Prayer

[Green Street Elite22]

free will like us

Not possible, if god is omniscient.

Yes it is possible. God knows all outcomes, and he changes outcomes for the good of those that love him. But even though he knows the outcome doesn't mean he's going to make us do something. He will direct others to change outcomes. When Jesus was born it was already known that Herod would try to kill the baby. To change the outcome God had an angel tell Joseph to leave the land. Technically God didn't changed the outcome, but didn't impose on free will.

[Galiria]

Not possible, if god is omniscient.

Yes it is possible. God knows all outcomes, and he changes outcomes for the good of those that love him. But even though he knows the outcome doesn't mean he's going to make us do something. He will direct others to change outcomes. When Jesus was born it was already known that Herod would try to kill the baby. To change the outcome God had an angel tell Joseph to leave the land. Technically God didn't changed the outcome, but didn't impose on free will.

So telling people things isn't imposing on free will?

Why didn't God tell people about Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or about any of the other crap then? As long as he doesn't do anything else but warn the people about them, it doesn't impose on free will, right?

[Green Street Elite22]

Who is able to say? Can you tell me? When God gave a 10% rule on how to save the world from hunger, thirst, nakedness, and urge us to love one another. If we are to do these things then such wickedness wouldn't happen. but don't think wickedness goes unnoticed. God judges the wicked before their death. It does not go unnoticed. David disobeyed God. God judged David, and told him that he would live by the sword for the rest of his days. David's own family hunted him down. David hid in caves begging God not to hide His face from Him. David committed adultly and God took away his son. David fasted, but God had made His judgement. God judges the wicked according to the Bible.

So, if he is real, god never forgives? A bit contradictory there.

It is? I don't see how. I never said God doesn't forgive anybody, I just think your tying to get me into a contradiction. Because God judges someone doesn't mean that he doesn't forgive them. If you have a son and he does something wrong and it makes you mad and he says he's sorry, but you discipline in whatever matter doesn't mean you didn't forgive him.

[The Southron Nation]

So, if he is real, god never forgives? A bit contradictory there.

It is? I don't see how. I never said God doesn't forgive anybody, I just think your tying to get me into a contradiction. Because God judges someone doesn't mean that he doesn't forgive them. If you have a son and he does something wrong and it makes you mad and he says he's sorry, but you discipline in whatever matter doesn't mean you didn't forgive him.

Green street, i wonder if buddy there mistakes judgement for consequence?

[Green Street Elite22]

Yes it is possible. God knows all outcomes, and he changes outcomes for the good of those that love him. But even though he knows the outcome doesn't mean he's going to make us do something. He will direct others to change outcomes. When Jesus was born it was already known that Herod would try to kill the baby. To change the outcome God had an angel tell Joseph to leave the land. Technically God didn't changed the outcome, but didn't impose on free will.

So telling people things isn't imposing on free will?

Why didn't God tell people about Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or about any of the other crap then? As long as he doesn't do anything else but warn the people about them, it doesn't impose on free will, right?

Did he not say look out for sheep in wolves clothing? did He not write and tell you there would be tribulations, but fear not He has over comed the world that whosoever may take your body will not take your soul, will not take your heart, will not take your mind?

[Green Street Elite22]

It is? I don't see how. I never said God doesn't forgive anybody, I just think your tying to get me into a contradiction. Because God judges someone doesn't mean that he doesn't forgive them. If you have a son and he does something wrong and it makes you mad and he says he's sorry, but you discipline in whatever matter doesn't mean you didn't forgive him.

Green street, i wonder if buddy there mistakes judgement for consequence?

That may be. It's a fine line of discernment.

[Galiria]

So telling people things isn't imposing on free will?

Why didn't God tell people about Hitler, or Stalin, or Pol Pot, or about any of the other crap then? As long as he doesn't do anything else but warn the people about them, it doesn't impose on free will, right?

Did he not say look out for sheep in wolves clothing? He did he not write and tell you there would be tribulations, but fear not He has over comed the world that whosoever may take your body will not take your soul, will not take your heart, will not take your mind?

Oh right, warning you that there will be trouble in the future is the same as warning you about specific mass-murderers? There will always be trouble in the future, hell I can predict that something bad will happen to someone next year, that doesn't mean I'm super-omniscient and have made super-accurate wonderful prophecies that should form the basis of religions.

