Middle East Crisis: Israel Says Ceasefire In Effect Again

[Mercov]

silly zionists, assuming that because they support creating an ethnostate that means their opposition also support creating an opposite ethnostate

Palestine, as it is most commonly proposed, is basically an "ethno-state." A lot of y'all are basically proposing that everyone in the region become a doctrinaire internationalist liberal or internationalist socialist, which isn't going to happen, or bi-nationalism, which previously failed because neither side wanted to become an ethnic minority. A two-state solution is the centerpiece of all modern peace process frameworks for a reason. That approach involves the creation of two nation-states or, as y'all tend to call them, "ethno-states."

I've seen the main critic of the binational state solution as "it has never worked", but has the two state solution in Palestine worked? Has Israel not been colonizing the west bank, slowly but surely displacing and destroying the Oslo accords. I can think of two binational states that are suffering issues. Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Lebanon. Bosnia is the best argument (I doubt you would be making Lebanon better if you took away mandatory Christian representation and creating a micro christian state), but I'd argue that the model would work well if it weren't for circumstances of it's creation. I do believe a Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian Bi-national state would and has worked better then a division of Bosnia between Croatia and Serbia.

Anyways, a lot of people have compared the Gaza genocide to the holocaust. While there are notable similarities (mainly due to the use of food as a weapon in the genocide, look up the Hunger Plan, it's very grim), I think it's more of a mix of the Cambodian Genocide, the Holodomor and the Bosnian/Kosovar genocide.

I do think we should intervene against Israel. At this point Israel has too much support from the United States to be fully blocked. I think the best way for the EU to counter Israel is to sanction, seize assets, and break the blockade, and dare Israel to attack them. If Israel does attack European states, do small retaliations. Threaten to arrest Israeli leaders more and more. Only promise to stop when Israel withdraws from Gaza and destroys the settlements, then comes to negotiate a better version of the Oslo accords.

[Ifreann]

It wasn't illegal Iraq still had the capability, knowledge, and infrastructure to make WMD's. It also was a genocidal dictatorship.

Japan was a genocidal dictatorship, and has the capability, knowledge, and infrastructure to make WMD's

clearly we need to invade them immediately

I have the capability, knowledge, and infrastructure to make WMDs, give or take a bit of googling and a trip down the shops. And I must warn you all, that if my sovereignty is threatened I will not hesitate to use dubious recipes from the Anarchist Cookbook to make psychedelics from banana peels and transcend space and time as you mere mortals understand it.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

Slavery (abolished through the Civil War and 13th Amendment)

Segregation (legal segregation dismantled via Civil Rights legislation)

Polio epidemic (controlled via vaccine development and distribution)

Great Depression (economic recovery through New Deal programs and WWII mobilization)

Axis powers in WWII (defeated through military victory)

Y2K bug (prevented through widespread code remediation)

Ozone layer depletion (mitigated via participation in Montreal Protocol)

Water pollution (addressed via Clean Water Act and environmental regulation)

Air pollution (significantly reduced via Clean Air Act enforcement)

Leaded gasoline (phased out nationally)

Tobacco advertising to children (banned and heavily regulated)

Monopolies like Standard Oil (broken up through antitrust actions)

Voting rights (expanded through Voting Rights Act and constitutional amendments)

Food safety (improved through FDA regulation and USDA oversight)

Workplace safety (improved via OSHA and labor reforms)

Child labor (largely eliminated through legislation)

Trust-busting (effective in several historical cases)

Banking instability pre-FDIC (addressed through deposit insurance)

Space race (successfully landed on the moon)

Nuclear proliferation (limited via treaties and non-proliferation agreements)

HIV/AIDS awareness and treatment (massively improved access and longevity)

Same-sex marriage rights (legalized nationwide by Supreme Court ruling)

Terrorist threats like Osama bin Laden (neutralized specific threats)

Global financial crisis of 2008 (mitigated with bailouts and reform)

COVID-19 vaccine development (rapid development and rollout)

need more?

Half of these were America’s fault in the first place.

Also, Daemonkin of Corn was probably asking you which Middle Eastern problems the US has solved (none).

These examples are hilarious. Almost ALL of them were America's fault in the first place.

As though middle easterners are fucking stupid and aren't dealing with similar domestic problems and solving them from time to time like everyone else.

The thinly veiled racism is just.. lol

[Lutter]

Half of these were America’s fault in the first place.

