UK Politics Thread: The Mandelson Effect

[Tombourville]

If it’s a public space, you have no reason to expect privacy, and thus, there is no issue. Of course, socioeconomic issues must be addressed too, as must rehabilitation, but deterrence plays a role too.

If you left your house in the morning to find a person waiting for you at the property line who proceeded to follow you around all day, taking notes on everything you did, always waiting for you to leave again when you entered a private space, would you accept that you have no grounds to object to this situation, as you have no expectation of privacy in a public space?

That is the idea behind CCTV cameras, but nobody seems to dislike them. The idea is to simply make them more effective, as well as online anti-terrorism and anti-crime efforts.

[Ifreann]

If you left your house in the morning to find a person waiting for you at the property line who proceeded to follow you around all day, taking notes on everything you did, always waiting for you to leave again when you entered a private space, would you accept that you have no grounds to object to this situation, as you have no expectation of privacy in a public space?

That is the idea behind CCTV cameras,

I know, that's why I described it like that.

but nobody seems to dislike them. The idea is to simply make them more effective, as well as online anti-terrorism and anti-crime efforts.

I think any reasonable person would dislike being followed around and monitored by a government agent. It's just easier to not notice CCTV.

[Tombourville]

That is the idea behind CCTV cameras,

I know, that's why I described it like that.

but nobody seems to dislike them. The idea is to simply make them more effective, as well as online anti-terrorism and anti-crime efforts.

I think any reasonable person would dislike being followed around and monitored by a government agent. It's just easier to not notice CCTV.

So it’s fine, as nobody will notice the CCTV - facial recognition or not - or tracking their location on mobiles. It’s easy, and win-win. I don’t see it as oppression, but rather freedom, freedom from crime and fear.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades (soon three whole decades): "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"
And they will try the same draconian stupidity until the heat death of the Universe apparently.

[Tombourville]

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades (soon three whole decades): "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"
And they will try the same draconian stupidity until the heat death of the Universe apparently.

Yes because I am such a Blairite and a Tory. So very true.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades (soon three whole decades): "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"
And they will try the same draconian stupidity until the heat death of the Universe apparently.

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades: "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"

You said this already

[Ifreann]

I know, that's why I described it like that.

I think any reasonable person would dislike being followed around and monitored by a government agent. It's just easier to not notice CCTV.

So it’s fine, as nobody will notice the CCTV - facial recognition or not - or tracking their location on mobiles. It’s easy, and win-win. I don’t see it as oppression, but rather freedom, freedom from crime and fear.

People aren't free from fear when there's a g-man following them around. That's a very fearful situation.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades (soon three whole decades): "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"
And they will try the same draconian stupidity until the heat death of the Universe apparently.

blairites and tories after trying technological solutions to socio-economical problems for two whole decades: "Why is there still crim, we need cctv in every brick and stone"

You said this already :P

Well some people won't stop so. <.<

[Tombourville]

I DRAW A LINE IN THE SAND, THROW DOWN THE GAUNTLET AND SAY HOT CHOCOLATE REFILLS TODAY, HOT CHOCOLATE REFILLS TOMORROW, HOT CHOCOLATE REFILLS FOREVER! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 42287.html

Anyways, was anyone else at the Palestine march?

[Camtropia]

Can't believe we're only ten pages into this thread and both our far right and far left members are advocating for a China-style surveillance state. Good god, what happened to 'British values'?

It is needed to reduce crime rates and ensure civility.
If you have not done anything wrong, you won't have anything to worry about.

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

[Vassenor]

It is needed to reduce crime rates and ensure civility.
If you have not done anything wrong, you won't have anything to worry about.

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

Or Plasticine Action.

Or a blank sign that might get #NotMyKing written on it at some point.

Or a magazine cover talking about the banning of signs reading Palestine Action.

[Imperializt Russia]

Ian Watkins, disgraced LostProphets singer and violent nonce, has died in a prison attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2d2me0eljo

A recent report has stated that violence in Wakefield prison has markedly increased in recent months - the BBC article makes the point:

The report from the chief inspector of prisons said: "Many prisoners told us they felt unsafe, particularly older men convicted of sexual offences who increasingly shared the prison with a growing cohort of younger prisoners."

