no words on the Bush tax cuts, and no words on the fact that our current tax codes allow 2/3rd of corporations to pay absolutely no corporate taxes.

I am amazed.

Or that taxes are as low as they've been in ages, and that during eras of great prosperity, such as the 50s and the 90s, they were higher.


It's almost like the tax rates has no bearing on how much profit a corporation would make. It has to do with supply and demand, but that couldn't be! Because that'd mean that the Republican and Teabaggers ideology is flawed, and that simply cannot be.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:38 am

Provisional America wrote:
Lerro wrote:Didn't Obama vote against raising the debt limit in '06? Why did he want to wreck the economy?


Frugality won't wreck the economy, but our crippling national debt will, if it is allowed to continue.

Of course, getting out of these damned "nation-building" wars would be a start. We went into Afghanistan to get bin Laden. He's still missing and we're still there, a decade later. Give it up already. He's probably in Germany now, if he isn't dead. If we were going to catch him, we would have. This business of repeating the Soviet mistake of 1979 is just plain dumb.

you know how when in your real life you dont pay your bills you go from a 3% credit card interest rate to a 30% credit card interest rate and then you are well and truly fucked?

same for the feds.
whatever

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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:39 am

Free Soviets wrote:
F1-Insanity wrote:Where do you suggest the money comes from to pay for people digging 'effin holes'?

Oh wait... more borrowing...

yep. lots and lots of it - to the point where more would start crowding out private investment and getting inflation up to dangerous levels and such. see, this is the neat thing; borrowing now is the economically right thing to do.

What do you do when the interest you must pay on your dent goes up to the point of the governments ability to raise revenue? Sell land? Cut all services?
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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:40 am

Wilgrove wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Or that taxes are as low as they've been in ages, and that during eras of great prosperity, such as the 50s and the 90s, they were higher.


It's almost like the tax rates has no bearing on how much profit a corporation would make. It has to do with supply and demand, but that couldn't be! Because that'd mean that the Republican and Teabaggers ideology is flawed, and that simply cannot be.

Personal income taxes, and corporate income taxes, together, have very little fluctuation as a percentage of GDP.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
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2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:41 am

Ashmoria wrote:
Provisional America wrote:
Frugality won't wreck the economy, but our crippling national debt will, if it is allowed to continue.

Of course, getting out of these damned "nation-building" wars would be a start. We went into Afghanistan to get bin Laden. He's still missing and we're still there, a decade later. Give it up already. He's probably in Germany now, if he isn't dead. If we were going to catch him, we would have. This business of repeating the Soviet mistake of 1979 is just plain dumb.

you know how when in your real life you dont pay your bills you go from a 3% credit card interest rate to a 30% credit card interest rate and then you are well and truly fucked?

same for the feds.

The Feds can't get fucked. It'll be us.

This basically sums up why I support raising the debt ceiling.
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
Свободный рынок капитализма, путь к процветанию
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2 Silver, 4 Bronze medals V Winter Olympics
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Late Republican Rome
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Postby Late Republican Rome » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:44 am

Ashmoria wrote:
Provisional America wrote:
Frugality won't wreck the economy, but our crippling national debt will, if it is allowed to continue.

Of course, getting out of these damned "nation-building" wars would be a start. We went into Afghanistan to get bin Laden. He's still missing and we're still there, a decade later. Give it up already. He's probably in Germany now, if he isn't dead. If we were going to catch him, we would have. This business of repeating the Soviet mistake of 1979 is just plain dumb.

you know how when in your real life you dont pay your bills you go from a 3% credit card interest rate to a 30% credit card interest rate and then you are well and truly fucked?

same for the feds.


Don't talk down to people. It reinforces the impression of liberal bias and arrogance. Especially since he was making the same point, but using the war as an example of a needless expense. The way to pay off the debt is to eliminate most spending and taxes, so that the economy will boom, the budget will balance, and you will have a surplus to pay back the debts we owe. Keynesian economics are inherently flawed. Government doesn't create wealth. It consumes, devours, destroys, steals, and spends wealth, but it doesn't create it.
Last edited by Late Republican Rome on Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:44 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:you know how when in your real life you dont pay your bills you go from a 3% credit card interest rate to a 30% credit card interest rate and then you are well and truly fucked?

same for the feds.

The Feds can't get fucked. It'll be us.

This basically sums up why I support raising the debt ceiling.

true

and everyone knows this (im not too sure about the teabaggers they are particularly stupid) so its foolish for the republicans to pretend that they will destory us all if they dont get some theoretical concession. if they wont shutdown the government rather than give up on defunding planned parenthood they wont destroy the world economy to do so.
whatever

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Postby Free Soviets » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:45 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:yep. lots and lots of it - to the point where more would start crowding out private investment and getting inflation up to dangerous levels and such. see, this is the neat thing; borrowing now is the economically right thing to do.

What do you do when the interest you must pay on your dent goes up to the point of the governments ability to raise revenue? Sell land? Cut all services?

you change policies when you are in a position to do so while minimizing the harm to human well-being. the other option is to take steps to avoid issues that aren't currently problems at the expense of making the current problems worse. and that's not just silly, but evil.

