Trans Discussion Thread: Spiro Reignited

[Azurnailia]

I don’t know if this is where I’d put it but I’m gonna tell my English Teacher I’m trans. If you don’t already know, I have to hide the fact that I am (since I live in Texas of all places). My English teacher is actually a very progressive person and seems very accepting. She participated in many different protests and gave her newborn child a “Babies against Bigots” sign.

Is this a good idea?

Teachers arent nannies

Why did you quote me from something I said like a month ago?

[Grenartia]

Teachers arent nannies

Why did you quote me from something I said like a month ago?

Closer to 5 months ago. And coincidentally, you said it the day they created the nation, and that post was on the top of the page. Still weird, and odd, but I can see it happening from them just like, clicking the latest page of the thread, then coming back 5 months later and seeing yours as the first unread post and responding to it.

But we might not get confirmation for another 5 months.

[Aggicificicerous]

A more accurate comparison would be changing what people understand the definition of hair to be.

People currently as sourced below see gender as being defined or dependent by sex at birth. You can appeal to authority and say they are seperate all you want but that is theoretical understanding not societal application. Its a social construct and so you need society to buy into it which you just dont have the numbers for.

Ironically, most people don't know what hair really is. But hey, these people you've sourced below (whatever that means) are definitely more convincing that scientists and scholars. You're trying to paint some great seething majority of people outraged about the trans menace, but I'm not seeing it. Most of the population doesn't give a shit; LGBTQ rights barely register, and I'll bet most people who say it did are doing so because they are LGBTQ and worried about themselves or those around them. Here in Canada, numbers are shifting to the point where a majority of people don't agree with you or your mother in law, I'm sorry to say. I'm sure the numbers have shifted even more since 2023.

So let's go back to your initial complaint. It seems that an decreasing minority of people are hung up on The Trans Question to the point where they're threatening social cohesion as a means of expressing their discontent, holding the rest of us hostage with the threat of damaging society. I can only suggest you stop threatening society on the one hand and insisting that social cohesion is super important on the other. It's rather like a drunk driver lecturing us on road safety.

[Pale Dawn]

A more accurate comparison would be changing what people understand the definition of hair to be.

People currently as sourced below see gender as being defined or dependent by sex at birth. You can appeal to authority and say they are seperate all you want but that is theoretical understanding not societal application. Its a social construct and so you need society to buy into it which you just dont have the numbers for.

Ironically, most people don't know what hair really is. But hey, these people you've sourced below (whatever that means) are definitely more convincing that scientists and scholars. You're trying to paint some great seething majority of people outraged about the trans menace, but I'm not seeing it. Most of the population doesn't give a shit; LGBTQ rights barely register, and I'll bet most people who say it did are doing so because they are LGBTQ and worried about themselves or those around them. Here in Canada, numbers are shifting to the point where a majority of people don't agree with you or your mother in law, I'm sorry to say. I'm sure the numbers have shifted even more since 2023.

So let's go back to your initial complaint. It seems that an decreasing minority of people are hung up on The Trans Question to the point where they're threatening social cohesion as a means of expressing their discontent, holding the rest of us hostage with the threat of damaging society. I can only suggest you stop threatening society on the one hand and insisting that social cohesion is super important on the other. It's rather like a drunk driver lecturing us on road safety.

You seem to be fighting a pretend argument you think or want me to be presenting so im going to reiterate a few statements that might unwind your attempted summary of my points.

The social construct here, gender, is just how people believe you should dress or how you should present yourself based on how you identify. That sounds like an understood and accepted concept to me.

Except the majority define it as being dependent on sex at birth. You want it to be something that it isnt.

A social construct should fit the societal understanding of it.

[. The survey i linked also acknowledges that while the belief in gender being sex dependant is strong or growing the desire to protect and help transgender is also growing so there is empathy for the suffering but a holding to the fundamental ls of the social construct.

If you are still confused as to what im saying feel free to ask clarifying questions

[Aggicificicerous]

You seem to be fighting a pretend argument you think or want me to be presenting so im going to reiterate a few statements that might unwind your attempted summary of my points.

Except the majority define it as being dependent on sex at birth. You want it to be something that it isnt.

A social construct should fit the societal understanding of it.

