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Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

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The Cat-Tribe
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Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:37 pm

Some may recall my prior thread about the case of Troy Anthony Davis in which I bemoaned SCOTUS's refusal to hear a case in which the defendant may be executed for a crime he did not commit. THAT HAS CHANGED. Justice John Paul Stevens said that the risk of putting an innocent man to death "provides adequate justification" for an evidentiary hearing.

As Wiki reports:

On August 17, 2009, the Supreme Court, over two Justices’ dissents, ordered a federal district court in Georgia to consider and rule on Davis' claim of innocence. The Court order directed the District Court to “receive testimony and make findings of fact as to whether evidence that could not have been obtained at the time of trial clearly establishes [Davis'] innocence.” [10] (The case was "In re Davis", 08-1443.) This was a highly unusual action, because original writs of habeas corpus filed in the Supreme Court are very rarely granted; the Court had not granted one of these in "nearly 50 years."

The vote of the Supreme Court was not published, but some justices released opinions: Justice Scalia wrote a dissenting opinion joined by Justice Thomas, and Justice Stevens wrote a separate opinion in response, joined by Justices Ginsburg and Breyer. Justice Sotomayor did not take part in the consideration of the case.[10]

The hearing will now proceed in the Federal District Court.


Hereis the opinion of Justices Stevens, Ginsburg, and Breyer. Here is the opinion of Justices Scalia and Thomas. I am reading these now.

There are two reasons why I am elated over this:

1. A serious injustice may be undone. Even if Davis is ultimately executed, at least he will have received a hearing on his innocence.

2. This strikes a serious blow against the current of cases that seemed to hold that innocence of the defendant was not relevant on appeal.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Muravyets
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Muravyets » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:39 pm

A ray of sanity. :clap: This is the kind of little thing that keeps me from losing all hope.
Kick back at Cafe Muravyets
And check out my other RP, too. (Don't take others' word for it -- see for yourself. ;) )
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However, I am still not the topic of this thread.

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Milks Empire
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Milks Empire » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:44 pm

The evidence shows he didn't do it and they still want to kill him? :palm:

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Thethunderdome
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Thethunderdome » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:45 pm

wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:45 pm

Not that this should surprise anyone, but Justices Scalia and Thomas are bloodthirsty authoritarian bastards.

1. They primarily argue that a claim of actual innocence is not constitutionally cognizable.

2. They further argue that habeas relief should not be available even where a state execution would violate clearly established federal law.
Last edited by The Cat-Tribe on Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:46 pm

Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?


Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Soheran
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Soheran » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:48 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:1. They primarily argue that a claim of actual innocence is not constitutionally cognizable.


That it does not fit under due process, as long as the proper procedures were met?

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Soheran
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Soheran » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:50 pm

Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?


Thomas is even more of a shithead, e.g. his dissent arguing that a school was perfectly justified in strip-searching a thirteen-year-old girl on the word of another student that she had drugs. Even Scalia didn't join him on that one.

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Thethunderdome
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Thethunderdome » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:57 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?


Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.



It seems to me this case didn't have much to do with the Constitution, just whether here or not he should be killed or given a re-trial...then again I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.
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NERVUN
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby NERVUN » Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:59 pm

It's a start.
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Milks Empire
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Milks Empire » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:01 pm

Thethunderdome wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?

Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.

It seems to me this case didn't have much to do with the Constitution, just whether here or not he should be killed or given a re-trial...then again I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.

It sounds as though new evidence was found that showed he didn't do it, and he was refused the right to appeal his conviction - a clear denial of due process. It absolutely is about the Constitution.
I'm not a lawyer either.

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Neo Art
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Neo Art » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:01 pm

Soheran wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:1. They primarily argue that a claim of actual innocence is not constitutionally cognizable.


That it does not fit under due process, as long as the proper procedures were met?


essentially. The argument is, basically, that once lawfully convicted merely claiming innocence is an insufficent reason to have a re-trial.
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:03 pm

FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.

Also, from the dissent by 3 of the 7 Georgia Supreme Court Justices in Davis's case:

In this case, nearly every witness who identified Davis as the shooter at trial has now disclaimed his or her ability to do so reliably. Three persons have stated that Sylvester Coles confessed to being the shooter. Two witnesses have stated that Sylvester Coles, contrary to his trial testimony, possessed a handgun immediately after the murder. Another witness has provided a description of the crimes that might indicate that Sylvester Coles was the shooter. Perhaps these witnesses’ testimony would prove incredible if a hearing were held. Perhaps the majority is correct that the alleged eyewitness’s testimony will actually show Davis’s guilt rather than his innocence. But the collective effect of all of Davis’s new testimony, if it were to be found credible by the trial court in a hearing, would show the probability that a new jury would find reasonable doubt of Davis’s guilt or at least sufficient residual doubt to decline to impose the death penalty. Accordingly, I would order the trial court to conduct a hearing, to weigh the credibility of Davis’s new evidence, and to exercise its discretion in determining if the new evidence would create the probability of a different outcome if a new trial were held.
Last edited by The Cat-Tribe on Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Thethunderdome
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Thethunderdome » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:03 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.

It seems to me this case didn't have much to do with the Constitution, just whether here or not he should be killed or given a re-trial...then again I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.

It sounds as though new evidence was found that showed he didn't do it, and he was refused the right to appeal his conviction - a clear denial of due process. It absolutely is about the Constitution.
I'm not a lawyer either.


Ok, that makes sense
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:05 pm

Thethunderdome wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?


Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.



It seems to me this case didn't have much to do with the Constitution, just whether here or not he should be killed or given a re-trial...then again I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.


