[PASSED] On Abortion

[Urgench]

Hiriaurtung Arororugul chuckles, then quickly scribbles a note which he sends to the Urgenchi delegation by way of one of his aides

Mongkha, Khan of Kashgar, it is good to see you once again. I trust that you are well, and it appears that you are because you are still able to concoct these fanciful tales of the People of Aundotutunagir swimming across the Kara Strait to go and live amongst the Samoyeds.

Mongkha snears good humouredly at the contents of Hiriaurtung's note and dashes off one of his own for Tarmashirin of Herat to fearfully convey to the Aundotutunagirian General


It has gratified my jaded heart to see you returned Noble General, felicitations.

"Madame Xou" must be an excellent swimmer then! She spoke very warmly of her lover at the Khan of Tabagatai's reception for the Imperial Khatun of Bayanchor. Indeed we were spell bound by her vivid and highly emotional paean to his tender fondness for her. You will doubtless be very gladdened to hear.


Yours as ever in friendship,

[Hiriaurtung Arororugul]

Hiriaurtung Arororugul chuckles, then quickly scribbles a note which he sends to the Urgenchi delegation by way of one of his aides

Mongkha, Khan of Kashgar, it is good to see you once again. I trust that you are well, and it appears that you are because you are still able to concoct these fanciful tales of the People of Aundotutunagir swimming across the Kara Strait to go and live amongst the Samoyeds.

Mongkha snears good humouredly at the contents of Hiriaurtung's note and dashes off one of his own for Tarmashirin of Herat to fearfully convey to the Aundotutunagirian General


It has gratified my jaded heart to see you returned Noble General, felicitations.

"Madame Xou" must be an excellent swimmer then! She spoke very warmly of her lover at the Khan of Tabagatai's reception for the Imperial Khatun of Bayanchor. Indeed we were spell bound by her vivid and highly emotional paean to his tender fondness for her. You will doubtless be very gladdened to hear.


Yours as ever in friendship,

Hiriaurtung Arororugul is seated on a pillow, smoking hashish from a large hookah pipe. He sees Tarmashirin approach and rises to greet him.

Ah, Tarmashirin of Herat, it is good to see you. You must try some of this hashish. It is the finest Turfani and it is a pleasure to smoke.

Before the hapless Herati can escape, General Arororugul has dragged him down onto a nearby pillow and shoved one of the hookah's hoses into his mouth.

Well now, it is always good to correspond with Mongkha.

The General reads Mongkha's note, then pens a reply.

Ah yes, the lovely and talkative Madame Xou. I believe I have made her acquaintance and in fact I believe she summered at my villa last year. I do hope you found her conversations invigorating. Did she happen to have in her possession a bay gelding, about three years old, a fine horse? Mine went missing around the time of her departure and I fear it may have mistakenly ended up in her livery by accident along with some gold bullion and ambergris from my household.

May your herd be peaceful and milk be in abundance,
Arororugul

General Arororugul turns to Tarmashirin, who now has a more peaceful expression than the look of dread he wore when he first appeared. He hands him the note.

Smoke all you want Tarmashirin, it appears to be beneficial for your nerves, then return to Mongkha with my reply.

[Urgench]

Hiriaurtung Arororugul is seated on a pillow, smoking hashish from a large hookah pipe. He sees Tarmashirin approach and rises to greet him.

Ah, Tarmashirin of Herat, it is good to see you. You must try some of this hashish. It is the finest Turfani and it is a pleasure to smoke.

Before the hapless Herati can escape, General Arororugul has dragged him down onto a nearby pillow and shoved one of the hookah's hoses into his mouth.

Well now, it is always good to correspond with Mongkha. ;;[i

]The General readMongkha's's note, then pens a reply.[/i]

Ah yes, the lovely and talkative MadamXou. I I believe I have made her acquaintance and in fact I believe she summered at my villa last year. I do hope you found her conversations invigorating. Did she happen to have in her possession a bay gelding, about three years old, a fine horse? Mine went missing around the time of her departure and I fear it may have mistakenly ended up in her livery by accident along with some gold bullion and ambergris from my household.

May your herd be peaceful and milk be in abundance,Arororugul
Arororugul

Arororugul

e all yoTarmashirinashirin, it appears to be beneficial for your nerves, then return to Mongkha with my reply.

A disrespectfully relaxed Tarmashirin eventually sauntered back to his master reeking of cannabis resin. Mongkha scowled at him and cursed his Kin as Tartar woodsmen. The elderly Khan read General Arororugul's note with relish. Manhandling a supine Tarmashirin back into service as courier once again he sent his reply


Indeed Noble General, Madame Xou's conversation was very... vivifying. She cut something of a dash in Tabriz and had many petty courtiers visit her in the Salon provided for her by the hereditary governor of Issyk Kul. I believe her visit did coincide with a sudden glut of Ambergris in the Perfumer's Quarter. I bought a Gelding from the woman for 20,000 imperial darangs it was much as you describe, somewhat unmanageable in temperament, and all the better for it, a pretty beast. I do not think she knew its worth.

I believe some deleriant halucinogens of Yorta manufacture were sent to Golthaindroror recently via diplomatic bag, did they reach their intended recipient? They are very potent apparently.

