Kill Bill Volume 3

[Helertia]

Even Sibirsky agrees. Oh God.

At least this will lead to riots.

Do you mean the Republicans or Sibirsky agreeing?

[Cannot think of a name]

That's fantabulous. But I wasn't asking you about your original post. At this point asking you questions is like asking a magic eight ball, where the answers might relate to what I actually asked. In the future, to avoid confusion, be sure to read carefully the post that has been quoted and the question asked so you're not going through pages of non-sequitor.

I don't know what you're asking me anymore.

And of course, all of our writing has been stricken from the record, lost to history, never to be seen again...no one could go back and look at the first quote and look at what was asked, ever ever ever.

I think your entire exchange in the past few hours is each of you saying that the other wasn't addressing what the original post was. There's probably a metaphor in there somewhere.

No, that's what I've been saying. And he's been answering it with random unsupported 'facts' that have nothing to do with what I was asking. Only finally did he address his 'original post' which I didn't ask him about.

[Wamitoria]

At least this will lead to riots.

There are riots in my head. Does that count?

Not really. Unions will be extremely pissed (Egyptian protester pissed) if this happens.

[Wamitoria]

At least this will lead to riots.

Do you mean the Republicans or Sibirsky agreeing?

Republicans.

[Helertia]

Do you mean the Republicans or Sibirsky agreeing?

Republicans.

Oh, right xD
I hardly think riots are a good thing. People get hurt for starters, and politically they have the potential to inspire a siege mentality.

[Helertia]

There are riots in my head. Does that count?

Not really. Unions will be extremely pissed (Egyptian protester pissed) if this happens.

If it's just the Unions that get pissed then we have a serious problem. The unions go bonkers (quite rightly) and the people step back and go "Woah, these unions are bad for America"

[Wamitoria]

Republicans.

Oh, right xD
I hardly think riots are a good thing. People get hurt for starters, and politically they have the potential to inspire a siege mentality.

Here's how it goes: Republicans jam through right-to-work law (lol). Unions go on strike to protest the law after it goes into effect. Businesses fire workers. The economy goes in the toilet. Unions get pissed, organized, start recruiting disaffected unemployed people and the working poor, and start protesting more violently. Police are sent in. Police go on strike as well. National Guard comes in. Federal government forced to act to avoid a "Bleeding Indiana"/"Bleeding Wisconsin" scenario. Right-to-work laws repealed.

[Helertia]

Oh, right xD
I hardly think riots are a good thing. People get hurt for starters, and politically they have the potential to inspire a siege mentality.

Here's how it goes: Republicans jam through right-to-work law (lol). Unions go on strike to protest the law after it goes into effect. Businesses fire workers. The economy goes in the toilet. Unions get pissed, organized, start recruiting disaffected unemployed people and the working poor, and start protesting more violently. Police are sent in. Police go on strike as well. National Guard comes in. Federal government forced to act to avoid a "Bleeding Indiana"/"Bleeding Wisconsin" scenario. Right-to-work laws repealed.

Alternately, Republicans jam right-to-work law through, Unions strike, the state grinds to a halt and the people blame the strikers. Businesses then crack down on Unions with support of both the public and the Government.

[Wamitoria]

Here's how it goes: Republicans jam through right-to-work law (lol). Unions go on strike to protest the law after it goes into effect. Businesses fire workers. The economy goes in the toilet. Unions get pissed, organized, start recruiting disaffected unemployed people and the working poor, and start protesting more violently. Police are sent in. Police go on strike as well. National Guard comes in. Federal government forced to act to avoid a "Bleeding Indiana"/"Bleeding Wisconsin" scenario. Right-to-work laws repealed.

Alternately, Republicans jam right-to-work law through, Unions strike, the state grinds to a halt and the people blame the strikers. Businesses then crack down on Unions with support of both the public and the Government.

Which leads to

Businesses fire workers. The economy goes in the toilet. Unions get pissed, organized, start recruiting disaffected unemployed people and the working poor, and start protesting more violently. Police are sent in. Police go on strike as well. National Guard comes in. Federal government forced to act to avoid a "Bleeding Indiana"/"Bleeding Wisconsin" scenario. Right-to-work laws repealed.