[. The survey i linked also acknowledges that while the belief in gender being sex dependant is strong or growing the desire to protect and help transgender is also growing so there is empathy for the suffering but a holding to the fundamental ls of the social construct.

If you are still confused as to what im saying feel free to ask clarifying questions

This isn't what I was responding to. Here's the original exchange, on "social cohesion", in case you forgot. If you're done shifting the goalposts, feel free to respond. Or don't. It's your call.

Are you still on this line? Trying to insinuate that the mere presence of a trans person is so unseemly that it damages social cohesion? What a way to hold the world hostage: "discriminate against this minority group or I'll damage society". My brother in Christ. My sister in Mohammad. My sibling in Zoroaster. You are the one harming social cohesion.

Saying that changing a primary defining feature of how we commonly identify and understand eachother does not effect social cohesion is just dishonest. Trans folk arent the world.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

If you are still confused as to what im saying feel free to ask clarifying questions

"Societal understanding" is a descriptive matter, not a prescriptive one. Changing what the "societal understanding" of various matters of public interest is, in fact, the raison d'être of anyone who purports to do politics in a democratic society.

[Nerop]

Fair point, albeit I think most surgeries should be very limited to children, and I believe even necessary surgeries and operations that are needed to rejuvenate a child's body should also ne restricted. Your actions, your consequences. And yes, including those that run in the family. Imagine ruining one's visual appearance just so that they return to being an npc to big corps and the state. So much work, it looks like a new person has appeared, till you realize thats false.

Sex reassignment surgeries on transgender minors is already exceedingly rare and only done when it is necessary. Only about 2% of US minors for example identify as transgender, and only 0.01% of that 2% has undergone any surgery. Additionally the wait time to actually have SRS Surgeries tends to be so long that if it were to be recommended to say a 15 year old, they would be a legal adult before the surgery could be performed. These laws are a nothing burger that seek the make the extremely small number of minors who need these lives much much worse.... .but in generall I am opposed to laws like this because "I won a popularity contest" should not form a basis for making medical decisions.... which is what these laws effectively are..... legislaturors (aka people who won a popularity contest and have no relevant experience) making decisions that effect the medical wellbeing of people. These sort of things should be between the medical professionl, patient and relevant guardians.

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat, muscles, and even skin, groins).
Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money. Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?
These procedures are extremely expensive and very unhealthy. Most of the users experience infections.
Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.
And thats such a "Fantastic" idea - seek to be accepted by all aspects of society by looking and relating to absolutely nobody. Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

[Saarland-Westpalia]

Sex reassignment surgeries on transgender minors is already exceedingly rare and only done when it is necessary. Only about 2% of US minors for example identify as transgender, and only 0.01% of that 2% has undergone any surgery. Additionally the wait time to actually have SRS Surgeries tends to be so long that if it were to be recommended to say a 15 year old, they would be a legal adult before the surgery could be performed. These laws are a nothing burger that seek the make the extremely small number of minors who need these lives much much worse.... .but in generall I am opposed to laws like this because "I won a popularity contest" should not form a basis for making medical decisions.... which is what these laws effectively are..... legislaturors (aka people who won a popularity contest and have no relevant experience) making decisions that effect the medical wellbeing of people. These sort of things should be between the medical professionl, patient and relevant guardians.

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat, muscles, and even skin, groins).
Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money. Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?
These procedures are extremely expensive and very unhealthy. Most of the users experience infections.
Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.
And thats such a "Fantastic" idea - seek to be accepted by all aspects of society by looking and relating to absolutely nobody. Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

Bro u got way more infections if u listened to that pack of garbage that RFK Jr. Tells you

[Grenartia]

Sex reassignment surgeries on transgender minors is already exceedingly rare and only done when it is necessary. Only about 2% of US minors for example identify as transgender, and only 0.01% of that 2% has undergone any surgery. Additionally the wait time to actually have SRS Surgeries tends to be so long that if it were to be recommended to say a 15 year old, they would be a legal adult before the surgery could be performed. These laws are a nothing burger that seek the make the extremely small number of minors who need these lives much much worse.... .but in generall I am opposed to laws like this because "I won a popularity contest" should not form a basis for making medical decisions.... which is what these laws effectively are..... legislaturors (aka people who won a popularity contest and have no relevant experience) making decisions that effect the medical wellbeing of people. These sort of things should be between the medical professionl, patient and relevant guardians.

