2023-25 Israel-Hamas war

[Great Britain-and Northern Ireland]

Blimey, that’s a bit of a sweeping statement, isn’t it? The whole situation’s a right mess, but you can’t just slap labels on people like that. There’s a lot of history and nuance involved—it’s not as straightforward as it might seem, old chap.

Ok please stop playing this character, it’s unbearable. Almighty Trump is less infuriating.

Blimey, no need to go overboard, old chap. If it’s not your cup of tea, fair enough, but no need to get all worked up. Everyone’s got their own opinions, don’t they? Just take a breather.

[Spiritus Republic]

your cousin isn't being called a war criminal is he?

I'm not saying he is, I'm saying he is part of a army doing war crimes.
I've been called a war criminal, to be fair by someone in Da'esh.

idk it REALLY seems to sound like that

your cousin isn't being called a war criminal is he?

It's a stupid argument. He knows it's a stupid argument too.

I'd just step away if you're upset. No sense in flaming anyone over them being wrong on the internet.

yeah if it keeps up I might...thx

[Gravlen]

Snip

Gravlen, you know full well that tens of thousands of small fish in Israel and Palestine aren't going to credibly be accused of genocide simply for being conscripted or being part of a civilian lynch mob.

The lack of criminal accountability doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

[Mercov]

*She, I have it in my bio.

I was talking about the penguin.

I thought everything was about me, you wound me.

I'm not saying he is, I'm saying he is part of a army doing war crimes.
I've been called a war criminal, to be fair by someone in Da'esh.

idk it REALLY seems to sound like that

Sorry if that is what it sounded like, it was not my intention.
You know, and I dunno if this will make you feel better, but I have met someone who was part of the Whermacht. He was a child when he was, part of the Hitlerjugen deployed at the end of the war. He was a good person, he died of cancer last November.
I don't mean to stress you out, take your time or ignore me, I'll stop harping on this point.

[Gravlen]

*She, I have it in my bio.

I was talking about the penguin.

The Penguin is quite serious, and maintains that any soldier who's taking active part in a genocide is... actively taking part in a genocide.

It's not really such a shocking concept when you think about it.

The guys who ran the trains to the concentration camps might never have killed anyone themselves, but they were an active and necessary part of the Holocaust. They escaped accountability, but they bore responsibility.

[Spiritus Republic]

I was talking about the penguin.

I thought everything was about me, you wound me.

idk it REALLY seems to sound like that

Sorry if that is what it sounded like, it was not my intention.
You know, and I dunno if this will make you feel better, but I have met someone who was part of the Whermacht. He was a child when he was, part of the Hitlerjugen deployed at the end of the war. He was a good person, he died of cancer last November.
I don't mean to stress you out, take your time or ignore me, I'll stop harping on this point.

nah its fine, i guess after being harassed online so much i get way too defensive, my bad

I was talking about the penguin.

The Penguin is quite serious, and maintains that any soldier who's taking active part in a genocide is... actively taking part in a genocide.

It's not really such a shocking concept when you think about it.

The guys who ran the trains to the concentration camps might never have killed anyone themselves, but they were an active and necessary part of the Holocaust. They escaped accountability, but they bore responsibility.

my cousin kills HAMAS fighters and collects weapons stashes, nothing criminal about it

[Fahran]

That's a difficult one to answer, since Palestine isn't a state. Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Arguably yes, in te sense that there exists to separate Palestinian states at the same time, one in the West Bank and one in Gaza, the latter ruled by Hamas. So they probably can't be separated.

I wasn't expecting you to answer with a roundabout yes. I'm not certain I would have arrived at the same conclusion.

Yeah, I figured I'd make it clearer for you since you had an issue with comparing "an entire country throughout its entire history" to the other ones. I thought I was clear that I was talking about Israel which is currently engaged in genocide, but I added "under Nethanyahu" for your convenience.

Hitler tops the list. Quite easily. Full extermination of multiple groups across a broad range.

Bagosora is probably next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range.

Hamas is next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range and imposition of a system of apartheid within their own group.

Karazic is next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range.

Netanyahu is next. Partial extermination of a single group within a particular geographical range and continuous ethnic cleansing and apartheid against the remainder of that group.

Xi is next. Partial extermination of a single group and continuous ethnic cleansing and apartheid against the remainder of that group.

If we look solely at numbers, it changes. If we look at things beyond genocide, it changes.

[Mercov]

nah its fine, i guess after being harassed online so much i get way too defensive, my bad

Its all good. Being in this environment, the internet, leaves you open to a lot of abuse. I'm called slurs weekly, and I can't say it did not hurt, but its something you...adapt to. Stay safe. I'll stop threadjacking.