Also, Daemonkin of Corn was probably asking you which Middle Eastern problems the US has solved (none).

These examples are hilarious. Almost ALL of them were America's fault in the first place.

As though middle easterners are fucking stupid and aren't dealing with similar domestic problems and solving them from time to time like everyone else.

The thinly veiled racism is just.. lol

buddy how is this racism.

[Sen Bapiro]

These examples are hilarious. Almost ALL of them were America's fault in the first place.

As though middle easterners are fucking stupid and aren't dealing with similar domestic problems and solving them from time to time like everyone else.

The thinly veiled racism is just.. lol

buddy how is this racism.

Dae has a reputation of hating all of America's moves politically.

I do not see a hint of racism, to stay real, a lot of countries had similar problems, and it doesn't make them racist. A lot of countries had segregation, slavery, economic depressions, pollution, etc. Does that make 80% of the world "racist"? It is not America's obligation to fix the Middle East, we try anyways, but when you're fighting with extremists and terrorists, it gets hard to instill peace and democracy.

[Bnei Noah]

Iraq is both propaganda and a colonialist construct. I want the Abbasid Caliphate back, and its rulers should be colorful bisexual men who are terrified of the Turkish mercenaries in their employ, sponsor poetry and music with largesse, who consistently flout Islamic law, and who may or may not have killed a brother or cousin to acquire their position.

Reject modernity, return to tradition.


I maintain that the Iraq War was almost entirely a blunder in decision-making on the part of the Bush administration and that a more level-headed approach to Saddam Hussein's refusal to comply with his treaty obligations would have been more beneficial to American interests. Mind you, he would have been another Bashar al-Assad come the Arab Spring anyway.

I want the Rashidun caliphate back, but a bit more worldwide.
and its leaders should be strong people with strong moral compasses who love death as much as their enemies love life.

good golly this Erdogan fellow gave me some nice books.

Not going to happen.

Arabs have a sense of nationalism and a nation state now. You also have parts of Turkey in that caliphate, and that is a NATO country

[Daemonkin of Corn]

These examples are hilarious. Almost ALL of them were America's fault in the first place.

As though middle easterners are fucking stupid and aren't dealing with similar domestic problems and solving them from time to time like everyone else.

The thinly veiled racism is just.. lol

buddy how is this racism.

"how is implying that middle eastern people are somehow incapable of self governance racism."

[The Democratic Kingdom of Sanadia]

5. Palestine, once emancipated, isn't going to be a liberal or socialist country. It's almost certainly going to be a nationalist and Islamist country with elements of social democracy given the political landscape present in Gaza and the West Bank. It'll be interesting and potentially horrifying to see if they take Gaza's or the West Bank's approach to issues like gender segregation and putting gay people to death.

If they manage to get rid of Hamas after freeing Palestine I doubt it will turn into an Islamist country. Fatah in the West Bank isn't perfect and has done some bad things, but if they manage to control the country, it would certainly be better than an Islamist regime under Hamas.

Hamas would certainly be the best possible government to run a liberated Palestine.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

buddy how is this racism.

Dae has a reputation of hating all of America's moves politically.

I do not see a hint of racism, to stay real, a lot of countries had similar problems, and it doesn't make them racist. A lot of countries had segregation, slavery, economic depressions, pollution, etc. Does that make 80% of the world "racist"? It is not America's obligation to fix the Middle East, we try anyways, but when you're fighting with extremists and terrorists, it gets hard to instill peace and democracy.

America is not and has never ever attempted to *fix* the middle east.

It has only ever acted in it's own interests.

What is racist is the idea that people on the middle east cannot solve their own problems.

[Fahran]

I mean we're an awful long way from a stable two-state solution too, so I'm not sure Wilsonian self-determinationists in glass houses should be throwing stones vis a vis realistically achievable goals

Wilsonian self-determination is basically the one option, barring a paradigm shift within Israel and Palestine, that doesn't require us to re-colonize the place and commit to another nation-building mission in the Middle East or permit one side to successfully complete the ethnic cleansing or subjugation of the other.

I mean I am a liberal internationalist but, I do support a two solution though.

I suspect that's because you realize that the people involved in the ethnic conflict are not liberal internationalists.

[Fahran]

I've seen the main critic of the binational state solution as "it has never worked", but has the two state solution in Palestine worked?