To quote Justice Stevens's opinion:

It “would be an atrocious violation of our Constitution and the principles upon which it is based” to execute an innocent person. 565 F. 3d, at 830 (Barkett, J., dissenting); cf. Teague v. Lane, 489 U. S. 288, 311–313 (1989) (plurality opinion).

JUSTICE SCALIA would pretermit all of these unresolved legal questions on the theory that we must treat even the most robust showing of actual innocence identically on habeas review to an accusation of minor procedural error.Without briefing or argument, he concludes that Congresschose to foreclose relief and that the Constitution permitsthis. But imagine a petitioner in Davis’s situation whopossesses new evidence conclusively and definitively prov-ing, beyond any scintilla of doubt, that he is an innocent man. The dissent’s reasoning would allow such a peti-tioner to be put to death nonetheless. The Court correctly refuses to endorse such reasoning.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Phenia
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Phenia » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:09 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.


Given all that, is it really something to be cheerful about given that he might be executed anyway? I mean if he is it sounds like a miscarriage of justice, like he might as well not have gotten a hearing at all.

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Thethunderdome
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Thethunderdome » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:11 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:Um. Justice Thomas rarely disagrees with Justice Scalia and when he does it is inevitably on the side of government power, rather than liberty or equal protection.



It seems to me this case didn't have much to do with the Constitution, just whether here or not he should be killed or given a re-trial...then again I'm not a lawyer so what do I know.


To quote Justice Stevens's opinion:

It “would be an atrocious violation of our Constitution and the principles upon which it is based” to execute an innocent person. 565 F. 3d, at 830 (Barkett, J., dissenting); cf. Teague v. Lane, 489 U. S. 288, 311–313 (1989) (plurality opinion).

JUSTICE SCALIA would pretermit all of these unresolved legal questions on the theory that we must treat even the most robust showing of actual innocence identically on habeas review to an accusation of minor procedural error.Without briefing or argument, he concludes that Congresschose to foreclose relief and that the Constitution permitsthis. But imagine a petitioner in Davis’s situation whopossesses new evidence conclusively and definitively prov-ing, beyond any scintilla of doubt, that he is an innocent man. The dissent’s reasoning would allow such a peti-tioner to be put to death nonetheless. The Court correctly refuses to endorse such reasoning.


Ok, Thomas is an idiot too then
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The Cat-Tribe
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby The Cat-Tribe » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:14 pm

Phenia wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.


Given all that, is it really something to be cheerful about given that he might be executed anyway? I mean if he is it sounds like a miscarriage of justice, like he might as well not have gotten a hearing at all.


If he is given a full and fair federal hearing in which the above is considered and he is still determined to be guilty, then much of my objection to his execution goes away.

I don't know if he is actually innocent. I do know he should be able to assert a cognizable claim that he is actually innocent.
I quit (again).
The Altani Confederacy wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:With that, I am done with these shenanigans. Do as thou wilt.

Can't miss you until you're gone, Ambassador. Seriously, your delegation is like one of those stores that has a "Going Out Of Business" sale for twenty years. Stay or go, already.*snip*
"Don't give me no shit because . . . I've been Tired . . ." ~ Pixies
With that, "he put his boots on, he took a face from the Ancient Gallery, and he walked on down the Hall . . ."

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Redwulf
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Redwulf » Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:17 pm

Soheran wrote:
Thethunderdome wrote:wtf is Thomas doing on the wrong side of this? Scalia is obviously a shithead, but Thomas?


Thomas is even more of a shithead, e.g. his dissent arguing that a school was perfectly justified in strip-searching a thirteen-year-old girl on the word of another student that she had drugs. Even Scalia didn't join him on that one.


The drug in question? Ibuprofen.
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Phenia
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Phenia » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:03 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Phenia wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.


Given all that, is it really something to be cheerful about given that he might be executed anyway? I mean if he is it sounds like a miscarriage of justice, like he might as well not have gotten a hearing at all.


If he is given a full and fair federal hearing in which the above is considered and he is still determined to be guilty, then much of my objection to his execution goes away.

I don't know if he is actually innocent. I do know he should be able to assert a cognizable claim that he is actually innocent.


Fair enough. Different question then - do you, personally, based on what you know so far, believe he is innocent?

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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:14 pm

The Cat-Tribe wrote:FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.


How the hell was he convicted?
Is he black?
A little homework for you!

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Chrobalta
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Chrobalta » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:17 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:
The Cat-Tribe wrote:FWIW, I don't remember where I found this originally, but I posted this summary of the factual claim re Troy Davis's innocence in the other thread:

  • There was no physical evidence against Troy Davis.

  • The weapon used was never found.

  • The case against him consisted entirely of witness testimony.

  • 7 of the 9 non-police witnesses have recanted or contradicted their testimony.

  • Many of these witnesses have stated that they were pressured or coerced by the police.

  • One of the two witnesses who has not recanted is the principle alternative suspect.

  • Nine individuals have signed affadavits implicating this suspect as the actual shooter.

  • Troy Davis has never had a hearing in federal court on the reliability of the witness testimony used against him.


How the hell was he convicted?
Is he black?


Yes.
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New Kereptica
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby New Kereptica » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:17 pm

UnhealthyTruthseeker wrote:How the hell was he convicted?
Is he black?


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UnhealthyTruthseeker
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby UnhealthyTruthseeker » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:28 pm

Chrobalta wrote:Yes.


Unfortunately, that explains everything.
A little homework for you!

What part of L(f(t)) = Int(exp(-s*t)*f(t),t,0,inf) don't you understand?

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Samatolian City-States
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Re: Don't murder me. I beg of you don't murder me. Pt. II

Postby Samatolian City-States » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:00 pm

We need new Supreme Court Justices. Anyone up for a "vote of no confidence"?
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Corruption is evil. Therefore, power is evil. Absolute power is absolute evil.

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