I take it your herds thrive amid the snows. Mare's milk was drunk in your honour when the late Empress's funeral cortege stopped in Kashgar and then again at Yarkand by his Divine Majesty's command.


May the sky be blue above you and the thunder never beset you and may your enemies flee before you,
Mongkha

[Hiriaurtung Arororugul]

A disrespectfully relaxed Tarmashirin eventually sauntered back to his master reeking of cannabis resin. Mongkha scowled at him and cursed his Kin as Tartar woodsmen. The elderly Khan read General Arororugul's note with relish. Manhandling a supine Tarmashirin back into service as courier once again he sent his reply


Indeed Noble General, Madame Xou's conversation was very... vivifying. She cut something of a dash in Tabriz and had many petty courtiers visit her in the Salon provided for her by the hereditary governor of Issyk Kul. I believe her visit did coincide with a sudden glut of Ambergris in the Perfumer's Quarter. I bought a Gelding from the woman for 20,000 imperial darangs it was much as you describe, somewhat unmanageable in temperament, and all the better for it, a pretty beast. I do not think she knew its worth.

I believe some deleriant halucinogens of Yorta manufacture were sent to Golthaindroror recently via diplomatic bag, did they reach their intended recipient? They are very potent apparently.

I take it your herds thrive amid the snows. Mare's milk was drunk in your honour when the late Empress's funeral cortege stopped in Kashgar and then again at Yarkand by his Divine Majesty's command.


May the sky be blue above you and the thunder never beset you and may your enemies flee before you,
Mongkha

Tarmashirin reappears, bearing another note. He glances nervously, or perhaps longingly, at the hookah pipe.

Yes Tarmashirin, help yourself.

General Arororugul reads the Khan of Kashgar's note, detailing the theft of his horse, his gold and who knows what other possessions. He composes a reply.

I am so happy to hear that you are pleased with the gelding. I shall see that your 20,000 imperial darangs are returned and you may consider it a gift from my stables.

I did receive the Yortani hallucinogens, they were much enjoyed by myself and my guests. My compliments to those who concocted them.

I was of course saddened to hear of the passing of the Empress. I and a few of my kinsmen mourned in private since, as you know, such outpourings of grief are frowned upon by the current regime in Golthaindroror.

yours,

He gives the note to the now glassy-eyed Tarmashirin.

Tarmashirin, when you have time you may return my reply to your master.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Either way, honoured ambassador from Hiriaurtung Arororugul, I think every effort should be made to see this through too, which also guarantees the right of member states to decide abortion for other cases. It's just that Ms. Harper could not miss the opportunity to secure the rights for cases which are worthy of firm legalisation for many reasons such as the reduction of emotional distress and the reduction of illegal abortions which put women's lives at risk. Of course, the Reduction of Abortion resolution was one of the limitations we had to take into account to avoid duplication.

[Urgench]

We are extremely gratified to see that this proposal is now in queue.


Yours,

[Hiriaurtung Arororugul]

Either way, honoured ambassador from Hiriaurtung Arororugul, I think every effort should be made to see this through too, which also guarantees the right of member states to decide abortion for other cases.

Yes I agree. Hopefully this will pass and put this tiresome abortion discussion to rest, for a while at least.

[Keronians]

Please, ambassador, you have the floor. Enlighten me, for I am obviously an idiot, as to how this could be done with national law if the woman cannot be persuaded to change her mind under international law?

Ambassador, your feminist (and I apologise if this sounds insulting in any way) point of view is beginning to get on my nerves. I insist on a neutral point of view. 5 months are enough to make a decision. I admit I do not have any such qualifications in psychology, but I could have a report produced and sent to me in a matter of hours from specialists. I do not really feel I need to do this as 5 months are enough to make a decision. This government has held this belief since its founding, and clauses on abortion can be found in our Constitution.

In short, your repetitive assertions on women's rights and extremist views are complicating the situation more than necessary.

*sigh*

1. As to bizarre male rape scenarios, the Keronians's Ambassador has quite a vivid imagination and appears to believe that things "ha[ve] happened" that certainly would never occur in The Cat-Tribes's nation and I can't imagine why Keronians would allow them to happen there.

2. I fail to understand why a nation fully embracing and implementing the Reduction of Abortion Act would have the "problem" of a significant number of abortions in the first place.

3. It is all very nice that the Keronian's Ambassador is (with the help of specialist researchers) able to make important decisions within a matter of hours. How that is possibly relevant to how a preteen who becomes pregnant after being raped by her father might behave or should behave with regards to knowledge about pregnancy and abortion options is beyond me. Please "enlighten me," but if you do -- please reference some authoritative information about the psychology, trauma, and body knowledge of preteens, rape victims, and incest survivors before you insist they should be punished for being impregnated against their will by being forced to carry to term with their body and give birth against their will -- causing possible further permanent physical and mental damage to them.

4. Not in response to any of the above but other things you have posted, you appear to have several assumptions about "viability," "personhood," "rights," and when these thing occur in WA member populations. Even referring strictly to humans, you have made statements of alleged fact that are simply false about the degree of development of a human fetus at different ages of gestation.