They don't try to build on this comment though.
I'll link the full report from the inspectorate here, but I must insist that you first read this comical "easy read" summary.

[Nea Skotia]

Can't believe we're only ten pages into this thread and both our far right and far left members are advocating for a China-style surveillance state. Good god, what happened to 'British values'?

It is needed to reduce crime rates and ensure civility.
If you have not done anything wrong, you won't have anything to worry about.

Until they redefine done anything wrong.

[Uiiop]

Ian Watkins, disgraced LostProphets singer and violent nonce, has died in a prison attack.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cm2d2me0eljo

A recent report has stated that violence in Wakefield prison has markedly increased in recent months - the BBC article makes the point:

The report from the chief inspector of prisons said: "Many prisoners told us they felt unsafe, particularly older men convicted of sexual offences who increasingly shared the prison with a growing cohort of younger prisoners."

They don't try to build on this comment though.
I'll link the full report from the inspectorate here, but I must insist that you first read this comical "easy read" summary.

In this case, I will play Lingua Ignota in remembrance of those younger prisoners.

[Tinhampton]

Green landlord abolitionism was discussed in the old thread while I was on walkabouts. Interesting as this is, there are various practical reasons why it isn't really possible to end the private rented sector, even in the super-long term when every single person in this thread will have been dead for long enough to have their posts go out of copyright. Some people are moving around enough that they don't want to be tied down to a lengthy contract. (This explains why I have been a renter for ~all of my adult life.) Some people literally have no option but to rent - whether they be students, people getting their first job, self-employed, or just not able to afford the deposit or the mortgage. Many people, even owner-occupiers, still have a very negative perception of council housing. And this is before we even talk about why landlords enter the business in the first instance.

At last count, i.e. a couple of years ago, almost half of private renters and around three-quarters of social renters did not ever expect to buy their own home - not if they have started to save for it or expect to move in the next few years, but if they are thinking about ever becoming a homeowner. Of those that did, 40% of private renters and 70% of social renters had zero savings as of time of asking! Scroll up to section 1.10. This is surprising to most people, as anecdotal evidence would suggest that this figure is large, if not approaching 100%. So there is a need to look out for the situation of renters today, as they will continue to emerge indefinitely, and many will remain in the rental market even after some time.

If we do want to make life easier for renters without fundamentally destroying, or trying to destroy, the private rental industry altogether, I would suggest any of the below:

• Transpose Scots tenancy law into English statute. A single form of contract, no minimum term (i.e. the right to exit your tenancy at any time with four weeks' notice), limited grounds for eviction, and no more than one rent increase per year have all proven their worth as policies - although I think that the Renters Rights Bill is doing most of this.
• Impose council tax on landlords, and not renters. A bulk of the cost would probably be transferred to the renters for exceedingly obvious reasons, but this would be another cost - sometimes a heavy one - off their backs.
• Include the cost of utilities in the rent. This is a bit more of a marginal one. "Warm rents" are common in Germany but rare (although not unknown) here, so it's not like we have no case studies to hand. (Scottish Water bills are also added onto the council tax in Scotland.) This is also another case in which a cost that renters may not notice, or be surprised by, would be bundled into their rent instead. But there is also the small matter of the customer wanting a better-value electricity or gas supplier, wishing to upgrade their internet connection (if that's included), or experiencing massive Energy Price Cap volatility as happened in 2022 - so that would have to be sorted out.
• Whenever a landlord imposes an rent increase above the cost of living, they should be required to explain why. This isn't the same thing as actually capping rent increases - an explanation would just be required alongside the more excessive increases. Rent reviews are often annual, so the year-on-year rate of CPI, annual growth in real pay, or next year's maintenance loan can be easily ascertained. Where they're not, the calculation is obviously a bit more difficult.
  As a case-in-point, I still think a lot about the young lady who talked to the Metro about her very colourful flat in Hove right after the war in Ukraine began, and began by pointing out that the £975/mo rent that had been set for her in 2019 had literally just gone up to £1,054.95/mo. That's an unusual figure - monthly rent is normally stated in intervals of £25 - but also an increase by 8.2% exactly. A quick once-over of the figures would suggest that this was actually a below-inflation increase, but this won't be obvious to the 99.99985% of the country that hasn't memorised this statistic. On the other hand, it's not very likely that an "influencer and vintage clothes seller" will have a reliable income - never mind one that keeps up with inflation - in the same way that the Prime Minister, your child's favourite teacher at school, or even the bartender at your local Wetherspoons has one; take it from another satisfied What I Rent interviewee.
• Redistribute prosperity across the country. All governments have tried to do this, and all have fallen short. There's always a case to be made that the British economy is rigged in favour of L&SE while anyone north of Watford, never mind Watford Gap, is barely seeing any progress in their lives. The more salient point here is that Bristol is the 12th-least-affordable local authority in England to rent in, beaten by eleven of London's thirty-two boroughs. Salaries are relatively a bit lower outside London than inside London, but the cost of housing is relatively much lower.
  There are some roles which, due to being mission-critical, location-sensitive, already unaffordable for the job-holder to leave the city, or otherwise, could never be done outside London - but teachers and the emergency services already discharge fundamentally the same public service everywhere in England. (On a higher level - and speaking from personal experience - managers do typically have the right "soft skills" in enough amounts that they can move between different types of management in different places, even if the exact job title and responsibilities aren't the same.)
• Build more housing for rental, not just ownership, where it's built. There's traditionally been some minimum proportion of affordable housing required in new developments depending on the council (and a presumption of 50% for greenbelt development), but not so much for new rentals more generally. A planned expansion of renting will drive down rental prices and open up more opportunities to people who want to (or have to) rent, especially if there are strong bus services (remember that buses are most of the public transport outside London) - as things stand, it is not every day that a new landlord will emerge in your local area.
  I am not suggesting "build denser housing" as a one-size-fits-all option. This would be a good idea for London and other heavily rent-pressured cities, where supply has been limited for aeons and building up is the most sensible way out. It is probably not an option for the bulk of the country who live in towns, villages, and what we like to call "residential areas," all of whom like their actual honest-to-goodness homes. There are a wide variety of property types in both the rental and ownership markets.
• Ban "No DSS" conditions in tenancy contracts and advertisements. I genuinely thought that late-stage John Major put a stop to this.
• Abolish Employee's National Insurance for renters. HMRC already know where you live, HM Land Registry and friends already know whether you own where you live, and the Home Office already know whether the other people associated with your house are bona-fide outsiders who just turned up one day as opposed to the love interest or children of the owner's family. Employee's NI is the only tax that can really be targeted at renters on a nationwide, efficient, money-in-pockets basis. It's well-known that high income taxes discourage saving and much less well-known that many, perhaps most, renters just aren't saving (even if they are interested in getting on the mythical Housing Ladder, for which they do actually need savings).
  On the macro level, a quick, cheap and dirty estimate would suggest that this should cost £17.5bn, although the actual cost will be less given that the median renter has a lower income than the median person. (Fully two-fifths of the renting population aren't in work due to the larger number of unemployed and retired social renters; almost two-fifths of homeowners aren't due to the sheer number of retirees in their ranks.) On the micro level, someone making £25k-30k at the entry level is liable for £1k-1.5k in National Insurance (per annum) - this is not an insignificant sum.

-----

Some people can't get a mortgage. (The rule of thumb is that you can only borrow 4.5x your income, so you can't buy a property worth more than 5x your income with 10% loan-to-value; on rare occasions, such as Teachers' offer for teachers and Nationwide's offer for first-timers, you can borrow 6x.) Others would genuinely like to move away from renting towards owning, but might not know how best to do so. In an excellent BBC article from this spring, a Suffolk lad related the tale of how he got a property via an "income booster mortgage," through which he added his father's income to his own in order to, more or less, double his salary and make his new place affordable for him to get a mortgage for in the eyes of the lender. If you're already on a mortgage, most lenders will let you port your mortgage to a new property should you wish to move before your forty years are up, but the process is neither well-understood nor well-known.

