American Politics: And Iran, Iran So Far Away...

[Kriegsreich of Iron]

You understand that there was a predecessor agency right?

The INS was never as militarized as ICE and did not serve as broad of functions as ICE. Abolish ICE and redistribute their responsibilities to separate agencies.

So you want more bureaucracy and jurisdictional friction?

[Yerachmeal]

Why would it need to be replaced with anything?

ICE was founded in 2003. We functioned just fine without it before. It's a racket, a waste of money. It's a scam to funnel tax payer dollars into the hands of private contractors.

You understand that there was a predecessor agency right?

I was arguing that they should be allowed to. Or more specifically that ice should be allowed to in order to get the illegals the same way the police are allowed to go undercover for their areas. He was addressing that argument whether it should be allowed.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

This administration is like the Reagan administration if Reagan was constantly drunk.

[Pale Dawn]

You understand that there was a predecessor agency right?

The INS was never as militarized as ICE and did not serve as broad of functions as ICE. Abolish ICE and redistribute their responsibilities to separate agencies.

I like IRS to focus on taxes and i like police to focus on non law abiding citizens. Who exactly are you suggesting should be focused on apprehending non citizens who have come here or stayed here without permission?

[Daemonkin of Corn]

You understand that there was a predecessor agency right?

I was arguing that they should be allowed to. Or more specifically that ice should be allowed to in order to get the illegals the same way the police are allowed to go undercover for their areas. He was addressing that argument whether it should be allowed.

Only thing ICE should be "allowed" to do is pack up their shit and go get a real job.

Take their wannabe gestapo asses to North Korea or something.

[Yerachmeal]

Again "...[I]t's for the same reason the Miranda's rights exist simultaneously with ways for the da to attempt to skirt those. It's called balance. As seen with this case here. It didn't work, the people they were attempting to get were warned. The same thing wouldn't happen with a warrant."
That's the reason.

That's not an answer. You're the one who started saying that the police should be allowed to lie their way around requirements for a warrant, why can you can just straightforwardly explain why you want that?

Because it makes it easier to crack down on crime. Remember the point was about ice being allowed to do this to get illegals.
Without a warrant it's easier for the suspects to avoid it, much like how a suspect can stay quiet with a DA, but the DA can attempt to switch them, or like how no one has to tell an underground cop anything. Is this straight forward enough?

[Daemonkin of Corn]

The INS was never as militarized as ICE and did not serve as broad of functions as ICE. Abolish ICE and redistribute their responsibilities to separate agencies.

I like IRS to focus on taxes and i like police to focus on non law abiding citizens. Who exactly are you suggesting should be focused on apprehending non citizens who have come here or stayed here without permission?

Who said anything about the IRS?

And again, just split it back into the Immigration and naturalization service (Which should be an agency dedicated to getting people through the naturalization process as efficiently as possible) and the US Customs service.

We don't need tanks and military equipment for border patrol. We need more judges, clerks, and an easier immigration/naturalization process.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

That's not an answer. You're the one who started saying that the police should be allowed to lie their way around requirements for a warrant, why can you can just straightforwardly explain why you want that?

Because it makes it easier to crack down on crime. Remember the point was about ice being allowed to do this to get illegals.
Without a warrant it's easier for the suspects to avoid it, much like how a suspect can stay quiet with a DA, but the DA can attempt to switch them, or like how no one has to tell an underground cop anything. Is this straight forward enough?

Why should I let a government agency gain increased power to violate constitutional rights to make it "easier to get illegals"?

Why as an American citizen is that worth it for me?

[Kriegsreich of Iron]

I like IRS to focus on taxes and i like police to focus on non law abiding citizens. Who exactly are you suggesting should be focused on apprehending non citizens who have come here or stayed here without permission?

Who said anything about the IRS?

And again, just split it back into the Immigration and naturalization service (Which should be an agency dedicated to getting people through the naturalization process as efficiently as possible) and the US Customs service.

We don't need tanks and military equipment for border patrol. We need more judges, clerks, and an easier immigration/naturalization process.

Sure we do. And the naturalization process is easy enough: I got through it in a few months.

[Pale Dawn]

I like IRS to focus on taxes and i like police to focus on non law abiding citizens. Who exactly are you suggesting should be focused on apprehending non citizens who have come here or stayed here without permission?

Who said anything about the IRS?

And again, just split it back into the Immigration and naturalization service (Which should be an agency dedicated to getting people through the naturalization process as efficiently as possible) and the US Customs service.

We don't need tanks and military equipment for border patrol. We need more judges, clerks, and an easier immigration/naturalization process.

You vaguely said other agencies i was giving examples of who i don't want doing the job.
The naturalization service is focused on the naturalization process. Its when that process is purposefully subverted that we are talking about. I don't care if Customs service takes over the roll but i do want them to be equipped adequately enough to do the job and protect themselves.