Finally, you and Nulono have come in at the end of a process of negotiating a carefully drafted, limited piece of legislation and raised numerous, mostly absurd objections. Those with even the slightest merit tend to be of trivial importance. If you simply are taking the position that you won't agree with anything that legalizes abortion in any form, just be honest and say so. Don't waste everyone's time.

1) Is the ambassador suggesting that a male has not been raped? Well certainly that would be an ideal World, but reality is much harsher. It is not only in Keronians that this happens, but in the entire World. For you to suggest that this has not happened, and that it doesn't happen, in your nation is, frankly, quite amusing.

2) "simply false". Why does the ambassador think so?

"Don't waste everyone's time". How so? Please check yourself, ambassador, I have full right, as representative of the Keronian Empire, to express my, and my nation's, opinion and concerns. Trivial? Hardly. We are not against abortion, but we have differing views to the ones others may have.

Abortion in our nation is effectively illegal. However, exceptions are made for health, mental health, foetal defects, rape, incest and maternal life/health. Therefore, your assumptions are baseless. However, we do not feel that rape or incest is a good excuse after the limit of viability.

In short, I do not know how the ambassador from Nulono feels, but we are certainly not completely against this resolution. As I have asserted previously, the concerns we have is with the fact that this is being permitted for the whole of the pregnancy.

If I was against the legalisation of abortion in any way, I wouldn't have made the exceptions I made in the competing resolution. You can be assured that if this resolution passes we shall be drafting a repeal (since amendments are illegal) to effectively nullify it.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

*sigh*

1. As to bizarre male rape scenarios, the Keronians's Ambassador has quite a vivid imagination and appears to believe that things "ha[ve] happened" that certainly would never occur in The Cat-Tribes's nation and I can't imagine why Keronians would allow them to happen there.

2. I fail to understand why a nation fully embracing and implementing the Reduction of Abortion Act would have the "problem" of a significant number of abortions in the first place.

3. It is all very nice that the Keronian's Ambassador is (with the help of specialist researchers) able to make important decisions within a matter of hours. How that is possibly relevant to how a preteen who becomes pregnant after being raped by her father might behave or should behave with regards to knowledge about pregnancy and abortion options is beyond me. Please "enlighten me," but if you do -- please reference some authoritative information about the psychology, trauma, and body knowledge of preteens, rape victims, and incest survivors before you insist they should be punished for being impregnated against their will by being forced to carry to term with their body and give birth against their will -- causing possible further permanent physical and mental damage to them.

4. Not in response to any of the above but other things you have posted, you appear to have several assumptions about "viability," "personhood," "rights," and when these thing occur in WA member populations. Even referring strictly to humans, you have made statements of alleged fact that are simply false about the degree of development of a human fetus at different ages of gestation.

Finally, you and Nulono have come in at the end of a process of negotiating a carefully drafted, limited piece of legislation and raised numerous, mostly absurd objections. Those with even the slightest merit tend to be of trivial importance. If you simply are taking the position that you won't agree with anything that legalizes abortion in any form, just be honest and say so. Don't waste everyone's time.

1) Is the ambassador suggesting that a male has not been raped? Well certainly that would be an ideal World, but reality is much harsher. It is not only in Keronians that this happens, but in the entire World. For you to suggest that this has not happened, and that it doesn't happen, in your nation is, frankly, quite amusing.

2) "simply false". Why does the ambassador think so?

"Don't waste everyone's time". How so? Please check yourself, ambassador, I have full right, as representative of the Keronian Empire, to express my, and my nation's, opinion and concerns. Trivial? Hardly. We are not against abortion, but we have differing views to the ones others may have.

Abortion in our nation is effectively illegal. However, exceptions are made for health, mental health, foetal defects, rape, incest and maternal life/health. Therefore, your assumptions are baseless. However, we do not feel that rape or incest is a good excuse after the limit of viability.

In short, I do not know how the ambassador from Nulono feels, but we are certainly not completely against this resolution. As I have asserted previously, the concerns we have is with the fact that this is being permitted for the whole of the pregnancy.

If I was against the legalisation of abortion in any way, I wouldn't have made the exceptions I made in the competing resolution. You can be assured that if this resolution passes we shall be drafting a repeal (since amendments are illegal) to effectively nullify it.

Honoured ambassador this resolution lets you to determine whether to allow for abortion in more general circumstances.

[Urgench]

1) Is the ambassador suggesting that a male has not been raped? Well certainly that would be an ideal World, but reality is much harsher. It is not only in Keronians that this happens, but in the entire World. For you to suggest that this has not happened, and that it doesn't happen, in your nation is, frankly, quite amusing.

No. That is not what the respected Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is suggesting, don't be so absurd.

2) "simply false". Why does the ambassador think so?

Because it is, the honoured Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is not obliged to do your Excellency's research for you.

Trivial? Hardly. We are not against abortion, but we have differing views to the ones others may have.

Your Excellency makes a liar of yourself as per-

Abortion in our nation is effectively illegal.

However, we do not feel that rape or incest is a good excuse after the limit of viability.