A bi-national solution couldn't work in the context of the Mandate because the Arab leadership categorically refused to accept any arrangement that maintained the Jewish right of return on the grounds that immigration would eventually have resulted in a Jewish majority. The method proposed to circumvent this potentiality by the more far-sighted bi-nationalists, most of whom were Zionists, was the Sharifian Solution or a Middle Eastern confederation, which would have permitted Arabs to remain an absolute majority nationally while permitting a Jewish majority in Israel/Palestine - since both names were regularly used locally.

The problem with a modern bi-nationalist approach is much the same as the problem with the bi-nationalist movement that died in the 1930s. It doesn't account for the actual political behavior of Jews and Arabs in the region, and provides no genuine reassurances of safety or security to whoever becomes an ethnic minority. A two-state solution at least precludes the possibility that people will be stuck as ethnic and thus political minorities in a nation-state setup for the benefit of the ethnic majority.

Has Israel not been colonizing the west bank, slowly but surely displacing and destroying the Oslo accords. I can think of two binational states that are suffering issues.

A lot of the multi-national countries that existed have already been partitioned because they become inherently unstable the minute you don't have a shrewd diplomat or iron-fisted dictator, ideally someone who is both, holding the reins of power.

Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Lebanon. Bosnia is the best argument (I doubt you would be making Lebanon better if you took away mandatory Christian representation and creating a micro christian state), but I'd argue that the model would work well if it weren't for circumstances of it's creation. I do believe a Serbian-Croatian-Bosnian Bi-national state would and has worked better then a division of Bosnia between Croatia and Serbia.

I disagree and believe that it would almost certainly have resulted in the marginalization and persecution of whichever groups wound up in the minority. Again, the reason nationalism has emerged so strongly among both Israelis and Palestinians is because living under the thumb of the ethnic other has been a genuinely horrifying experience for both groups of people and basically every fear they express regarding becoming an ethnic minority in ANY context is legitimate given the history.

Anyways, a lot of people have compared the Gaza genocide to the holocaust. While there are notable similarities (mainly due to the use of food as a weapon in the genocide, look up the Hunger Plan, it's very grim), I think it's more of a mix of the Cambodian Genocide, the Holodomor and the Bosnian/Kosovar genocide.

I'm inclined to compare it more to the Anfal Campaign conducted by Saddam Hussein against the Kurds or, more recently, Ethiopia's genocidal campaign against Tigray, though I would argue the latter is more visceral and brutal given the methods employed against civilians. The Israelis might bomb or shoot you. The Oromo militias will crucify you on a tree and abuse you and then your family in front of you.

It's not a genocide, if only because democide is a different kind of atrocity, but the use of mass starvation as a weapon of war is also somewhat similar to what has been happening in Yemen, where tens of thousands were deliberately starved to death.

I do think we should intervene against Israel. At this point Israel has too much support from the United States to be fully blocked. I think the best way for the EU to counter Israel is to sanction, seize assets, and break the blockade, and dare Israel to attack them. If Israel does attack European states, do small retaliations. Threaten to arrest Israeli leaders more and more. Only promise to stop when Israel withdraws from Gaza and destroys the settlements, then comes to negotiate a better version of the Oslo accords.

I think that full destruction of the settlements, at this point, is an unrealistic demand, barring a complete military collapse by the IDF which would almost certainly lead to genocide and ethnic cleansing of exposed Jewish communities anyway. There's over half a million people living in them, and they represent 15% of the overall population.

Escalating sanctions and a limited degree of intervention are realistic options, but we should temper our expectations and set realistic goals. A halt to settlements, recognition of Palestinian statehood, an eventual Israeli withdraw from Gaza and parts of Mount Hermon, etc. are a realistic starting point. Mind you, I'm skeptical that the EU will even commit to that.

The international community's track record for halting genocides isn't exactly stellar, and, generally, it's military force, locally applied, rather than stern letters that settles matters.

[Fahran]

What is racist is the idea that people on the middle east cannot solve their own problems.

It really depends on the problem and the parameters we set for solving it. Different communities are going to solve similar problems in different ways because they possess different cultures and different mindsets. This strikes me as pretty self-evident. We need only ask an American and a Chinese official how to deal with interracial dating or a median Canadian and a median Saudi how to deal with sexual violence. You'll generally get different answers because different national communities have different political cultures and different paradigms for interacting with the world.