[Ifreann]

No, I removed it, because it wasn't relevant.

Again, instead of trying to tell me that my question is like asking a different question, just fucking answer the question. If the police were allowed to lie to get around needing a warrant, what is the point of requiring a warrant?

They're not. That's the answer.

The person I'm addressing in that post thinks they should be. I would have thought that was obvious from following the conversation.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

The INS was never as militarized as ICE and did not serve as broad of functions as ICE. Abolish ICE and redistribute their responsibilities to separate agencies.

So you want more bureaucracy and jurisdictional friction?

Making ICE did not reduce bureaucracy or jurisdictional friction. It just allocated a whole lot of power into the hands of fewer people.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

Who said anything about the IRS?

And again, just split it back into the Immigration and naturalization service (Which should be an agency dedicated to getting people through the naturalization process as efficiently as possible) and the US Customs service.

We don't need tanks and military equipment for border patrol. We need more judges, clerks, and an easier immigration/naturalization process.

You vaguely said other agencies i was giving examples of who i don't want doing the job.
The naturalization service is focused on the naturalization process. Its when that process is purposefully subverted that we are talking about. I don't care if Customs service takes over the roll but i do want them to be equipped adequately enough to do the job and protect themselves.

https://youtu.be/wBhTANU-bX4

They don't need armored vehicles and military uniforms to "do the job and protect themselves".

ICE should not be a paramilitary organization. We already have too many powerful law enforcement agencies as it is.

[Yerachmeal]

Because it makes it easier to crack down on crime. Remember the point was about ice being allowed to do this to get illegals.
Without a warrant it's easier for the suspects to avoid it, much like how a suspect can stay quiet with a DA, but the DA can attempt to switch them, or like how no one has to tell an underground cop anything. Is this straight forward enough?

Why should I let a government agency gain increased power to violate constitutional rights to make it "easier to get illegals"?

Why as an American citizen is that worth it for me?

Because they take up jobs

[Ifreann]

That's not an answer. You're the one who started saying that the police should be allowed to lie their way around requirements for a warrant, why can you can just straightforwardly explain why you want that?

Because it makes it easier to crack down on crime. Remember the point was about ice being allowed to do this to get illegals.
Without a warrant it's easier for the suspects to avoid it, much like how a suspect can stay quiet with a DA, but the DA can attempt to switch them, or like how no one has to tell an underground cop anything. Is this straight forward enough?

It would be easier to just do away with warrants entirely. Let the police enter any premises and arrest any person at any time and for any reason.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

Why should I let a government agency gain increased power to violate constitutional rights to make it "easier to get illegals"?

Why as an American citizen is that worth it for me?

Because they take up jobs

False. They create jobs.

How are jobs created? By needs.

Every migrant that comes to the United States will need a job. Sure. But they will also have NEEDS THAT NEED TO BE MET.

Every migrant will need a house. Who will build it? Every migrant will need groceries. Who will sell them groceries?

The idea that a new person "takes a job" is economically ridiculous. Adding people CREATES jobs. Do you want to reduce births too to "save jobs"? No, that would be silly.

The idea that immigrants take jobs is absolute nonsense.

So why would I as an American citizen support a paramilitary government agency terrorizing my customers, my employees, and my neighbors?

[Pale Dawn]

You vaguely said other agencies i was giving examples of who i don't want doing the job.
The naturalization service is focused on the naturalization process. Its when that process is purposefully subverted that we are talking about. I don't care if Customs service takes over the roll but i do want them to be equipped adequately enough to do the job and protect themselves.

https://youtu.be/wBhTANU-bX4

They don't need armored vehicles and military uniforms to "do the job and protect themselves".

ICE should not be a paramilitary organization. We already have too many powerful law enforcement agencies as it is.

That looks like the FBI. I thought you had a problem with ICE?

Armor and camouflage is often useful if you think you might be facing someone armed which is interesting as the ATF guys were in armor but you didnt seem bothered by that.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

https://youtu.be/wBhTANU-bX4

They don't need armored vehicles and military uniforms to "do the job and protect themselves".

ICE should not be a paramilitary organization. We already have too many powerful law enforcement agencies as it is.

That looks like the FBI. I thought you had a problem with ICE?

Armor and camouflage is often useful if you think you might be facing someone armed.

https://youtu.be/wmwvHyJJr50?list=RDNSf88e76Y2KZw

Here's another clip.

"Armor and camouflage is often useful if you think you might be facing someone armed."

There doesn't have to be an armed conflict to begin with.

[Yerachmeal]

Because they take up jobs

False. They create jobs.

How are jobs created? By needs.

Every migrant that comes to the United States will need a job. Sure. But they will also have NEEDS THAT NEED TO BE MET.