Your Excellency betrays the misogyny of your nation's position even with the terms your Excellency frames it in. To suggest that someone seeking the abortion of a foetus conceived by rape is using this dreadful event as an "excuse" to obtain an abortion is an insult to the terrible suffering of billions of people. Do not lecture anyone on issues relating to the raped of any sex when your Excellency cannot even show their plight the requisite respect and sensitivity.

You can be assured that if this resolution passes we shall be drafting a repeal (since amendments are illegal) to effectively nullify it.

Indeed because your Excellency is delighted by the prospect of forcing billions of people to continue to live in misery and despair.


Yours,

[Keronians]

1) Is the ambassador suggesting that a male has not been raped? Well certainly that would be an ideal World, but reality is much harsher. It is not only in Keronians that this happens, but in the entire World. For you to suggest that this has not happened, and that it doesn't happen, in your nation is, frankly, quite amusing.

No. That is not what the respected Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is suggesting, don't be so absurd.

2) "simply false". Why does the ambassador think so?

Because it is, the honoured Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is not obliged to do your Excellency's research for you.

Trivial? Hardly. We are not against abortion, but we have differing views to the ones others may have.

Your Excellency makes a liar of yourself as per-

Abortion in our nation is effectively illegal.

However, we do not feel that rape or incest is a good excuse after the limit of viability.

Your Excellency betrays the misogyny of your nation's position even with the terms your Excellency frames it in. To suggest that someone seeking the abortion of a foetus conceived by rape is using this dreadful event as an "excuse" is to obtain an abortion is an insult to the terrible suffering of billions of people. Do not lecture anyone on issues relating to the raped of any sex when your Excellency cannot even show their plight the requisite respect and sensitivity.

You can be assured that if this resolution passes we shall be drafting a repeal (since amendments are illegal) to effectively nullify it.

Indeed because your Excellency is delighted by the prospect of forcing billions of people to continue to live in misery and despair.


Yours,

How dare you call me a liar? Did you not find it, ambassador, necessary to continue reading before saying such an absurd thing? Whilst I appreciate your sarcasm and irony on the matter, this nation happens to take this resolution seriously, particularly because it is not far from what we consider acceptable and just.

Abortion is illegal in our nation. The effects this resolution will produce on our nation shall be minimal by your standards, ambassador, because as I have continually said we make exceptions for; health reasons, mental health reasons, maternal life/health reasons, foetal defects, rape and incest. As you can see, all of these are included in the resolution. However, this resolution would additionally mean that this nation would have to persuade 87.2% of its population that such murder is justifiable (due to the resolution guaranteeing access to abortion for the entire pregnancy) for the simple reason that one person is depressed. We would have to amend the Constitution as well, and for something we don't even agree with.

And, ambassador, I would like to inquire how you can be so sure that the ambassador of Cat-Tribe feels the same way you do, and agrees with the extremely strong argument of "Because it is"?
Therefore, I am not lying, and am certainly not making any absurd statements.

[Urgench]

However, this resolution would additionally mean that this nation would have to persuade 87.2% of its population that murder is justifiable (due to the resolution guaranteeing access to abortion for the entire pregnancy) for the simple reason that one person is depressed.

Your Excellency is a liar, and a hypocrite and your Excellency's characterisation quoted above is shameful and a disgrace.


Yours,

[Jedi Utopians]

To the representative from the Keronians,

I've already lamented the fact that this resolution doesn't cover male reproductive rights, and Ms. Harper makes clear that such legislation can be enacted unilaterally in tandem with this resolution. You are free to propose additional legislation specifically addressing that for the body as a whole to consider.

Ms. Harper,

Thank you for including the modified Clause 6 as we requested. We see no centrist objections to this legislation, and given the work we've put into this, feel that, of the many abortion resolution proposals afoot, this has the most reasoned arguments.

[Cardoness]

No. That is not what the respected Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is suggesting, don't be so absurd.



Because it is, the honoured Ambassador for The Cat Tribe is not obliged to do your Excellency's research for you.



Your Excellency makes a liar of yourself as per-






Your Excellency betrays the misogyny of your nation's position even with the terms your Excellency frames it in. To suggest that someone seeking the abortion of a foetus conceived by rape is using this dreadful event as an "excuse" is to obtain an abortion is an insult to the terrible suffering of billions of people. Do not lecture anyone on issues relating to the raped of any sex when your Excellency cannot even show their plight the requisite respect and sensitivity.






Indeed because your Excellency is delighted by the prospect of forcing billions of people to continue to live in misery and despair.


Yours,

How dare you call me a liar? Did you not find it, ambassador, necessary to continue reading before saying such an absurd thing? Whilst I appreciate your sarcasm and irony on the matter, this nation happens to take this resolution seriously, particularly because it is not far from what we consider acceptable and just.

Abortion is illegal in our nation. The effects this resolution will produce on our nation shall be minimal by your standards, ambassador, because as I have continually said we make exceptions for; health reasons, mental health reasons, maternal life/health reasons, foetal defects, rape and incest. As you can see, all of these are included in the resolution. However, this resolution would additionally mean that this nation would have to persuade 87.2% of its population that such murder is justifiable (due to the resolution guaranteeing access to abortion for the entire pregnancy) for the simple reason that one person is depressed. We would have to amend the Constitution as well, and for something we don't even agree with.