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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:46 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:What do you do when the interest you must pay on your dent goes up to the point of the governments ability to raise revenue? Sell land? Cut all services?

you change policies when you are in a position to do so while minimizing the harm to human well-being. the other option is to take steps to avoid issues that aren't currently problems at the expense of making the current problems worse. and that's not just silly, but evil.

Like borrowing more, huh?
Free market capitalism, path to prosperity
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Ashmoria
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Postby Ashmoria » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:46 am

Late Republican Rome wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:you know how when in your real life you dont pay your bills you go from a 3% credit card interest rate to a 30% credit card interest rate and then you are well and truly fucked?

same for the feds.


Don't talk down to people. It reinforces the impression of liberal bias and arrogance. Especially since he was making the same point, but using the war as an example of a needless expense. The way to pay off the debt is to eliminate most spending and taxes, so that the economy will boom, the budget will balance, and you will have a surplus to pay back the debts we owe. Keynesian economics are inherently flawed.

frugality WILL wreck our economy.

the only way through this is to stimulate the economy so that people get back to work. the quicker the better. THEN we can stop the wars (please god that it is already in the works), get rid of the bush tax cuts and see where we need to cut to get to a balanced budget.

you cant fix it by artifically lowering spending. where will people get the money to buy stuff and get the economy going?
whatever

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Late Republican Rome
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Postby Late Republican Rome » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:48 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:you change policies when you are in a position to do so while minimizing the harm to human well-being. the other option is to take steps to avoid issues that aren't currently problems at the expense of making the current problems worse. and that's not just silly, but evil.

Like borrowing more, huh?


He's hopeless, just like Ashmoria. Both are clearly at least Keynesian, if not worse.

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Free Soviets
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Postby Free Soviets » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:52 am

Sibirsky wrote:
Free Soviets wrote:you change policies when you are in a position to do so while minimizing the harm to human well-being. the other option is to take steps to avoid issues that aren't currently problems at the expense of making the current problems worse. and that's not just silly, but evil.

Like borrowing more, huh?

we don't have a problem with crowding out currently. and right now the only problem we have with inflation is that it is too low. what we have is a massive problem of idleness - in terms of unemployment, underemployment, empty storefronts, you name it. my way solves the current problem without causing any significant changes to the medium and long-term future-problems.

after all, it isn't borrowing during a downturn that is the future-problem here. its the all-consuming behemoth of our broken medical system and the republican party's dysfunctional and unserious politics.

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Sibirsky
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Postby Sibirsky » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:54 am

Free Soviets wrote:
Sibirsky wrote:Like borrowing more, huh?

we don't have a problem with crowding out currently. and right now the only problem we have with inflation is that it is too low. what we have is a massive problem of idleness - in terms of unemployment, underemployment, empty storefronts, you name it. my way solves the current problem without causing any significant changes to the medium and long-term future-problems.

after all, it isn't borrowing during a downturn that is the future-problem here. its the all-consuming behemoth of our broken medical system and the republican party's dysfunctional and unserious politics.

We do have a problem with inflation. Food, energy are up significantly.

And don't tell me that food and energy are excluded for a reason from the CPI. Food and energy are 2 of the most basic needs.
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Evigglaede
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Postby Evigglaede » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:22 pm

Ashmoria wrote:
Late Republican Rome wrote:
Don't talk down to people. It reinforces the impression of liberal bias and arrogance. Especially since he was making the same point, but using the war as an example of a needless expense. The way to pay off the debt is to eliminate most spending and taxes, so that the economy will boom, the budget will balance, and you will have a surplus to pay back the debts we owe. Keynesian economics are inherently flawed.

frugality WILL wreck our economy.

the only way through this is to stimulate the economy so that people get back to work. the quicker the better. THEN we can stop the wars (please god that it is already in the works), get rid of the bush tax cuts and see where we need to cut to get to a balanced budget.

you cant fix it by artifically lowering spending. where will people get the money to buy stuff and get the economy going?

The wars never ends doing the last 60 years almost every prsident has been to war eventhough the latest is probbably the most ekspensive since the vietnam and korean war. I find it quit shooking that the amarican goverment have now runed for almost six month without an official budget. It indicates the debt of the amarican crisis. The fact is tha the kenyian policy this were started by Bush and now is continued by Obama is flawed. Doing the last 10 years the amarican goverment has tried to make growth through increased spendins and tax cuts and all it has achived is inflation, an astronomical debt of historical proportion and the submarked crises. Amarica needs to reduce cost and prehaps increasse taxs in order to balance the ecconomy and they need to do it soon every day the debt growths paying it bak becomes more dificult. The truth is you cant spend yur way to an increased growed in the long run. All kenyian policy aims to do is to smooth the economical instabilities. You cant create money just by spending them if that were the case we wouldn´t haveeconomical crises. The population of the U.S.A needs to realish that they have been on an unhealthy spending spree for the last 10 yearsand that this need to end. So if the repblicans have finaly realised the economical problems they for a large part caused them self nd are willing to finnaly make a realistic effort at reducing the budget deficit. I dont think it´s cracy but ofcausse they will need to take new loans atleast to buffer the budget to the end of this year or the gowerment would have to declear itself bankrupt or make a cut in ekspenses that were to drastical. And remember the rest of the world will suffer greatly is the ammarican economy colapses but the world ecconomy will surweiv.

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