If God is omnipotent, it would have been the least of things to pop down and say 'This guy, Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot? Yeah, he's not good, don't believe the crap he says, he'll kill millions.'

[Ceannairceach]

So, if he is real, god never forgives? A bit contradictory there.

It is? I don't see how. I never said God doesn't forgive anybody, I just think your tying to get me into a contradiction. Because God judges someone doesn't mean that he doesn't forgive them. If you have a son and he does something wrong and it makes you mad and he says he's sorry, but you discipline in whatever matter doesn't mean you didn't forgive him.

But God, supposedly, forgives anything if you ask for it and mean it. So if David fasted and truly meant it(as fasting usually shows), then he should have been forgiven and absolved, as one would be were they to repent, no?

[CanuckHeaven]

Just let me assure you that it works for me.

You haven't been very assuring.

You are a skeptic, so it would be difficult for you to accept my assurance.

[Meryuma]

It might be psychologically helpful, but no god consciously answers you.

[Rokartian States]

Wouldn't it have been easier for God to make humans infallible at the moment of creation? Why does he have to punish us for his mistake? If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then he must not care enough to prevent such things from occuring. If God is omniscient and omnibenevolent, then he must not have the power to prevent our sins from occurring. If God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then he must not have had the foresight to know to make us infallible. If God is not omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, then is he really a god?

I don't understand why he would want to make us infallible.

So he wouldn't have the responsibility of punishing us for sins to which we were designed to be vulnerable.

I don't want to be infallible. God did what He did for a greater glory, which you don't seem to understand.

Kindly explain it.

This is a reasoning I heard. Accept or not, but it was interesting.

God created the angels to worship him and to be messengers. Angels are able to see God. Angels were created before us. They are not flesh and bones. Humans do not become angels when they die. They are ministering spirits. Angels seek to see what humans do out of their free will. Angels disguise themselves as humans to be entertain. Angles are a set number that will never be added too and they cannot be destroyed. Angels have always appeared to be adults, males, and fearful. They are stronger than men but not omnipotent. They are greater than man in knowledge, but not omniscient. They are more noble than man, but not omnipresent. Thus far this can be found in the bible. This is what is known.

So God created these creatures and they are able to see him, and he created them with free will like us. We learn later that some angels rebelled and were cast down. Their punishment is far greater then our punishment. Our punishment is death according to the judgement God gave Adam and Eve. "Death" being dormant in the grave. We know God cares because he clothed them, and that he promised the woman a seed that would crush the head of the serpent and save us. (This is what He wanted to do for His glory). He kept the tree of life so that we wouldn't be eternal beings in sin. Eternal being in sin have a far greater punishment.

Fallen angels known as demons cannot die according to the bible. They were created with everlasting life. But the reasoning is that God was able to give them a server punishment in the eternal lake of fire is because they saw him and knew him. The theory is that God told the fallen angles that He would create a creature that would serve him even though they can't see Him, and quite possibly God gave them permission to try to stop them (us) from serving Him. The Word (God) become flesh and died for our sins and conquered the grave ending the time of the fallen angles who were then cast into the eternal lake of fire where they spend eternity. And God saved us from our punishment of death (being dormant in the grave). When we die we automatically transition over to everlasting life with Him.

Why does God need to punish anybody at all? Why does not give us all salvation? Is he incapable? Is he ignorant? Is he apathetic? Is he even a god?

....So if this is so I would say your argument is invalid. What punishment are you talking about when God took care of it?

The punishment of an eternity in Hell, of being forced to die a gruesome death, or being forced to live in a world of atrocities.

Apologies for grammar errors. I've caught a few, but may have a few more.

No need to apologize. Grammatical errors have no impact on arguments, so I don't mind.

So it was the 9/11 victims' fault that they were killed?

Who is able to say? Can you tell me? When God gave a 10% rule on how to save the world from hunger, thirst, nakedness, and urge us to love one another. If we are to do these things then such wickedness wouldn't happen. but don't think wickedness goes unnoticed. God judges the wicked before their death. It does not go unnoticed. David disobeyed God. God judged David, and told him that he would live by the sword for the rest of his days. David's own family hunted him down. David hid in caves begging God not to hide His face from Him. David committed adultly and God took away his son. David fasted, but God had made His judgement. God judges the wicked according to the Bible.