And, ambassador, I would like to inquire how you can be so sure that the ambassador of Cat-Tribe feels the same way you do, and agrees with the extremely strong argument of "Because it is"?
Therefore, I am not lying, and am certainly not making any absurd statements.

If, your nation already makes an exception for everything in clause 1 of this resolution, how is it that any of your laws need to be changed? Why do you need 87.2% of your country to change their minds? And it doesn't matter what your constitution or laws say because by joining the WA your nation agrees to subject itself to its laws, making the resolutions passed here the supreme law of all member states and all national or local laws to the contrary are invalid.

[Keronians]

However, this resolution would additionally mean that this nation would have to persuade 87.2% of its population that murder is justifiable (due to the resolution guaranteeing access to abortion for the entire pregnancy) for the simple reason that one person is depressed.

Your Excellency is a liar, and a hypocrite and your Excellency's characterisation quoted above is shameful and a disgrace.


Yours,

*Groans at having to stand up yet again to address the ambassador of Urgench* Yes, thank you for your opinion, ambassador, but as I am continually being forced to point out to you, not everybody sees things your way. Our nation certainly sees late-term abortion as immoral and a violation of human rights, unless it is explicitly permitted by the law (all clauses mentioned minus rape and incest). Our founding fathers saw it so as well.

*Rolls his eyes, before quickly smiling* Does the hounourable ambassador of Urgench have anything further to add about my person?

I thank you, ambassador, for clarifying the position on male reproductive rights. I shall happily tick that off my list of concerns. I may have missed it with all of the comments made by the honourable ambassador of Urgench.

[Keronians]

How dare you call me a liar? Did you not find it, ambassador, necessary to continue reading before saying such an absurd thing? Whilst I appreciate your sarcasm and irony on the matter, this nation happens to take this resolution seriously, particularly because it is not far from what we consider acceptable and just.

Abortion is illegal in our nation. The effects this resolution will produce on our nation shall be minimal by your standards, ambassador, because as I have continually said we make exceptions for; health reasons, mental health reasons, maternal life/health reasons, foetal defects, rape and incest. As you can see, all of these are included in the resolution. However, this resolution would additionally mean that this nation would have to persuade 87.2% of its population that such murder is justifiable (due to the resolution guaranteeing access to abortion for the entire pregnancy) for the simple reason that one person is depressed. We would have to amend the Constitution as well, and for something we don't even agree with.

And, ambassador, I would like to inquire how you can be so sure that the ambassador of Cat-Tribe feels the same way you do, and agrees with the extremely strong argument of "Because it is"?
Therefore, I am not lying, and am certainly not making any absurd statements.

If, your nation already makes an exception for everything in clause 1 of this resolution, how is it that any of your laws need to be changed? Why do you need 87.2% of your country to change their minds? And it doesn't matter what your constitution or laws say because by joining the WA your nation agrees to subject itself to its laws, making the resolutions passed here the supreme law of all member states and all national or local laws to the contrary are invalid.

Because we do not count rape and incest as an excuse for abortion after the limit of viability, whilst the resolution does. And indeed I realise this, ambassador, this is why I am being so stubborn on the matter, for I do not wish to have to draft a repeal to this resolution, for I, and the nation, agree to most of its terms.

[Jedi Utopians]

OOC: If this legislation passes, it should say in everyone's country at a glance: "Pregnant women are in constant fear of their lives,...."

But maybe that's too much of an "in-joke."

[Keronians]

OOC: If this legislation passes, it should say in everyone's country at a glance: "Pregnant women are in constant fear of their lives,...."

But maybe that's too much of an "in-joke."

OOC: You mean the repeal I mentioned? Yeah, I don't want to write that up because I do agree with most of the terms in the friggin resolution. A repeal would nullify everything, whilst all I want to do is amend. But, *sigh* amendments are illegal. And so help me I do not wish to put an 8th proposal into the GA. That's simply too much.

[Urgench]

*Groans at having to stand up yet again to address the ambassador of Urgench* Yes, thank you for your opinion, ambassador, but as I am continually being forced to point out to you, not everybody sees things your way. Our nation certainly sees late-term abortion as immoral and a violation of human rights, unless it is explicitly permitted by the law (all clauses mentioned minus rape and incest). Our founding fathers saw it so as well.

*Rolls his eyes, before quickly smiling* Does the hounourable ambassador of Urgench have anything further to add about my person?

I thank you, ambassador, for clarifying the position on male reproductive rights. I shall happily tick that off my list of concerns. I may have missed it with all of the comments made by the honourable ambassador of Urgench.

We are not obliged to address your Excellency's misogynistic nonsense, it is sufficient to point out the hatred of women and the appalling contempt inherent in the views your Excellency has expressed.

Indeed to treat your Excellency's views with the seriousness you demand would be to accept that they have any validity whatsoever. They do not, and therefore we see no productive use in addressing them.