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat, muscles, and even skin, groins).
Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money. Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?
These procedures are extremely expensive and very unhealthy. Most of the users experience infections.
Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.
And thats such a "Fantastic" idea - seek to be accepted by all aspects of society by looking and relating to absolutely nobody. Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

Word salad ass response.

[United Calanworie]

Sex reassignment surgeries on transgender minors is already exceedingly rare and only done when it is necessary. Only about 2% of US minors for example identify as transgender, and only 0.01% of that 2% has undergone any surgery. Additionally the wait time to actually have SRS Surgeries tends to be so long that if it were to be recommended to say a 15 year old, they would be a legal adult before the surgery could be performed. These laws are a nothing burger that seek the make the extremely small number of minors who need these lives much much worse.... .but in generall I am opposed to laws like this because "I won a popularity contest" should not form a basis for making medical decisions.... which is what these laws effectively are..... legislaturors (aka people who won a popularity contest and have no relevant experience) making decisions that effect the medical wellbeing of people. These sort of things should be between the medical professionl, patient and relevant guardians.

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat,

Not an organ.

muscles

Muscle tissue isn't an organ. Muscles are. But muscle tissue itself is not.

skin

This one is an organ yes.

groins).

Definitely not an organ.

Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money.

I mean, yeah, it's a job. They do the job so that they make money so they don't starve. It's like why a tax professional does taxes. It's not like they have some moral high ground because they're a tax professional.

Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?

So many organizations. But also like I listed above, most of those aren't organs.

These procedures are extremely expensive

True.

and very unhealthy.

Not true.

Most of the users experience infections.

Sheth et al. reports a 5.5% surgical site infection rate in gender-affirming vaginoplasty at n=22 and an empiric treatment rate of 86.3% (n=19) which means cultures were only obtained in n=3. There was a total of 398 patients in this cohort, and it's a retrospective analysis from 2016-2023.This definitely does not constitute most. On the other hand, we have Zhao et al reporting a rate of 52.4% surgical site infection in a cohort of 82 patients from 1984-2008.

I'm going to break down Zhao a little more because these data are more interesting. Notably the cohort underwent 1,383 operations collectively or an average of 16.86 operations/individual. Zhao reports that "[a]mong the entire cohort, 43 (52.4%) patients developed an SSI at least once during the multi-step process of genital conversion." This demonstrates more confounding factors than were present at first look. The first being that we don't actually know what the true SSI incidence rate is in Zhao's data because any individual who developed at least one site infection was reported the same in the data no matter their total number of operations. This is particularly pertinent (as Zhao et al observes) because "[t]his difference in prevalence of SSI between the FTM and MTF groups was statistically significant (odds ratio=6.9, p<0.01 between groups). The mean number of OR encounters before development of an SSI was 4.7±2.6 in the FTM group and 2.3±1.2 in the MTF group. The mean number of procedures performed on a patient before the development of a SSI was 8.4±6.0 in the FTM group and 7.4±2.6 in the MTF group (Table 2)." Zhao explains this as follows: "Patients undergoing FTM reassignment developed more SSIs than those undergoing MTF reassignment. This makes intuitive sense, in that genital reconstruction in FTM reassignment involves a greater number of procedures than does genital reconstruction in MTF reassignment because of anatomic differences and more extensive use of prostheses and foreign materials."

I'm of the opinion that there's a few confounding factors here, and indeed, the study authors acknowledge their limitations. Additionally, we've made significant advances in controlling site infections since 1984 (after all, that was over 40 years ago now) and this cohort is over such a large timeframe that I question why the authors did not control for when the infections occurred - an infection in 1984 is weighted the same as one in 2008 despite significant advances in infection control since. As such I lean more towards Sheth's data set showing (with both a larger cohort and a shorter study duration) a vastly decreased rate of SSI at 5.5%. UpToDate states "[i]t is estimated that SSI develops in 2 to 5 percent of patients undergoing inpatient surgical procedures each year in the United States," which would align with an infection rate of 5.5% broadly in Sheth's study focusing on vaginoplasty.

Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.

Well that's a tangent.

Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

We don't. They're called gender affirmation surgeries.

[Chess Socialism]

Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money.

That’s called a job.

[Grenartia]

Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money.

That’s called a job.

Its literally like dunking on people for eating food because "farmers are in it for the money".

Like, no shit, sherlock, they gotta make a living somehow. Even if you're driven by pure love of the game, the system practically forces you to make money off of it.

[Tekania]

These surgeries are rituals

No, they are surgeries, there is nothing ritualistic about them. They are procedural varying by the goals of the patient.

encompassing a loud minority

They only reason they have ot be loud is due to the concerted effort by the ultra-right to eradictate them.

that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else

This phrasing here is complete nonsensical word salad.

and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex

No, this is not "LARPing"

by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat, muscles, and even skin, groins).

Nothing that is removed is "crucial organs". Additionally most tissue is just repurposes in reconfiguration of the anatomy to match the body to the mental map of the patient.

[quote[Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money. [/quote]

No more so that any other surgeon performing any other procedure.

Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?

There is not really that much in the way of "dead tissues" as most tissue is repurposed for the reconstruction, what little is left is generally sent to pathology for testing, and then destroyed per guiselines. These aren't some sort of clandestine medical procedures being carries out in back alleys, these are surgical operations being carried out in functioning hospital with surgical wards.

These procedures are extremely expensive and very unhealthy. Most of the users experience infections.

Modern infection rates are quite low, around 5% which is within the standard rate for most surgeries.

Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins.

Castration and circumcision may be religious... .but that is complete immaterial to this discussion.

The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a Jew. That is absolutely religious.

They are generally called "gender reassignment surgeries" as an umbrela term. Generally they will just be whatever the specific procedure is, radical mastectomy, breat augmentation, lipoplasty, liposculpture, vaginoplasty, phaloplasty, metoidioplasty, vulvoplasty, etc.

[Comestiqua]

Sex reassignment surgeries on transgender minors is already exceedingly rare and only done when it is necessary. Only about 2% of US minors for example identify as transgender, and only 0.01% of that 2% has undergone any surgery. Additionally the wait time to actually have SRS Surgeries tends to be so long that if it were to be recommended to say a 15 year old, they would be a legal adult before the surgery could be performed. These laws are a nothing burger that seek the make the extremely small number of minors who need these lives much much worse.... .but in generall I am opposed to laws like this because "I won a popularity contest" should not form a basis for making medical decisions.... which is what these laws effectively are..... legislaturors (aka people who won a popularity contest and have no relevant experience) making decisions that effect the medical wellbeing of people. These sort of things should be between the medical professionl, patient and relevant guardians.

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat, muscles, and even skin, groins).
Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money. Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?
These procedures are extremely expensive and very unhealthy. Most of the users experience infections.
Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.
And thats such a "Fantastic" idea - seek to be accepted by all aspects of society by looking and relating to absolutely nobody. Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

"Alle Dinge sind Gift, und nichts ist ohne Gift; allein die Dosis macht, dass ein Ding kein Gift ist.
All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; the dosage alone makes it so a thing is not a poison."

[Nerop]

These surgeries are rituals encompassing a loud minority that seek to replenish themselves so that they can feel accepted by looking like nobody else and expecting people to respect them when they larp as the opposite sex by adding holes to their bodies or removing crucial organs (like fat,

Not an organ.

muscles

Muscle tissue isn't an organ. Muscles are. But muscle tissue itself is not.

skin

This one is an organ yes.

groins).

Definitely not an organ.

Be realistic, most of these surgeons are in it for the money.

I mean, yeah, it's a job. They do the job so that they make money so they don't starve. It's like why a tax professional does taxes. It's not like they have some moral high ground because they're a tax professional.

Who's there to safeguard the dead organs so that they dont get trafficked?

So many organizations. But also like I listed above, most of those aren't organs.

These procedures are extremely expensive

True.

and very unhealthy.

Not true.

Most of the users experience infections.

Sheth et al. reports a 5.5% surgical site infection rate in gender-affirming vaginoplasty at n=22 and an empiric treatment rate of 86.3% (n=19) which means cultures were only obtained in n=3. There was a total of 398 patients in this cohort, and it's a retrospective analysis from 2016-2023.This definitely does not constitute most. On the other hand, we have Zhao et al reporting a rate of 52.4% surgical site infection in a cohort of 82 patients from 1984-2008.