I could imagine it working out like this in another universe.

• Suppose my mum's making £22,000 as a cleaner. (This was my mum's job IRL. She wasn't earning that much in the 1990s. £22k was, more or less, the average salary for a female cleaner working full-time when data was last collected in April 2024; the total average salary of all cleaners is brought down by the sheer number of part-time workers.)
• I move back in with her after university, get into teaching, make £40,000 per year and keep on saving around a quarter of that because I'd really like my own place eventually. (This wasn't my job IRL. It would have been the salary for a third-year teacher in outer London in 2024/25, rounded down to the nearest thousand.)
• 4.5 x 40,000 isn't anywhere near enough to get somewhere vaguely nice. 4.5 x 62,000 actually is. I run the numbers and work out that I should have just about enough to put down a 10% deposit on a £275,000 flat and just about enough to cover the 90% mortgage when I add my mum's income. (This was the average price in the borough in those days.)
• I secure a ten-year fixed rate mortgage on the place, make more and more money for myself, and then remortgage it some time later - with great success - after I realise that my mum's getting older and I can do everything by myself.
• I then get tapped for the senior leadership of a completely different school halfway across the country, so I port the remaining bit-over-half of my outstanding mortgage over to the new place, get a good discount, hold onto it for much less than I originally thought for that reason, and end up having an actual home for whatever adventures I have further afield.

It is, in principle, possible to get on the housing ladder without ever renting, especially in today's day and age where there is arguably even more choice in the mortgage market than there was when America by Razorlight was top of the Official Charts. It is difficult and objectively requires sacrifices, but it is possible. I don't think it would be popular for that reason, though.

Abolishing the private rental sector will be a permanently hypothetical goal, as discussed above. I don't think we will even come close to achieving it without a "both of the above" approach - building more social housing for people in need, facilitating home ownership by those who may not see themselves as future homeowners any time soon, allowing renters and local authorities to buy out their landlords, and restricting long-term lets like short-term lets (with the caveat that Airbnb regulation is a council issue). If you think this sounds at least somewhat fantastical, you are right.

-----

Since you didn't ask - whenever the subject of moving around gets discussed, my husband tends to think that we would be more than fine if we moved to a one-bedroom flat now that our daughter has moved out and our car's been CAZed out of viability for a while. I tend to think we'd be better off with a house, just in case people visit, because that's what we've been used to, and because I don't normally drive into cities other than non-CAZ Manchester anyway. I've historically won the argument because I've typically moved (or been moved) to suburban-at-best areas where cars are useful, if not essential, and I make enough money for it to make sense. I'll take my husband's advice if I'm ever relocated to anywhere even vaguely near a city centre; I will try and lobby for two bedrooms, though.

It's also worth noting that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland all have a house-price-to-income ratio of around 5x, while England has a ratio of 8x. None of these places are doing any of the things that YIMBY activists want England to do in order to make its houses more affordable. "England" is doing a lot of work in that sentence, as these campaigners keep talking about London and Cambridge. I'm a Croydon girl who went to Cambridge University, spent some time in Waltham Forest, and has a sister who lives and works in central London. I don't think the can-rattling about London is helpful when most of the country doesn't live there, doesn't work there, can't even afford to go there on holiday, and would much rather think about local jobs and local houses for local people. We're a country that opens "banking hubs" in places for no reason other than all the high street banks having literally left the town and then celebrates this as an immeasurably massive step for financial inclusion. These ideas won't help (most of) the people who are already living in flats where there's no room for any further expansion of the block, no outdoor space for accessory dwelling units, and the small matter of getting consent from dozens of people in and around the building before the results of a street vote can even be implemented.