Yours,

[Cardoness]

If, your nation already makes an exception for everything in clause 1 of this resolution, how is it that any of your laws need to be changed? Why do you need 87.2% of your country to change their minds? And it doesn't matter what your constitution or laws say because by joining the WA your nation agrees to subject itself to its laws, making the resolutions passed here the supreme law of all member states and all national or local laws to the contrary are invalid.

Because we do not count rape and incest as an excuse for abortion after the limit of viability, whilst the resolution does. And indeed I realise this, ambassador, this is why I am being so stubborn on the matter, for I do not wish to have to draft a repeal to this resolution, for I, and the nation, agree to most of its terms.

And the woman who is raped but does not realize that she is pregnant until the eighth or ninth month?

[Keronians]

Because we do not count rape and incest as an excuse for abortion after the limit of viability, whilst the resolution does. And indeed I realise this, ambassador, this is why I am being so stubborn on the matter, for I do not wish to have to draft a repeal to this resolution, for I, and the nation, agree to most of its terms.

And the woman who is raped but does not realize that she is pregnant until the eighth or ninth month?

She can have the baby removed alive for it is now viable, and put it up for adoption. Many homosexual couples and sterile couples would be glad to adopt the baby. At least, that is the case in our nation.

[Keronians]

*Groans at having to stand up yet again to address the ambassador of Urgench* Yes, thank you for your opinion, ambassador, but as I am continually being forced to point out to you, not everybody sees things your way. Our nation certainly sees late-term abortion as immoral and a violation of human rights, unless it is explicitly permitted by the law (all clauses mentioned minus rape and incest). Our founding fathers saw it so as well.

*Rolls his eyes, before quickly smiling* Does the hounourable ambassador of Urgench have anything further to add about my person?

I thank you, ambassador, for clarifying the position on male reproductive rights. I shall happily tick that off my list of concerns. I may have missed it with all of the comments made by the honourable ambassador of Urgench.

We are not obliged to address your Excellency's misogynistic nonsense, it is sufficient to point out the hatred of women and the appalling contempt inherent in the views your Excellency has expressed.

Indeed to treat your Excellency's view with the seriousness your demand would be to accept that they have any validity whatsoever. They do not, and therefore we see no productive use in addressing them.


Yours,

A relief, ambassador, as now I am not obliged to do so either. I can guarantee you that I have been biting my lip so as to avoid being insulting. Indeed, you certainly did have to add things about my person. Thank you, and I hope that you are now finished, as I shall refuse to address you in future, since you deny to give me the respect I am due.

[Urgench]

A relief, ambassador, as now I am not obliged to do so either. I can guarantee you that I have been biting my lip so as to avoid being insulting. Indeed, you certainly did have to add things about my person. Thank you, and I hope that you are now finished, as I shall refuse to address you in future, since you deny to give me the respect I am due.

Your Excellency's protestations are more evidence of your deceitful nature, you demand respect and serious attention to your views and yet you completely ignore any and all attempts to do so, as per-

Ah well if the government of the Keronians believes that 5 months is enough time for a women who has been gang raped and beaten into and recovered from a temporary coma followed by the prospect of many months, perhaps years of physical recovery followed by possible years of psychological recovery is enough time for her to make the decision on whether or not to continue to be pregnant as a result of her ordeal then it must be true.

Your notion that a woman seeking an abortion beyond the ludicrous 5 month cut off point your Excellency advocates should somehow have made up her mind already and must simply put up with the horrific results of her ordeal has been addressed on numerous occasions by us and by other Ambassador's to this organisation and your Excellency has shown no propensity to be able to refute arguments which disprove your own. Instead your Excellency simply parrots your anti-woman propaganda about murder etc.


And your Excellency demands respect?

Yours,

[Jedi Utopians]

OOC: If this legislation passes, it should say in everyone's country at a glance: "Pregnant women are in constant fear of their lives,...."

But maybe that's too much of an "in-joke."

OOC: You mean the repeal I mentioned?

OOC: No, if this resolution passes, it'd be a kick to see the line above in your factbook entry. But I won't go into why, as that'd spoil the fun (and there're potentially multiple reasons).

[Nulono]

A relief, ambassador, as now I am not obliged to do so either. I can guarantee you that I have been biting my lip so as to avoid being insulting. Indeed, you certainly did have to add things about my person. Thank you, and I hope that you are now finished, as I shall refuse to address you in future, since you deny to give me the respect I am due.

Your Excellency's protestations are more evidence of your deceitful nature, you demand respect and serious attention to your views and yet you completely ignore any and all attempts to do so, as per-

Ah well if the government of the Keronians believes that 5 months is enough time for a women who has been gang raped and beaten into and recovered from a temporary coma followed by the prospect of many months, perhaps years of physical recovery followed by possible years of psychological recovery is enough time for her to make the decision on whether or not to continue to be pregnant as a result of her ordeal then it must be true.

Your notion that a woman seeking an abortion beyond the ludicrous 5 month cut off point your Excellency advocates should somehow have made up her mind already and must simply put up with the horrific results of her ordeal has been addressed on numerous occasions by us and by other Ambassador's to this organisation and your Excellency has shown no propensity to be able to refute arguments which disprove your own. Instead your Excellency simply parrots your anti-woman propaganda about murder etc.