I'm going to break down Zhao a little more because these data are more interesting. Notably the cohort underwent 1,383 operations collectively or an average of 16.86 operations/individual. Zhao reports that "[a]mong the entire cohort, 43 (52.4%) patients developed an SSI at least once during the multi-step process of genital conversion." This demonstrates more confounding factors than were present at first look. The first being that we don't actually know what the true SSI incidence rate is in Zhao's data because any individual who developed at least one site infection was reported the same in the data no matter their total number of operations. This is particularly pertinent (as Zhao et al observes) because "[t]his difference in prevalence of SSI between the FTM and MTF groups was statistically significant (odds ratio=6.9, p<0.01 between groups). The mean number of OR encounters before development of an SSI was 4.7±2.6 in the FTM group and 2.3±1.2 in the MTF group. The mean number of procedures performed on a patient before the development of a SSI was 8.4±6.0 in the FTM group and 7.4±2.6 in the MTF group (Table 2)." Zhao explains this as follows: "Patients undergoing FTM reassignment developed more SSIs than those undergoing MTF reassignment. This makes intuitive sense, in that genital reconstruction in FTM reassignment involves a greater number of procedures than does genital reconstruction in MTF reassignment because of anatomic differences and more extensive use of prostheses and foreign materials."

I'm of the opinion that there's a few confounding factors here, and indeed, the study authors acknowledge their limitations. Additionally, we've made significant advances in controlling site infections since 1984 (after all, that was over 40 years ago now) and this cohort is over such a large timeframe that I question why the authors did not control for when the infections occurred - an infection in 1984 is weighted the same as one in 2008 despite significant advances in infection control since. As such I lean more towards Sheth's data set showing (with both a larger cohort and a shorter study duration) a vastly decreased rate of SSI at 5.5%. UpToDate states "[i]t is estimated that SSI develops in 2 to 5 percent of patients undergoing inpatient surgical procedures each year in the United States," which would align with an infection rate of 5.5% broadly in Sheth's study focusing on vaginoplasty.

Castration and circumcision are similar procedures and look they all have religious origins. The firdt person to open a trans clinic was a jew. That is absolutely religious. And these are the same kinds of people that are antitheistic. And they worship the demiurge unbeknownst to them. I have small jewish heritage so dont think this is discriminatory, I am merely stating that this has its origins in religion. Religion can be very detrimental.

Well that's a tangent.

Besides, if sex and gender are not the same, why call them sex "reassignment" surgeries?

We don't. They're called gender affirmation surgeries.

So listen.
Fat isn't an organ but fat is stored in all organs and removing most or all fat content from the physical body is extremely harmful and fatal. This is where im getting at.
I said muscles. Fullstop.
And what is the function of an organ? Any biological feature that acts for the body. Basic definition. Will we remove prostates? Why isnt there a surgery that mutilates the prostate? Men are generally taller than women, how in the world are we going to shorten men? We can by starving people. Men are also stronger and longer than women. Are we going to amputate their hands or legs so that they are the same height and width and lenght as a woman's?
But i thought males and men weren't the same?
Why are they called mtf and ftm if both terms ARE for the biological and genetic makeup rather than the sociological aspect they claim to be? Can humans change their sex likeseahorse? Such nonsense.
I also thought one can be a male or a female however they wanted. Why must they ALL follow a procedure and dogma that drains their assets, and has very fluctuating outcomes?
Our brains determine whether somebody manifests "feminine" or "masculine" personalities - shall we mutilate our brains so that it favors one over the other? "Because organs are all that determine masculinity and femininity", so chopping off one's breasts and dick is healthy? Normal? We live in such a sexualized civilization that we forget they also have other uses, to help children and help your bladder.
Even though Im sure you know the worldview that sex organs determine gender is nonsense. Youre a pervert and that's it.
In addition, organized crimelords murder for money and profit. I guess we should congratulate them too.
Why must everybody be the same? Perpetuating what they stand up against. I thought the trans folk valued diversity.

[Likhinia]

snip for brevity

So listen.
Fat isn't an organ but fat is stored in all organs and removing most or all fat content from the physical body is extremely harmful and fatal. This is where im getting at.