[Tinhampton]

I apologise for the double-post, but here are some non-rent-related things I'd like to say before I forget (I'll be on the road for a good portion of today). Hence the almost-ten edits, for which I'm also sorry for

---

Some of you may know the story of Tanya O'Connell, the tech policy and human rights expert who kept getting inundated with targeted Facebook ads about babies for years after she became pregnant in 2017, until (rather aptly for someone in her line of work) she successfully convinced Facebook a few months ago to make her the only person in the UK to no longer get targeted Facebook ads about anything at all. You won't know it from NSG, however, as her case was never discussed on the last iteration of this thread franchise.

An enterprising member of the BBC's East Midlands investigations team then looked into the case of several other women who suffered from similar Facebook advertising tactics, even after they had lost their baby. Some have left social media together; all are angry about Facebook's Cash for Cookies plan (that's my original misnomer as they want you to pay £2.99/mo to get rid of ads altogether, which like Tanya's lawsuit was assisted by the ICO warning Meta that their original plans - for a more expensive subscription to only get rid of personalised ads - were too much in their own favour). The amazing thing is that the BBC's lead reporter on this case is still getting targeted Facebook ads about pregnancy after having had lost her baby during the first few weeks of lockdown!

A couple of things can be categorically concluded from this. Firstly, there is no longer a stigma around baby loss in the UK. It certainly did exist within living memory and it may still exist in other countries, but it has more or less been eradicated from today's UK. Secondly, you shouldn't stop having any of the suspicions and bad feelings you already have about Facebook; there's always been a lot of scepticism about their use of AI and abuse of human moderators, but creepy targeted ads is a novel area of concern for Facebook watchers worldwide.

For what it's worth, Tanya has said that over ten thousand people have raised complaints with Meta about excessively targeted ads, presumably not only for pregnancy but all matter of stuff. Please stay tuned for more updates - this could be Car Finance 2.0 or this could be a nothingburger - even though court cases can go slowly (it took three years for Meta to settle hers!).

---

In unrelated BBC News, I cannot help but think of the woman who got told by AI that the Newcastle-Bergen ferry, which last set off in 2008, was still in operation, the man who accidentally won £125k on the People's Postcode Lottery after his fiancée told him to cancel his subscription to save money, the political party that wants IndyRef2 if they win a majority at Holyrood next year, or the subeditor who thought that "I was shocked when mum told me what she wants to do with her body when she dies" was an appropriate headline for a typically serious and wide-ranging story about medical and biological research.

---

Can't believe we're only ten pages into this thread and both our far right and far left members are advocating for a China-style surveillance state. Good god, what happened to 'British values'?

I'm surprised that, during this conversation, nobody mentioned that - as a direct result of Prevent and Operation Trojan Horse - every school in England is now required to instil a set of prescribed Fundamental British Values into their students: democracy, rule of law, mutual respect, and tolerance for those of different faiths and beliefs. The Government's guidance is still in force and being actively cited by them elsewhere, such as in the new post-2026 sex education guidance, even though few if any people in education talk about it any more; this was more of a mid-2010s concern.

If you left your house in the morning to find a person waiting for you at the property line who proceeded to follow you around all day, taking notes on everything you did, always waiting for you to leave again when you entered a private space, would you accept that you have no grounds to object to this situation, as you have no expectation of privacy in a public space?

100% this - there's a difference between being in public and being actively surveilled at all times by the security state.

The difference is between being out in the open and being in any vaguely built-up area.

[NewAlbion]

It is needed to reduce crime rates and ensure civility.
If you have not done anything wrong, you won't have anything to worry about.

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

Or Plasticine Action.

Or a blank sign that might get #NotMyKing written on it at some point.

Or a magazine cover talking about the banning of signs reading Palestine Action.

Why is everybody so obsessed with this 'Palestine'?
There is plenty wrong in Britain.

[NewAlbion]

I am sure most of the folk holding up these foreign flags do not spare a thought for the people in those countries, I believe it's all an act to paint themselves with an altruistic brush.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

Or Plasticine Action.

Or a blank sign that might get #NotMyKing written on it at some point.

Or a magazine cover talking about the banning of signs reading Palestine Action.

Why is everybody so obsessed with this 'Palestine'?
There is plenty wrong in Britain.