But why must God punish us for our sins? Why can he not forgive us? Why did he make is so vulnerable to temptation in the first place?

[CanuckHeaven]

It always calms me.

I mean for someone else. You as in anyone. Like when I prayed for safety, and yet it was the barney song that calmed me to sleep. Or when I prayed for my father to quit things, and yet it didn't happen until he was forced to by the law.

I pray for others and I have seen some amazing things happen, but ultimately, I finish my prayers with Thy will not mine be done.

[Kreigan]

Hello, people of Earth! My name is Gagatron, and I have a very interesting topic for you today. This is directed to anybody and everybody.

Have you ever prayed? If so, what benefits did it bring? Who did you pray to? How did you pray? How many prayer experiences have you had?

Let the multi-religious discussion begin.

When I used to be christian I prayed and it did nothing

[Ceannairceach]

I mean for someone else. You as in anyone. Like when I prayed for safety, and yet it was the barney song that calmed me to sleep. Or when I prayed for my father to quit things, and yet it didn't happen until he was forced to by the law.

I pray for others and I have seen some amazing things happen, but ultimately, I finish my prayers with Thy will not mine be done.

You obviously aren't understanding. I mean when someone else, other than you, prays, and nothing happens. No fulfilled feelings. No results whatsoever. How can you explain this?

[Kreigan]

Praying is a waste of time and contradicts the Free will rule god has. Praying for someone to get better from an illness is stupid if you beleive in god considering him intervening would be messing with free will just like why he wont just come down and take away evil because of free will. So dotn waste your time praying and then going "Oh my, so and so has recovered! God must have done it!" Because theres plenty of other people in the same position who didnt recover just like I had a christian tell me when he prayed for his car to start it started meaning god did it. When I brought up how god will do that but not help someone being raped or someone whos poor he didnt respond...typical religous person.

[Green Street Elite22]

Did he not say look out for sheep in wolves clothing? He did he not write and tell you there would be tribulations, but fear not He has over comed the world that whosoever may take your body will not take your soul, will not take your heart, will not take your mind?

Oh right, warning you that there will be trouble in the future is the same as warning you about specific mass-murderers? There will always be trouble in the future, hell I can predict that something bad will happen to someone next year, that doesn't mean I'm super-omniscient and have made super-accurate wonderful prophecies that should form the basis of religions.

If God is omnipotent, it would have been the least of things to pop down and say 'This guy, Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot? Yeah, he's not good, don't believe the crap he says, he'll kill millions.'

The early church was warned about the man of lawlessness whose number was 666 that some believed was Nero since the bible also said the man of lawlessness killed his mother, such as Nero did. The bible warned about this, and 60-100 million people died, many of whom were Christians that did believe that Nero was the man of lawlessness. There were warnings, but millions still died. God didn't like it, but many accepted their deaths as recorded in Foxes book of Martyes and Josephious.

The least he could do is pop down? What is the Holy Ghost for?? Have you not strived for the gift of knowledge so you will know that which effects the kingdom of God? He will not give that which you do not seek.

[Galiria]

Oh right, warning you that there will be trouble in the future is the same as warning you about specific mass-murderers? There will always be trouble in the future, hell I can predict that something bad will happen to someone next year, that doesn't mean I'm super-omniscient and have made super-accurate wonderful prophecies that should form the basis of religions.

If God is omnipotent, it would have been the least of things to pop down and say 'This guy, Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot? Yeah, he's not good, don't believe the crap he says, he'll kill millions.'

The early church was warned about the man of lawlessness whose number was 666 that some believed was Nero since the bible also said the man of lawlessness killed his mother, such as Nero did. The bible warned about this, and 60-100 million people died, many of whom were Christians that did believe that Nero was the man of lawlessness. There were warnings, but millions still died. God didn't like it, but many accepted their deaths as recorded in Foxes book of Martyes and Josephious.

I believe common consent amongst biblical scholars now is that the number is actually 616. And seriously, you're claiming that Nero killed 60-100 million people? Just for the record, that's more than the two World Wars combined.

The least he could do is pop down? What is the Holy Ghost for?? Have you not strived for the gift of knowledge so you will know that which effects the kingdom of God? He will not give that which you do not seek.