[Northern Socialist Council Republics]

Because y'all have more in common with Zionism on the key issue than you do with them.

I keep telling you this, but in no meaningful sense is the existence of Israel a "key issue". To qualify as a key issue, an issue must be a controversial issue, that is to say, an issue which might plausibly swing in the near-to-medium future because there are interest groups of nontrivial strength behind more than one proposal on that issue.

The actual key issue of the Israel-Palestine question in the Year of Our Lord 2025 is "is it appropriate for the IDF to turn an urban area inhabited by two million people into flat rubble", and despite the efforts of Zionist posters to pretend like they have a consensus, it is pretty clear where the median NSG-er lies on that issue.

"Should Israel exist" is not a key issue because only one answer to that question has any meaningful chance of being realised in the next, oh, 10 years. What it actually is is a rhetorical device designed to split up this camp into infighting so that the minority position on the actually key issue can prevail.

[Fahran]

"Should Israel exist" is not a key issue because only one answer to that question has any meaningful chance of being realised in the next, oh, 10 years. What it actually is is a rhetorical device designed to split up this camp into infighting so that the minority position on the actually key issue can prevail.

Support or opposition for the existence of Israel is the key issue because it's what determines if you're a Zionist or an Anti-Zionist. And, outside of hardline Arab nationalist, Islamist, and tankie circles, that issue was completely resolved in 1948. Half your allies just happen to be dinosaurs and revanchists who want to turn back the clock.

The principal reason for any confusion on this issue is because people who are Zionists and who do not want to destroy Israel as a Jewish nation-state, either because it's not practical or because they have principles that conflict with this objective, have aligned themselves with people who do want to the destroy Israel as Jewish nation-state on a handful of issues that are not determinative of whether one is a Zionist or Anti-Zionist. It's why you, Khardsland, Taosun, and Sanadia all happen to be on the same side despite having radically different positions on whether Israel should exist as a Jewish nation-state or Jews should even be tolerated in the region.

The minute the reasons binding y'all together dissipate infighting, a quiet diminishment of issue salience and dissolution of the political alliance, or substantive changes in y'all's positions on Zionism are going to be the natural result, regardless of anything I have to say on the matter.

You're someone who critically supports Zionism giving critical support to Anti-Zionists because you believe it provides a pathway to minimizing fatalities. The strange, propagandistic efforts to re-define key terms that have had well-established meanings for the past century has been one of the most irritating and alarming aspects of the information war that began on October 7th, 2023.

[Europa Undivided]

If they manage to get rid of Hamas after freeing Palestine I doubt it will turn into an Islamist country. Fatah in the West Bank isn't perfect and has done some bad things, but if they manage to control the country, it would certainly be better than an Islamist regime under Hamas.

Hamas would certainly be the best possible government to run a liberated Palestine.

Yes, and the Ustashe are also the best possible government for Croatia.

[Camtropia]

I mean I am a liberal internationalist but, I do support a two solution though.

I suspect that's because you realize that the people involved in the ethnic conflict are not liberal internationalists.

Two ethno-states and no genocide is better than one sort-of-ethno-state and genocide.

[Camtropia]

US gave the green light to Blair to promote a transitional government in Gaza, per the Times of Israel. Seems like Hamas' time is up.

I slightly mis-read this and thought that Blair was going to lead a transitional government in Gaza.

An act which would probably cause Jeremy Corbyn to spontaneously combust with rage.

BBC News - Tony Blair in discussions to run transitional Gaza authority
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3drmk95xlzo

Oh god oh fuck I was accidently right. Trump actually thinks Blair should run the Gazan government.

[Tillania]

I slightly mis-read this and thought that Blair was going to lead a transitional government in Gaza.

An act which would probably cause Jeremy Corbyn to spontaneously combust with rage.

BBC News - Tony Blair in discussions to run transitional Gaza authority
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3drmk95xlzo

Oh god oh fuck I was accidently right. Trump actually thinks Blair should run the Gazan government.

Can't imagine why anyone in the Middle East could possibly be opposed to him.

[Slembana]

I slightly mis-read this and thought that Blair was going to lead a transitional government in Gaza.

An act which would probably cause Jeremy Corbyn to spontaneously combust with rage.

BBC News - Tony Blair in discussions to run transitional Gaza authority
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3drmk95xlzo

Oh god oh fuck I was accidently right. Trump actually thinks Blair should run the Gazan government.