Because they believe palestine is being oppressed and colonised by Israel.
Never mind the fact there is no state of palestine to even recognise as one is a terror state under hamas and the other is a barely functioning claimed provisional government the palestinian authority.

These people support whoever the current "oppressed" group is in order to be seen by their friends as supportive of the oppressed and weak. This often includes ukraine, LGBTQ+ groups and more recently palestine.

They believe they are helping the palestinians via their protests and actions using words and chants that they believe are just about the Liberation of the Palestinian state but are infact far darker in nature. The main example of this is the from the river to the sea chant which is often calling for the entirety of the Israeli/palestine area to be the state of palestine this means that the state of israel would not exist. The river being the Jordan river and the sea being the Mediterranean sea.

While ultimately they are trying to do the right thing by supporting groups that are being oppressed they forget that the woes of the Palestinian people are often caused by hamas and the PAs actions though they instead focus the entire blame onto israel

As for palestine action they have been classified as a terrorist group therefore by law being affiliated with or supporting a terrorist group is the cause for why the protestors are arrested not because they are protesting in the first place as that is of course perfectly legal.

Frankly palestine does need liberating, from hamas and the PA.
The palestinian people deserve free and independent liberal democracy.

[Sibersky]

That's what they always say.

The problem comes when they re-define what is "wrong". A recent example being anti-terrorism legislation being used to lock up people holding signs that say "Palestine Action".

Or Plasticine Action.

Or a blank sign that might get #NotMyKing written on it at some point.

Or a magazine cover talking about the banning of signs reading Palestine Action.

Why is everybody so obsessed with this 'Palestine'?
There is plenty wrong in Britain.

Because our government is complicit in the genocide of people in Gaza.
Also that entire area is Palestine, Israel is just a fake made up genocide state.

[Kerwa]

I know, that's why I described it like that.

I think any reasonable person would dislike being followed around and monitored by a government agent. It's just easier to not notice CCTV.

So it’s fine, as nobody will notice the CCTV - facial recognition or not - or tracking their location on mobiles. It’s easy, and win-win. I don’t see it as oppression, but rather freedom, freedom from crime and fear.

It’s a digital tracking app that will monitor all your activities and analyze them in real time with “AI”. It’s also tied to benefits and access to services. Apart from the fact AI gets stuff completely wrong all the time, the thought should terrify you because of the way the Horizon IT situation was handled. And this is beyond the fact that the last thing the UK should be doing is building data centers, or paying foreigners to surveille you. Additionally your data will be “anonymized” and sold (lol). Kier has found a way to privatize your very existence.

Apart from that I can see no problem.

[Imperializt Russia]

So it’s fine, as nobody will notice the CCTV - facial recognition or not - or tracking their location on mobiles. It’s easy, and win-win. I don’t see it as oppression, but rather freedom, freedom from crime and fear.

It’s a digital tracking app that will monitor all your activities and analyze them in real time with “AI”. It’s also tied to benefits and access to services. Apart from the fact AI gets stuff completely wrong all the time, the thought should terrify you because of the way the Horizon IT situation was handled. And this is beyond the fact that the last thing the UK should be doing is building data centers, or paying foreigners to surveille you. Additionally your data will be “anonymized” and sold (lol). Kier has found a way to privatize your very existence.

Apart from that I can see no problem.

Well, if it all works, the UK will be worth infinite money.

Are you telling me you wouldn't take a punt on the Mystery Box from that one Simpson's episode?

[NewAlbion]

Why is everybody so obsessed with this 'Palestine'?
There is plenty wrong in Britain.

Because our government is complicit in the genocide of people in Gaza.
Also that entire area is Palestine, Israel is just a fake made up genocide state.

Israel and Palestine are both illegitimate.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Because our government is complicit in the genocide of people in Gaza.
Also that entire area is Palestine, Israel is just a fake made up genocide state.

Israel and Palestine are both illegitimate.

Then who should have the area then?
You cant have the area be stateless.
Also how in the world are both illegitimate iv never had someone say both were before.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Oh this'll be good.