And your Excellency demands respect?

Yours,

It is not propaganda to point out that this Proposal strips many citizens of the USSN of their right to live.

The proposal should specify that in the case of rape the exception only applies if the one who got pregnant was the one who was raped.

*sigh*

1. As to bizarre male rape scenarios, the Keronians's Ambassador has quite a vivid imagination and appears to believe that things "ha[ve] happened" that certainly would never occur in The Cat-Tribes's nation and I can't imagine why Keronians would allow them to happen there.

2. I fail to understand why a nation fully embracing and implementing the Reduction of Abortion Act would have the "problem" of a significant number of abortions in the first place.

3. It is all very nice that the Keronian's Ambassador is (with the help of specialist researchers) able to make important decisions within a matter of hours. How that is possibly relevant to how a preteen who becomes pregnant after being raped by her father might behave or should behave with regards to knowledge about pregnancy and abortion options is beyond me. Please "enlighten me," but if you do -- please reference some authoritative information about the psychology, trauma, and body knowledge of preteens, rape victims, and incest survivors before you insist they should be punished for being impregnated against their will by being forced to carry to term with their body and give birth against their will -- causing possible further permanent physical and mental damage to them.

4. Not in response to any of the above but other things you have posted, you appear to have several assumptions about "viability," "personhood," "rights," and when these thing occur in WA member populations. Even referring strictly to humans, you have made statements of alleged fact that are simply false about the degree of development of a human fetus at different ages of gestation.

Finally, you and Nulono have come in at the end of a process of negotiating a carefully drafted, limited piece of legislation and raised numerous, mostly absurd objections. Those with even the slightest merit tend to be of trivial importance. If you simply are taking the position that you won't agree with anything that legalizes abortion in any form, just be honest and say so. Don't waste everyone's time.

1) Is the ambassador suggesting that a male has not been raped? Well certainly that would be an ideal World, but reality is much harsher. It is not only in Keronians that this happens, but in the entire World. For you to suggest that this has not happened, and that it doesn't happen, in your nation is, frankly, quite amusing.

2) "simply false". Why does the ambassador think so?

"Don't waste everyone's time". How so? Please check yourself, ambassador, I have full right, as representative of the Keronian Empire, to express my, and my nation's, opinion and concerns. Trivial? Hardly. We are not against abortion, but we have differing views to the ones others may have.

Abortion in our nation is effectively illegal. However, exceptions are made for health, mental health, foetal defects, rape, incest and maternal life/health. Therefore, your assumptions are baseless. However, we do not feel that rape or incest is a good excuse after the limit of viability.

In short, I do not know how the ambassador from Nulono feels, but we are certainly not completely against this resolution. As I have asserted previously, the concerns we have is with the fact that this is being permitted for the whole of the pregnancy.

If I was against the legalisation of abortion in any way, I wouldn't have made the exceptions I made in the competing resolution. You can be assured that if this resolution passes we shall be drafting a repeal (since amendments are illegal) to effectively nullify it.

I am against this proposal unless the clauses on rape, maternal health, and fetal deformity are removed.

Either way, honoured ambassador from Hiriaurtung Arororugul, I think every effort should be made to see this through too, which also guarantees the right of member states to decide abortion for other cases. It's just that Ms. Harper could not miss the opportunity to secure the rights for cases which are worthy of firm legalisation for many reasons such as the reduction of emotional distress and the reduction of illegal abortions which put women's lives at risk. Of course, the Reduction of Abortion resolution was one of the limitations we had to take into account to avoid duplication.

Emotional duress is no excuse for killing an innocent child.

The argument was made that abortion was ancient and more dangerous when illegal, and should therefore be legal. I pointed out that the same could be said of rape.

If the woman gets pregnant, under this proposal she must be allowed an abortion, even at 9 months.

Unlike your ridiculous and offensive hypothetical analogy, laws prohibiting abortion empirically do not stop abortion, they only cause abortions to be performed through more dangerous, illegal procedures. This is why the Reduction of Abortion Act is far, far, far more effective (if implemented) than any ban on abortion. Plus bans on abortion kill women.

OCC/RL World statistics and studies:

The short version is that making abortion illegal has little or no impact on the number of abortions that occur (in fact, countries allowing abortions have decreasing abortion rates), but severly impacts the safety of the abortions that women obtain. Some 80,000 women die every year from unsafe, illegal abortions. Here are links to the longer version:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21255186/
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301359,00.html
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/12/4/gpr120402.html
http://www.iwhc.org/storage/iwhc/docUploads/BethAbortionComment10.17.07.pdf?documentID=414 (pdf, starts at bottom of page)
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(07)61575-X/fulltext
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/id21.pdf
http://www.medicalabortionconsortium.org/news/yes-legalizing-abortion-does-save-women-s-lives-1072.html

Rape is also safer for the rapist if it's legalized. Does that mean we ought to legalize rape?

Please, ambassador, you have the floor. Enlighten me, for I am obviously an idiot, as to how this could be done with national law if the woman cannot be persuaded to change her mind under international law?