So basically God won't warn us when there's a genocidal maniac about to kill millions of his beloved creatures because 'he won't give us that which we do not seek'? This is like a mother refusing to warn her child that jumping into a fire is dangerous because she 'won't give the kid that which he does not seek'. You do claim that he warned Joseph about Herod, so it's fine to warn a man about danger to a single baby, but wrong to warn people about danger to entire races or millions of peoples?

[Kreigan]

Oh right, warning you that there will be trouble in the future is the same as warning you about specific mass-murderers? There will always be trouble in the future, hell I can predict that something bad will happen to someone next year, that doesn't mean I'm super-omniscient and have made super-accurate wonderful prophecies that should form the basis of religions.

If God is omnipotent, it would have been the least of things to pop down and say 'This guy, Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot? Yeah, he's not good, don't believe the crap he says, he'll kill millions.'

The early church was warned about the man of lawlessness whose number was 666 that some believed was Nero since the bible also said the man of lawlessness killed his mother, such as Nero did. The bible warned about this, and 60-100 million people died, many of whom were Christians that did believe that Nero was the man of lawlessness. There were warnings, but millions still died. God didn't like it, but many accepted their deaths as recorded in Foxes book of Martyes and Josephious.

The least he could do is pop down? What is the Holy Ghost for?? Have you not strived for the gift of knowledge so you will know that which effects the kingdom of God? He will not give that which you do not seek.

Yea and in Maco Texas during the 80's some nutjob went to israel, to the supposed holy land of which when he came back he thought he was the lamb of god and used it to have sex with members of his cult and he also had them get weapons since jesus says to sell everything you own and get a weapon. They then had a shoot out with ATF and 4 agents were killed and the man blew up the building killing all 76 of the people...and he truly beleived god told him to do that and even said god talked with him about him being the prophet when the apocalypse would break out, he said god told him all of this while he was in israel. And many others have done the same claiming god told them to so dont give me that holy ghost nonsense.

[CanuckHeaven]

I pray for others and I have seen some amazing things happen, but ultimately, I finish my prayers with Thy will not mine be done.

You obviously aren't understanding. I mean when someone else, other than you, prays, and nothing happens. No fulfilled feelings. No results whatsoever. How can you explain this?

How can I possibly speak for other people? I can only relate my personal experiences. As far as you praying for your father and nothing happened could depend on a variety of reasons, especially if he was doing something that was criminal.

[Ceannairceach]

You obviously aren't understanding. I mean when someone else, other than you, prays, and nothing happens. No fulfilled feelings. No results whatsoever. How can you explain this?

How can I possibly speak for other people? I can only relate my personal experiences. As far as you praying for your father and nothing happened could depend on a variety of reasons, especially if he was doing something that was criminal.

I'm not sure I understand. How does doing something criminal factor into it? To be clear and open, it wasn't criminal inherently. More so drinking lead to a small acident whilst driving. Meh. What I want to ask is why your prayers are "answered", and yet others are not.

[Rokartian States]

The early church was warned about the man of lawlessness whose number was 666 that some believed was Nero since the bible also said the man of lawlessness killed his mother, such as Nero did. The bible warned about this, and 60-100 million people died, many of whom were Christians that did believe that Nero was the man of lawlessness. There were warnings, but millions still died. God didn't like it, but many accepted their deaths as recorded in Foxes book of Martyes and Josephious.

The least he could do is pop down? What is the Holy Ghost for?? Have you not strived for the gift of knowledge so you will know that which effects the kingdom of God? He will not give that which you do not seek.

Yea and in Maco Texas during the 80's some nutjob went to israel, to the supposed holy land of which when he came back he thought he was the lamb of god and used it to have sex with members of his cult and he also had them get weapons since jesus says to sell everything you own and get a weapon. They then had a shoot out with ATF and 4 agents were killed and the man blew up the building killing all 76 of the people...and he truly beleived god told him to do that and even said god talked with him about him being the prophet when the apocalypse would break out, he said god told him all of this while he was in israel. And many others have done the same claiming god told them to so dont give me that holy ghost nonsense.

In addition, the Waco incident is what motivated the second largest terrorist attack on American soil to date.