[Gravlen]

I'm not saying he is, I'm saying he is part of a army doing war crimes.
I've been called a war criminal, to be fair by someone in Da'esh.

idk it REALLY seems to sound like that

In case it was unclear, I am saying that your cousin, as a soldier in the IDF in Gaza, where the Israeli armed forces are carryiing out a genocide, is complicit in the genocide.

Whether or not he could be punished under the genocide convention depends on his intent, which I cannot say anything about. But whether or not they are a war criminal, they share responsibility because they are complicit in what's happening.

Any Hamas operative who stormed into Israel on October 7th shared responsibility as well, even if they didn't kill any civilians. You don't get to duck responsibility when you're taking part in the attacks, or directly supporting the ones who do.

[Gravlen]

That's a difficult one to answer, since Palestine isn't a state. Depends on how you look at it, I suppose. Arguably yes, in te sense that there exists to separate Palestinian states at the same time, one in the West Bank and one in Gaza, the latter ruled by Hamas. So they probably can't be separated.

I wasn't expecting you to answer with a roundabout yes. I'm not certain I would have arrived at the same conclusion.

Yeah, I figured I'd make it clearer for you since you had an issue with comparing "an entire country throughout its entire history" to the other ones. I thought I was clear that I was talking about Israel which is currently engaged in genocide, but I added "under Nethanyahu" for your convenience.

Hitler tops the list. Quite easily. Full extermination of multiple groups across a broad range.

Bagosora is probably next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range.

Hamas is next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range and imposition of a system of apartheid within their own group.

Karazic is next. Full extermination of a single group within a geographical range.

Netanyahu is next. Partial extermination of a single group within a particular geographical range and continuous ethnic cleansing and apartheid against the remainder of that group.

Xi is next. Partial extermination of a single group and continuous ethnic cleansing and apartheid against the remainder of that group.

If we look solely at numbers, it changes. If we look at things beyond genocide, it changes.

Well thanks for playing along. I think it's silly to have such a list, and I still do, even if you have made a credible attempt to rank them.

[Fahran]

The lack of criminal accountability doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

A guy waltzing about on the ground in Gaza hasn't been party to genocide by any reasonable interpretation of the law or rudimentary ethics.

Well thanks for playing along. I think it's silly to have such a list, and I still do, even if you have made a credible attempt to rank them.

I mean... genocide is evil and criminal regardless. But, if folks want to play the comparison game, it's possible to play the comparison game. Realistically, we shouldn't, but here we are.

Any Hamas operative who stormed into Israel on October 7th shared responsibility as well, even if they didn't kill any civilians. You don't get to duck responsibility when you're taking part in the attacks, or directly supporting the ones who do.

I'm not certain I would agree with this either.

Accusing the IDF or Hamas of committing genocide makes sense. Accusing every singular member? That stretches credibility a little bit.

[Gravlen]

The Penguin is quite serious, and maintains that any soldier who's taking active part in a genocide is... actively taking part in a genocide.

It's not really such a shocking concept when you think about it.

The guys who ran the trains to the concentration camps might never have killed anyone themselves, but they were an active and necessary part of the Holocaust. They escaped accountability, but they bore responsibility.

my cousin kills HAMAS fighters and collects weapons stashes, nothing criminal about it

Depends on how they're collecting the weapons. And whether they're actually Hamas fighters. And whether they're armed or have surrendered.

[Khardsland]

IGF soldiers are Nazis. Don't take it from me, take it from the soldiers!

[The Lazarene Republic]

Question (and I’m comparing this to killing Hamas militants based on the WW2 analogy): Was it always wrong for to kill Soviet soldiers in WW2 after the Nazi-Soviet alliance ruptured? There were certainly cases where the Bolsheviks represented a similarly genocidal and totalitarian enemy as the Nazis, but on the whole, they were the lesser evil. Though I suppose, in the example of Hamas, it would be salient to add that defense of Israeli civilians is obviously permissible.

[Ifreann]

Though they did invent the SodaStream and the Desert Eagle, so really, who can say who the villains are?

Getting bold with the racism, I see.

You out here making tier lists of who's the most evil do not have any standing to say shit.

[Gravlen]

The lack of criminal accountability doesn't absolve them of responsibility.

A guy waltzing about on the ground in Gaza hasn't been party to genocide by any reasonable interpretation of the law or rudimentary ethics.

"A guy"?

I'm talking about military personel, making it possible for the genocide to be carried out.

Any Hamas operative who stormed into Israel on October 7th shared responsibility as well, even if they didn't kill any civilians. You don't get to duck responsibility when you're taking part in the attacks, or directly supporting the ones who do.