Ambassador, your feminist (and I apologise if this sounds insulting in any way) point of view is beginning to get on my nerves. I insist on a neutral point of view. 5 months are enough to make a decision. I admit I do not have any such qualifications in psychology, but I could have a report produced and sent to me in a matter of hours from specialists. I do not really feel I need to do this as 5 months are enough to make a decision. This government has held this belief since its founding, and clauses on abortion can be found in our Constitution.

In short, your repetitive assertions on women's rights and extremist views are complicating the situation more than necessary.

*sigh*

1. As to bizarre male rape scenarios, the Keronians's Ambassador has quite a vivid imagination and appears to believe that things "ha[ve] happened" that certainly would never occur in The Cat-Tribes's nation and I can't imagine why Keronians would allow them to happen there.

2. I fail to understand why a nation fully embracing and implementing the Reduction of Abortion Act would have the "problem" of a significant number of abortions in the first place.

3. It is all very nice that the Keronian's Ambassador is (with the help of specialist researchers) able to make important decisions within a matter of hours. How that is possibly relevant to how a preteen who becomes pregnant after being raped by her father might behave or should behave with regards to knowledge about pregnancy and abortion options is beyond me. Please "enlighten me," but if you do -- please reference some authoritative information about the psychology, trauma, and body knowledge of preteens, rape victims, and incest survivors before you insist they should be punished for being impregnated against their will by being forced to carry to term with their body and give birth against their will -- causing possible further permanent physical and mental damage to them.

4. Not in response to any of the above but other things you have posted, you appear to have several assumptions about "viability," "personhood," "rights," and when these thing occur in WA member populations. Even referring strictly to humans, you have made statements of alleged fact that are simply false about the degree of development of a human fetus at different ages of gestation.

Finally, you and Nulono have come in at the end of a process of negotiating a carefully drafted, limited piece of legislation and raised numerous, mostly absurd objections. Those with even the slightest merit tend to be of trivial importance. If you simply are taking the position that you won't agree with anything that legalizes abortion in any form, just be honest and say so. Don't waste everyone's time.

I oppose anything that mandates that we legalize elective abortions. I've said that plenty of times.

Please, ambassador, you have the floor. Enlighten me, for I am obviously an idiot, as to how this could be done with national law if the woman cannot be persuaded to change her mind under international law?

Ambassador, your feminist (and I apologise if this sounds insulting in any way) point of view is beginning to get on my nerves. I insist on a neutral point of view. 5 months are enough to make a decision. I admit I do not have any such qualifications in psychology, but I could have a report produced and sent to me in a matter of hours from specialists. I do not really feel I need to do this as 5 months are enough to make a decision. This government has held this belief since its founding, and clauses on abortion can be found in our Constitution.

In short, your repetitive assertions on women's rights and extremist views are complicating the situation more than necessary.

Ah well if the government of the Keronians believes that 5 months is enough time for a women who has been gang raped and beaten into and recovered from a temporary coma followed by the prospect of many months, perhaps years of physical recovery followed by possible years of psychological recovery is enough time for her to make the decision on whether or not to continue to be pregnant as a result of her ordeal then it must be true.


Let us be clear, what your Excellency calls "feminism" is in fact compassion and a realistic understanding of what rape is and what it can do to those it is inflicted upon, your Excellency's desire to avoid dealing with such realism and compassion is both saddening and indicative of a lack of empathy and anything approaching a real or valuable understanding of the realities of the situations this resolution addresses.

By complication what your Excellency means is a position which confronts you with realities and understandings your Excellency finds it difficult to find arguments to refute. Believe us when we say that this resolution is very far from being the CSKU's ideal resolution on this issue, but considering it contains clauses 6 and 7 we are prepared to compromise on our own view to help implement the most basic of protections of decent and civilised treatment for women.

If the uncompromising insistence on decency and the barest minimum of empathy and respect for ones fellow human being is complicating, extreme of unnecessary in your Excellency's view then we pity your Excellency. Your Excellency's view is far from neutral, indeed how could it be when your delegation is drafting a competing resolution, and besides your Excellency has displayed a deeply misogynistic set of beliefs in this debate combined with a callous disregard for the suffering of others which cannot be regarded as neutral under any circumstances.


Yours,

Decency and compassion do not dictate that we mandate that rape victims be given a "get out of jail free" card if they kill an innocent human being.

The argument was made that abortion was ancient and more dangerous when illegal, and should therefore be legal. I pointed out that the same could be said of rape.

So the honorable delegate from Nulono is suggesting that instead of protecting a woman's right to choose, this glorious assembly should instead focus on making rape safer by being legalizing it? You are welcome to introduce such legislation, although I don't think it will make quorum.

Next thing you know, you'll be proposing that this assembly ban Jewish religious practices.

Oh, wait.

1. My point was that the points presented were clearly insufficient to justify abortion.
2. Quite a few religious practices are already banned. It is the WA's duty to ban those religious practices that violate human rights.

OOC: You mean the repeal I mentioned?

OOC: No, if this resolution passes, it'd be a kick to see the line above in your factbook entry. But I won't go into why, as that'd spoil the fun (and there're potentially multiple reasons).

OOC: Why would this proposal make pregnant women fear for their lives?