Seriously, you can't just fire 1.5 million trained employees without there being severe economic repercussions.

[Helertia]

Alternately, Republicans jam right-to-work law through, Unions strike, the state grinds to a halt and the people blame the strikers. Businesses then crack down on Unions with support of both the public and the Government.

Which leads to

Businesses fire workers. The economy goes in the toilet. Unions get pissed, organized, start recruiting disaffected unemployed people and the working poor, and start protesting more violently. Police are sent in. Police go on strike as well. National Guard comes in. Federal government forced to act to avoid a "Bleeding Indiana"/"Bleeding Wisconsin" scenario. Right-to-work laws repealed.

Seriously, you can't just fire 1.5 million trained employees without there being severe economic repercussions.

Or possibly: Businesses fire Unionised employees with support of public and Government. Many union members leave unions in order to get a job. Unions collapse. Economy goes down toilet, but the right wing continues to blame unions and enough believe them. Alternately, right get booted out and the Democrats are too spineless to reverse the anti-union legislation.

Even if you do have National Guard scale riots, then I doubt the Feds will step in. The national Republicans are too powerful to allow it, especially if multiple states enact the same legislation.

[Wamitoria]

Businesses fire Unionised employees with support of public and Government. Many union members leave unions in order to get a job. Unions collapse. Economy goes down toilet, but the right wing continues to blame unions and enough believe them.

Not going to happen. These bills have very little public support. And without unions, the wages in the private and public sector will fall too much to be able to please even the most spineless Union member.

Alternately, right get booted out and the Democrats are too spineless to reverse the anti-union legislation.

Oh, didn't you hear? The Dems have spines now.

Even if you do have National Guard scale riots, then I doubt the Feds will step in.

Without feds, you'll effectively have a mini-civil war occurring.

[Helertia]

Businesses fire Unionised employees with support of public and Government. Many union members leave unions in order to get a job. Unions collapse. Economy goes down toilet, but the right wing continues to blame unions and enough believe them.

Not going to happen. These bills have very little public support. And without unions, the wages in the private and public sector will fall too much to be able to please even the most spineless Union member.

Alternately, right get booted out and the Democrats are too spineless to reverse the anti-union legislation.

Oh, didn't you hear? The Dems have spines now.

Even if you do have National Guard scale riots, then I doubt the Feds will step in.

Without feds, you'll effectively have a mini-civil war occurring.

No, I didn't hear, but I applaud the development.
As for public support for the bills, I don't know. I know the Washington Post poll on the Wisconsin walkouts was overwhelmingly disagreeing with the walkouts - it was around 190 to 5. I haven't seen any other polls on the situation.

I'm very worried that the Unions will get blamed for this. I mean, the right has got people believing they're responsible for all sorts of bad things and support for them is pretty tenuous at the best of times. This will rally people, but it's impossible to tell to which side.

[Wamitoria]

I know the Washington Post poll on the Wisconsin walkouts was overwhelmingly disagreeing with the walkouts - it was around 190 to 5. I haven't seen any other polls on the situation.

I believe you, but could I see that article?

I'm very worried that the Unions will get blamed for this. I mean, the right has got people believing they're responsible for all sorts of bad things and support for them is pretty tenuous at the best of times. This will rally people, but it's impossible to tell to which side.

It will rally them to the unions. Honestly, wages are going to fall so swiftly following this bill going into effect, that it'll literally knock the socks off the midwestern United States.

[Helertia]

I know the Washington Post poll on the Wisconsin walkouts was overwhelmingly disagreeing with the walkouts - it was around 190 to 5. I haven't seen any other polls on the situation.

I believe you, but could I see that article?

Annoyingly, I can't find it now, but I did dig up these:
A better, properly conducted poll from Clarus found that 64 percent of American people think state workers should not be able to join labor unions.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/114185/20110218/unions.htm

However, a Wisconsin poll by We Ask America found that 43.05% approved and 51.9% of Walkers actions and 55.99% said said the Dems should head back to vote while 36.38% said they shouldn't
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/116492008.html?page=1
EDIT:
Here it is. It was the times, not the post.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/polls/2011/feb/17/democrat-wisconsin-avoid-vote-anti-union-bill/results/

[Wamitoria]

A better, properly conducted poll from Clarus found that 64 percent of American people think state workers should not be able to join labor unions.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/114185/ ... unions.htm

What would you expect International Business Times to say?