Yeah. Okay. But they're not removing all the fat from their body. I don't think there's a gender affirming surgery where they take fat from organs.

I said muscles. Fullstop.

Top surgery doesn't remove any muscle, and as far as I'm aware bottom surgery avoids it too.

And what is the function of an organ? Any biological feature that acts for the body. Basic definition. Will we remove prostates? Why isnt there a surgery that mutilates the prostate?

I don't know why you're talking about it like vagino/phalloplasty deliberately removes hormone-producing organs.

Men are generally taller than women, how in the world are we going to shorten men?

You'll find that women can also be tall.

We can by starving people. Men are also stronger and longer than women. Are we going to amputate their hands or legs so that they are the same height and width and lenght as a woman's?

What?

But i thought males and men weren't the same?
Why are they called mtf and ftm if both terms ARE for the biological and genetic makeup rather than the sociological aspect they claim to be? Can humans change their sex likeseahorse? Such nonsense.

Most seahorses don't change sex. You might be thinking of sea slugs or any of a number of marine species that do. Word salad also.

I also thought one can be a male or a female however they wanted. Why must they ALL follow a procedure and dogma that drains their assets, and has very fluctuating outcomes?

Yeah, cis people have fluctuating outcomes too. No person, trans or cis, has to have any gender affirming surgeries.

Our brains determine whether somebody manifests "feminine" or "masculine" personalities - shall we mutilate our brains so that it favors one over the other?

Are you suggesting we lobotomise trans people?

"Because organs are all that determine masculinity and femininity", so chopping off one's breasts and dick is healthy? Normal? We live in such a sexualized civilization that we forget they also have other uses, to help children and help your bladder.

Oh, are we back at the "women are meant to have children" thing already?

In addition, organized crimelords murder for money and profit. I guess we should congratulate them too.

I think you'll find major differences between murdering someone and taking out an inflamed appendix.

Why must everybody be the same? Perpetuating what they stand up against. I thought the trans folk valued diversity.

What?

[Opkyo]

So listen.
Fat isn't an organ but fat is stored in all organs and removing most or all fat content from the physical body is extremely harmful and fatal. This is where im getting at.

People aren't removing anywhere near most of their fat. They might be losing some, but keep in mind not everyone has the same amount of fat to begin with, so losing weight doesn't automatically put you in the 'lethally underweight' range.

I said muscles. Fullstop.
And what is the function of an organ? Any biological feature that acts for the body. Basic definition. Will we remove prostates? Why isnt there a surgery that mutilates the prostate?

You'll note most organs aren't removed. I don't understand if you actually have a point here.
And there probably is, just nobody's actually wanted it.

Men are generally taller than women, how in the world are we going to shorten men? We can by starving people. Men are also stronger and longer than women. Are we going to amputate their hands or legs so that they are the same height and width and lenght as a woman's?

There are also some women that are taller than some men. I don't see them shortened. There's no reason to adjust something that already varies massively between individuals.

Why are they called mtf and ftm if both terms ARE for the biological and genetic makeup rather than the sociological aspect they claim to be?

These, at least to me, refer to the change in presentation and in how others see you, rather than anything actually biological. Also, keep in mind that these terms come from back when you did have to get surgery to be accepted, and there was no difference between sex and gender in the public eye.

Can humans change their sex likeseahorse? Such nonsense.

Gender is also nonsense.

I also thought one can be a male or a female however they wanted. Why must they ALL follow a procedure and dogma that drains their assets, and has very fluctuating outcomes?

They don't ALL have to. But many choose to, not just because it makes them feel more comfortable in their own body, but also because it helps them to pass and avoid being misgendered.

Our brains determine whether somebody manifests "feminine" or "masculine" personalities - shall we mutilate our brains so that it favors one over the other? "Because organs are all that determine masculinity and femininity", so chopping off one's breasts and dick is healthy? Normal? We live in such a sexualized civilization that we forget they also have other uses, to help children and help your bladder.

Literally everything about humans is based on organs. You're speaking a language you only know about because you have a brain.
It's not the sole deciding factor, either. And some people have no interest in children.
And yes, it is healthy, if having such organs is so painful to the owner that they literally would rather die than have them.