[Green Street Elite22]

It is? I don't see how. I never said God doesn't forgive anybody, I just think your tying to get me into a contradiction. Because God judges someone doesn't mean that he doesn't forgive them. If you have a son and he does something wrong and it makes you mad and he says he's sorry, but you discipline in whatever matter doesn't mean you didn't forgive him.

But God, supposedly, forgives anything if you ask for it and mean it. So if David fasted and truly meant it(as fasting usually shows), then he should have been forgiven and absolved, as one would be were they to repent, no?

Search a concordance for this chapter. It truly is a sad story. David fasted for seven days, and when his son passed he ended his fast, but its so odd that he didn't abandon God. but David understood something I or you didn't and it was just answered to me!

Okay imagine being David. There was no Savior yet, and God's people were under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death, or "sin and consequences (discipline of God)". Sin is paid for by death, for the wages of sin is death. David needed atonement for his sin. David asked for forgiveness but under the first agreement Death is needed for forgiveness. God forgave David because of David's repentance, though David and his family had to pay the price to obtain this forgiveness. I don't know why God choose to take the life of David's son? Maybe typology or David, but its not recorded in the Bible.

Me and you are under the first agreement and Jesus paid the price of Death so that we wouldn't have to experience that. We are blessed and should be thankful that we won't have to face such things. I hope this helps a little more.

[Kreigan]

I mean for someone else. You as in anyone. Like when I prayed for safety, and yet it was the barney song that calmed me to sleep. Or when I prayed for my father to quit things, and yet it didn't happen until he was forced to by the law.

I pray for others and I have seen some amazing things happen, but ultimately, I finish my prayers with Thy will not mine be done.

Oh really and please elaborate on these experiences Im curious.

[Kreigan]

But God, supposedly, forgives anything if you ask for it and mean it. So if David fasted and truly meant it(as fasting usually shows), then he should have been forgiven and absolved, as one would be were they to repent, no?

Search a concordance for this chapter. It truly is a sad story. David fasted for seven days, and when his son passed he ended his fast, but its so odd that he didn't abandon God. but David understood something I or you didn't and it was just answered to me!

Okay imagine being David. There was no Savior yet, and God's people were under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death, or "sin and consequences (discipline of God)". Sin is paid for by death, for the wages of sin is death. David needed atonement for his sin. David asked for forgiveness but under the first agreement Death is needed for forgiveness. God forgave David because of David's repentance, though David and his family had to pay the price to obtain this forgiveness. I don't know why God choose to take the life of David's son? Maybe typology or David, but its not recorded in the Bible.

Me and you are under the first agreement and Jesus paid the price of Death so that we wouldn't have to experience that. We are blessed and should be thankful that we won't have to face such things. I hope this helps a little more.

Why is death NEEDED for forgiveness? DOes god follow some kind of rules? Because if so then that would mean hes not the creator of everything and therefor answers to someone. Also why must there be death for forgiveness? Doesnt sound like an all loving god to me.

[Ceannairceach]

Search a concordance for this chapter. It truly is a sad story. David fasted for seven days, and when his son passed he ended his fast, but its so odd that he didn't abandon God. but David understood something I or you didn't and it was just answered to me!

Okay imagine being David. There was no Savior yet, and God's people were under the Law of Moses, the law of sin and death, or "sin and consequences (discipline of God)". Sin is paid for by death, for the wages of sin is death. David needed atonement for his sin. David asked for forgiveness but under the first agreement Death is needed for forgiveness. God forgave David because of David's repentance, though David and his family had to pay the price to obtain this forgiveness. I don't know why God choose to take the life of David's son? Maybe typology or David, but its not recorded in the Bible.

Me and you are under the first agreement and Jesus paid the price of Death so that we wouldn't have to experience that. We are blessed and should be thankful that we won't have to face such things. I hope this helps a little more.

Why is death NEEDED for forgiveness? DOes god follow some kind of rules? Because if so then that would mean hes not the creator of everything and therefor answers to someone. Also why must there be death for forgiveness? Doesnt sound like an all loving god to me.

I must agree. God isn't exactly fair if he condemns all sinners to the same fate, no matter the sin, in the old testament. It also isn't fair for anyone to cast crimes onto another. Of course, this is all hypothetical to me, but still...