However, a Wisconsin poll by We Ask America found that 43.05% approved and 51.9% of Walkers actions and 55.99% said said the Dems should head back to vote while 36.38% said they shouldn't
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/1164 ... tml?page=1

51.9% disapprove Walker's plans.
5.05% aren't sure. (They will be, by god, they will be.)

[Wamitoria]

EDIT:
Here it is. It was the times, not the post.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/polls/2011/feb/17/democrat-wisconsin-avoid-vote-anti-union-bill/results/

Believing that lawmakers should vote on the issue =/= support for the bill.

[Helertia]

A better, properly conducted poll from Clarus found that 64 percent of American people think state workers should not be able to join labor unions.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/114185/ ... unions.htm

What would you expect International Business Times to say?

It wasn't their poll, it was a national survey conducted by the Clarus Research Institute.

[Helertia]

EDIT:
Here it is. It was the times, not the post.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/polls/2011/feb/17/democrat-wisconsin-avoid-vote-anti-union-bill/results/

Believing that lawmakers should vote on the issue =/= support for the bill.

I did say it was a poll on the walkouts earlier.

[Wamitoria]

What would you expect International Business Times to say?

It wasn't their poll, it was a national survey conducted by the Clarus Research Institute.

As I can't see the survey, I can't exactly comment on whether it was incredibly biased or not. But, rest assured, it probably was.

[Wamitoria]

Believing that lawmakers should vote on the issue =/= support for the bill.

I did say it was a poll on the walkouts earlier.

Oh. My bad.

[Helertia]

It wasn't their poll, it was a national survey conducted by the Clarus Research Institute.

As I can't see the survey, I can't exactly comment on whether it was incredibly biased or not. But, rest assured, it probably was.

The IBT said it was non-partisan, and the group seems to be a fairly average polling and marketing group.
Ah, I found the details:

A representative, nationwide sample of 1,001 registered voters. Interviewing was conducted by live telephone calls. The margin of error is +/-3.1 percent. Poll questioned asked: "Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions... or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?"

[Wamitoria]

A representative, nationwide sample of 1,001 registered voters. Interviewing was conducted by live telephone calls. The margin of error is +/-3.1 percent. Poll questioned asked: "Do you think government employees should be represented by labor unions that bargain for higher pay, benefits and pensions... or do you think government employees should not be represented by labor unions?"

You see, that is an extremely loaded question. As it doesn't mention any of the protections that unions provide, of course they would be seen as bad.

[Helertia]

You see, that is an extremely loaded question. As it doesn't mention any of the protections that unions provide, of course they would be seen as bad.

I wouldn't say extremely loaded, but it does seem a biased question, and other polls have had figures of around 45% in favour and 40% against unions, although this a while ago, and with unions in general, not public sector unions.

[Wamitoria]

You see, that is an extremely loaded question. As it doesn't mention any of the protections that unions provide, of course they would be seen as bad.

I wouldn't say extremely loaded, but it does seem a biased question, and other polls have had figures of around 45% in favour and 40% against unions, although this a while ago.

I suspect it's more like 40% in favor, 30% against, 30% no opinion.

[Helertia]

I wouldn't say extremely loaded, but it does seem a biased question, and other polls have had figures of around 45% in favour and 40% against unions, although this a while ago.

I suspect it's more like 40% in favor, 30% against, 30% no opinion.

No, it's very close - From HuffPo:

The first and far more comprehensive survey was conducted February 2-7 by the Pew Research Center among 1,385 adults. They found favorability ratings of unions at "their lowest level in a quarter century" yet still net positive -- 45 percent rate unions favorably and 41 percent rate them unfavorably.

The Pew Research survey probed more specifically for feelings about both government and private sector unions. They found a net positive rating (48 percent favorable, 40 percent unfavorable) for "unions that represent workers for state and local governments." The ratings of unions that represent "people who work for private companies" was very similar (48 percent favorable, 37 percent unfavorable).

Here's a link to quite a detailed report of union favourability.
http://people-press.org/report/705/