Even though Im sure you know the worldview that sex organs determine gender is nonsense. Youre a pervert and that's it.

It actually has nothing to do with what you want. People have the right to make decisions about their own bodies.
Let's say you're forced to get an ad tattooed on your forehead. You'd want to get rid of it. Because it is unpleasant to go outside.
This is what it's like for some people. And in such a situation, you're saying that people shouldn't be able to remove the tattoo, because tattoo removal can (not necessarily always) lead to scars. Scars that are still better than having an ad tattooed on your forehead.

In addition, organized crimelords murder for money and profit. I guess we should congratulate them too.

You'll note that crimelords make money off killing and stealing. Doctors make money off making people happy. They are not similar at all.

Why must everybody be the same? Perpetuating what they stand up against. I thought the trans folk valued diversity.

Not everybody has to be the same. And that means some people have bodies that look a bit different to how they looked at birth.
Just because you can't see the appeal of something doesn't mean you have to condemn it. I don't see any appeal in hugging a cactus, and it'd probably hurt to try, but if that's what someone needs to not kill themself, then I'm happy to let them do it. That's diversity. Even though I don't care for it, I'll still get them a cactus so they don't die.

[Haymarket Riot]

Nerop, please read our rules before engaging further.

Youre a pervert and that's it.

For your comment here and continued engagement in the thread as such,

*** Official warning for flaming and trolling ***

[Imperial Ander]

Question, does being non binary count as trans?

[Pale Dawn]

If you are still confused as to what im saying feel free to ask clarifying questions

"Societal understanding" is a descriptive matter, not a prescriptive one. Changing what the "societal understanding" of various matters of public interest is, in fact, the raison d'être of anyone who purports to do politics in a democratic society.

Yes but they arent saying it is changing. They are saying it has always been other.

[Pale Dawn]

Ironically, most people don't know what hair really is. But hey, these people you've sourced below (whatever that means)

see link i provided in context post as i tried to include you in my thought process.

have are definitely more convincing that scientists and scholars.

also addressed previously. Theoretical understanding and social application is not 1 to 1.

You're trying to paint some great seething majority

where do i indicate seething?

of people outraged about the trans menace

you accussed me of goalposts without substatiation and then create this straw man to argue against? Where have i accussed anyone of being a menace or even indicated anger at anything from anyone? A quote perhaps if you could bother replying to me instead of the fever dream you apply to me?

but I'm not seeing it. Most of the population doesn't give a shit; LGBTQ rights barely register, and I'll bet most people who say it did are doing so because they are LGBTQ and worried about themselves or those around them.

i actually took time to show you the quote of me discussing peoples wish to prottrans folk as being seperate from the underlying disconnect but you claimed it was goal post moving. Also im talking about trans in the trans thread and the percieved difference between gender and sex as society views it based on collected information. If you want to discuss lgbtq issues at large i prefer you indicate the issue you are talking about instead of throwing up a big vague tarp and saying im against it. Youve been here long enough to be specific or vague in your comments. I prefer the former.

Here in Canada, numbers are shifting to the point where a majority of people don't agree with you or your mother in law, I'm sorry to say. I'm sure the numbers have shifted even more since 2023.

except i d9nt care about canada and here the trend was going the opposite direction.

So let's go back to your initial complaint

do you know what that was because so far you seem to be arguing vaguely against fox or something.

It seems that an decreasing minority of people are hung up on The Trans Question to the point where they're threatening social cohesion as a means of expressing their discontent

nope not at all what i said. Listeningto what people say about me rather than my words? Thats a D grade.

, holding the rest of us hostage with the threat of damaging society.

Pointing out you are doing something isnt a threat.

I can only suggest you stop threatening society on the one hand and insisting that social cohesion is super important on the other.

Please quote my threat or better yet report it to moderation.

It's rather like a drunk driver lecturing us on road safety.

no bit i feel like im talking to a drunk for all your points had to do with my actual words.
You cant tell the difference between goal posts and context evidently so i dont have high hopes for you understanding me. But ill tried again. Replied last night as well but formatting was screwed so i deleted it and ate some cheesecake. Seeing it in the light of day that was the right choice.

[Grenartia]

Question, does being non binary count as trans?