I'm not certain I would agree with this either.

You're free to disagree, but the case law seems clear that the sticking point here is the question of intent, not complicity.

[Mercov]

Question (and I’m comparing this to killing Hamas militants based on the WW2 analogy): Was it always wrong for to kill Soviet soldiers in WW2 after the Nazi-Soviet alliance ruptured? There were certainly cases where the Bolsheviks represented a similarly genocidal and totalitarian enemy as the Nazis, but on the whole, they were the lesser evil.

From the perspective of the Wehrmacht? If you are a Wehrmacht soldier?

[Khardsland]

Question (and I’m comparing this to killing Hamas militants based on the WW2 analogy): Was it always wrong for to kill Soviet soldiers in WW2 after the Nazi-Soviet alliance ruptured? There were certainly cases where the Bolsheviks represented a similarly genocidal and totalitarian enemy as the Nazis, but on the whole, they were the lesser evil. Though I suppose, in the example of Hamas, it would be salient to add that defense of Israeli territory is obviously permissible.

A completely laughable premise. The "alliance" was merely a simple NAP signed as a last resort after the UK and France shot down Stalin's proposal to establish a Collective Security Pact. Also, "genocidal and totalitarian" means overrepresenting religious minorities within elected bodies by a factor of 10x and simply begging aristocrats to pay their taxes for once, I guess...

[The Lazarene Republic]

Question (and I’m comparing this to killing Hamas militants based on the WW2 analogy): Was it always wrong for to kill Soviet soldiers in WW2 after the Nazi-Soviet alliance ruptured? There were certainly cases where the Bolsheviks represented a similarly genocidal and totalitarian enemy as the Nazis, but on the whole, they were the lesser evil.

From the perspective of the Wehrmacht? If you are a Wehrmacht soldier?

Mainly in cases of national self-defense mounted against Russian imperialism, like Finland. The analogy is kind of falling apart but I guess the premise kinda applies to either side: if you can join fight for an incredibly evil organization to counter a comparable threat posed by their enemies.

[Mercov]

From the perspective of the Wehrmacht? If you are a Wehrmacht soldier?

Mainly in cases of national self-defense mounted against Russian imperialism, like Finland. The analogy is kind of falling apart but I guess the premise kinda applies to either side: if you can join an incredibly evil organization to counter a threat posed by their enemies.

I generally support Finland in that war, the Soviet Union was invading just because the allies were distracted. I think its fine to resist invasion, yea. But I don't think Finland should have launched the continuation war, they should have stayed neutral. Same reason I oppose the USSR doing Molotov-Ribbentrop, Finland should have just...stayed neutral.

[The Lazarene Republic]

Question (and I’m comparing this to killing Hamas militants based on the WW2 analogy): Was it always wrong for to kill Soviet soldiers in WW2 after the Nazi-Soviet alliance ruptured? There were certainly cases where the Bolsheviks represented a similarly genocidal and totalitarian enemy as the Nazis, but on the whole, they were the lesser evil. Though I suppose, in the example of Hamas, it would be salient to add that defense of Israeli territory is obviously permissible.

A completely laughable premise. The "alliance" was merely a simple NAP signed as a last resort after the UK and France shot down Stalin's proposal to establish a Collective Security Pact. Also, "genocidal and totalitarian" means overrepresenting religious minorities within elected bodies by a factor of 10x and simply begging aristocrats to pay their taxes for once, I guess...

Russian Hitler’s strongest soldier

[Spiritus Republic]

my cousin kills HAMAS fighters and collects weapons stashes, nothing criminal about it

Depends on how they're collecting the weapons. And whether they're actually Hamas fighters. And whether they're armed or have surrendered.

they are all HAMAS fighters, I've watched the footage he sends, they're all armed, and they don't surrender, although a few drop their weapons and run sometimes, they are still considered combatants

[Pheonixknight]

Depends on how they're collecting the weapons. And whether they're actually Hamas fighters. And whether they're armed or have surrendered.

they are all HAMAS fighters, I've watched the footage he sends, they're all armed, and they don't surrender, although a few drop their weapons and run sometimes, they are still considered combatants

Your brother fucking fires on unarmed people who are actively running away????

[Spiritus Republic]

they are all HAMAS fighters, I've watched the footage he sends, they're all armed, and they don't surrender, although a few drop their weapons and run sometimes, they are still considered combatants

Your brother fucking fires on unarmed people who are actively running away????

*cousin

and they don't shoot if the fighters have dropped their weapons without firing a shot

however he says if they shoot and then flee, they're clear to be fired on

[Kupirijo]

why cant they just not fight