That’ll go down like a lead balloon.

[Oceasia]

IDF ordered to broadcast Netanyahu’s UN speech to residents of Gaza Strip

It's far from the most evil thing he's done, but it might about to be the loudest display of his megalomania.

Greece backs aid flotilla to Gaza with naval ship providing safe passage

A Greek naval warship has joined the Global Sumud Flotilla attempting to break Israel’s punishing blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The move follows statements by Greece’s Foreign Minister Giorgos Gerapetritis, who confirmed his country will ensure the safe passage of the boats currently in its waters.

Gerapetritis said Athens has informed Israel that Greek citizens are among the dozens of activists on board the flotilla. Italy and Spain also dispatched naval vessels to support the aid boats after repeated attacks, including a drone attack early on Wednesday.

Visual evidence upends Israel’s official story for deadly attack on Gaza hospital

We already know a lot of this, but it's good that Reuters made the effort to investigate the murder of their own journalist.

[Camtropia]

IDF ordered to broadcast Netanyahu’s UN speech to residents of Gaza Strip

It's far from the most evil thing he's done, but it might about to be the loudest display of his megalomania.

Dr Robotnik energy

[Daemonkin of Corn]

What is racist is the idea that people on the middle east cannot solve their own problems.

It really depends on the problem and the parameters we set for solving it. Different communities are going to solve similar problems in different ways because they possess different cultures and different mindsets. This strikes me as pretty self-evident. We need only ask an American and a Chinese official how to deal with interracial dating or a median Canadian and a median Saudi how to deal with sexual violence. You'll generally get different answers because different national communities have different political cultures and different paradigms for interacting with the world.

What is also self evident is that communities are not monolithic and that answers depend on who you ask and where they are on the power structure and what incentives are they working under. There are regressive and ignorant people in every society and there are curious and intelligent people in every society.yes they solve problems in different ways but we are all having a human experience and are all going through a human dialectic. Interventionalist attitudes, ethnocentrism, and western chauvinism isn't going to do any lasting good and instead do lasting harm. Never-ending the simple fact that the very intentions of these forces are not to help.

The idea that American or European elites have the curr to the ailments of the middle East is absolutely a racist idea. They do not even have the cure for their own. My nation made advancements in civil liberties, equity, technology and social dynamics through struggle, exploration, inquiry, and dialogue. Any other culture can do the same in their own way over time and they do.

There is nothing inherently special or superior about our culture. And that is okay. We all have things to learn from each other.


Now that is not say we shouldn't have cross cultural conversations, debate, and exchange. Of course we should. But to use this as an excuse for imperialist interventionism is so so dishonest.

[Bnei Noah]

BiBi’s speaking at the UN today.

[Oceasia]

Contrary to claim by PM’s office, loudspeakers placed inside Gaza, not on Israeli side of border

Contrary to a statement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office, the loudspeakers from which the premier’s UN speech will be broadcast — ostensibly to Gazans — were placed inside the Gaza Strip, and not only on the Israeli side of the border.

The loudspeakers were mounted on trucks and cranes and taken into Gaza, according to testimonies from soldiers and footage. Some of the loudspeakers were brought to army posts, including those several kilometers deep in the Strip.

A reservist is cited by i24 News as saying that they were woken up in the morning for a mission to escort trucks with loudspeakers: “We didn’t know the real reason, they only told us it was to move the population. They asked for it to be as close to the civilians as possible.”

It is unclear if any Gazans will actually be able to hear Netanyahu’s UN speech.

[Ifreann]

Contrary to claim by PM’s office, loudspeakers placed inside Gaza, not on Israeli side of border

Contrary to a statement by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office, the loudspeakers from which the premier’s UN speech will be broadcast — ostensibly to Gazans — were placed inside the Gaza Strip, and not only on the Israeli side of the border.

The loudspeakers were mounted on trucks and cranes and taken into Gaza, according to testimonies from soldiers and footage. Some of the loudspeakers were brought to army posts, including those several kilometers deep in the Strip.

A reservist is cited by i24 News as saying that they were woken up in the morning for a mission to escort trucks with loudspeakers: “We didn’t know the real reason, they only told us it was to move the population. They asked for it to be as close to the civilians as possible.”

It is unclear if any Gazans will actually be able to hear Netanyahu’s UN speech.

Also, they speak a different language there. This is just pathetic.