Since being trans is defined by having any gender identity (or lack thereof, or more than one) other than the one associated most commonly associated with your sex at birth, then yeah.

[Hidrandia]

Question, does being non binary count as trans?

if they want to be :p

[Imperial Ander]

Question, does being non binary count as trans?

if they want to be

Question, does being non binary count as trans?

Since being trans is defined by having any gender identity (or lack thereof, or more than one) other than the one associated most commonly associated with your sex at birth, then yeah.

Thanks! Being LGBTQ is amazing!

[Tekania]

So listen.
Fat isn't an organ but fat is stored in all organs and removing most or all fat content from the physical body is extremely harmful and fatal. This is where im getting at.
I said muscles. Fullstop.

Nothing in GRS involved "removing most fat content form the physical body".... so this just forms yet in another long line of complete irrelevant points you bring up. In GRS tissues are mostly repurposed for the anatomical changes, not removed completely.

Will we remove prostates? Why isnt there a surgery that mutilates the prostate?

Why would one remove or mutilate the prostate? Under Feminizing HRT it starts reponding and acting like the Skene's gland, because what is called the Skene's gland in females and Prostate in males is the same organ that responds in the same manners based upon what the hormon profile presented to it is.... no point in considering its removal. That particular type of tissue has a specific useful purpose and just had functional adjustments made in response to hormones.

Men are generally taller than women, how in the world are we going to shorten men?

Generally... on average.... not specifically however. no need to shorten anyone. I'm 5'6", not exactly out of place for a woman.

Men are also stronger and longer than women.

Strength differences come from high lean muscle mass.... that is something that changes with HRT. As for "longer" that is back to height.

Are we going to amputate their hands or legs so that they are the same height and width and lenght as a woman's?

That is from height, humans have an approximate ratio of height to arm span.... it only marginally different in ranges between the sexes, most people fall within the overlap, with males having an ape index of 1.01 - 1.05 and females 1.00 to 1.03, with the vast majority of people being about 1.01-1.02 regardless of sex.

But i thought males and men weren't the same?

They aren't. male denotes sex, usually phenotypical sex, and "man" is a particular social identity.

Why are they called mtf and ftm if both terms ARE for the biological and genetic makeup rather than the sociological aspect they claim to be? Can humans change their sex likeseahorse?

They are largely holdover abbreviations that had been used online, though they have been comming out of favor due ot overlap. For example FTM while having been used for "Female to Male" is also used for "First Time Mom"... which has caused some social media hilarity before when Trans men end up in First Time Mom feeds and vice-versa.

I also thought one can be a male or a female however they wanted. Why must they ALL follow a procedure and dogma that drains their assets, and has very fluctuating outcomes?

We don't "all follow a procedure" There are a ton of different procedures. And not every trans person or even ever trans woman or trans man seeks the same procedures.

Our brains determine whether somebody manifests "feminine" or "masculine" personalities - shall we mutilate our brains so that it favors one over the other?

Why do you think trans people are trans? Our brains "manifest" a personality of gender that does not conform to what is usual for the gender we were assigned at birth. We're not the ones proposing "mutilating brains".

"Because organs are all that determine masculinity and femininity", so chopping off one's breasts and dick is healthy? Normal? We live in such a sexualized civilization that we forget they also have other uses, to help children and help your bladder.

In the sense of them contributing a mosaic of traits that can be grouped masculine or feminine sure... it's not all that strictly delineated however. I've had no FFS, no tracheal shave..... and I have so much passing priviledge that I can run out in jeans shorts and a tshirt with no makeup on and still get ma'amed.

Even though Im sure you know the worldview that sex organs determine gender is nonsense.

Something I can finally agree on with you..... sex-organs determining gender is nonsense.

<trolling nonsense removed>

If I would classify something as a perversion it would be having a very unhealthy obsession over what genitals a stranger has.

In addition, organized crimelords murder for money and profit. I guess we should congratulate them too.

Here we go again to complete irrelevant points.

Why must everybody be the same? Perpetuating what they stand up against. I thought the trans folk valued diversity.

We do value diversity. And we don't expect people to be the same. We're not the ones trying to shove messy biology into a box so it conforms to someone elses expectation of gender.... that is what you're doing.