Every migrant will need a house. Who will build it? Every migrant will need groceries. Who will sell them groceries?

The idea that a new person "takes a job" is economically ridiculous. Adding people CREATES jobs. Do you want to reduce births too to "save jobs"? No, that would be silly.

The idea that immigrants take jobs is absolute nonsense.

There are more uninhabited houses than homeless people so no, they are not giving jobs for that. What they are doing is getting underplayed in jobs that should be going to legal citizens.

Also their needs aren't a good thing. If they aren't coming in legally they are likely on the poor side and will take up more welfare.

[Pale Dawn]

"Armor and camouflage is often useful if you think you might be facing someone armed."

There doesn't have to be an armed conflict to begin with.

Unless the person you are detaining shoots at you.

[Yerachmeal]

Because it makes it easier to crack down on crime. Remember the point was about ice being allowed to do this to get illegals.
Without a warrant it's easier for the suspects to avoid it, much like how a suspect can stay quiet with a DA, but the DA can attempt to switch them, or like how no one has to tell an underground cop anything. Is this straight forward enough?

It would be easier to just do away with warrants entirely. Let the police enter any premises and arrest any person at any time and for any reason.

That's too big of a violation. It's too easy for them to get in. In fact that would lead to everyone who's anti police getting arrested. I'm pro police and even I know that.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

False. They create jobs.

How are jobs created? By needs.

Every migrant that comes to the United States will need a job. Sure. But they will also have NEEDS THAT NEED TO BE MET.

Every migrant will need a house. Who will build it? Every migrant will need groceries. Who will sell them groceries?

The idea that a new person "takes a job" is economically ridiculous. Adding people CREATES jobs. Do you want to reduce births too to "save jobs"? No, that would be silly.

The idea that immigrants take jobs is absolute nonsense.

There are more uninhabited houses than homeless people so no, they are not giving jobs for that. What they are doing is getting underplayed in jobs that should be going to legal citizens.

Also their needs aren't a good thing. If they aren't coming in legally they are likely on the poor side and will take up more welfare.

Lmao bruv I'm sorry dude but you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

"There are more uninhabited houses than homeless people so no, they are not giving jobs for that."

An uninhabited House "existing" does not mean that the house is suitable for habitation. Who owns it? Where is it? Is it near a place of employment? Does it have working utilities?
This is a Real Estate problem.

What do you mean "they are not giving jobs for that?"

Do you know how supply and demand works? More people = more demand. Increases in demand drives job growth. That is the most simple economics.

"Also their needs aren't a good thing. If they aren't coming in legally they are likely on the poor side and will take up more welfare"

Illegal migrants do not qualify for most welfare programs.

They do not get Medicaid, Medicare, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF), Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP, or “food stamps”), or Section 8 housing assistance.

Anything they might qualify is most likely going to be a local or state thing.

"What they are doing is getting underplayed in jobs that should be going to legal citizens. "

So make the naturalization process way easier. Do you know how difficult it is to get legal residency in the United States? This is no easy process. Why?

To create this problem to begin with. The whole "migration" issue is mostly manufactured.

[Daemonkin of Corn]

"Armor and camouflage is often useful if you think you might be facing someone armed."

There doesn't have to be an armed conflict to begin with.

Unless the person you are detaining shoots at you.

If ICE needs police back up to serve a legal warrant then they should request that with the local jurisdiction. Just like the IRS would.

[Tarsonis]

Why?

And replaced with what?

Why would it need to be replaced with anything?

ICE was founded in 2003. We functioned just fine without it before. It's a racket, a waste of money. It's a scam to funnel tax payer dollars into the hands of private contractors.

That's incorrect. ICE was not founded in 2003, it was rebranded in 2003. Before that it was INS. It was changed as part of Bush's reshaping the executive branch post 9/11 to combat and prevent terrorism, and certainly had nothing to do with distancing it from images of INS agents kicking the door to abduct Elian Gonzales and send him back to Cuba, (though he's a government official there now, so looks like it worked out for him.)

INS was rebranded in 1933, after merging the Bureau of Immigration and Bureau of Nationalization into a single entity.

We've always had immigration and border enforcement, just for most of the country's existence it hasn't had the resources or means to keep up with western expansion and police the people in those expensive regions. The cause didn't Govnt didn't track births at the state levels until the 1850s, and at the National level until 1903. And before social security, there was no central database of US citizens. But we tamed the frontier (except Alaska) and filled in the edges of the map, so now there's a much more distinct and manageable border to patrol, and technology advanced to the point we can pretty easily keep track of people. The real debate is how to best manage said border and immigration, not that it's like suddenly a new and unnecessary thing.

[Pale Dawn]

Unless the person you are detaining shoots at you.

If ICE needs police back up to serve a legal warrant then they should request that with the local jurisdiction. Just like the IRS would.

Why?
and should the ATF do the same?