Islamism- Not that bad?

[Unogonduria]

And what was a Muslim army doing outside Vienna, exactly?

Liberating it.

I say this unironically; western esp. Anglo-French colonialism is the worst thing to ever happen in history. Anything to displace European Christian hegemony is a positive; both World Wars would have been avoided as well as the present Middle Eastern conflicts.

Should've let the Ottomans march on to London; then N.A.T.O. would not exist.

There was no Anglo-Saxons in Vienna in 1683. This was an Austrian Empire.
"Liberating" you're speaking such nonsense that USA coming to "liberate" and "democratize" various nations is making me think that indeed, it was liberating them

[Fahran]

funny how crusading imperialist powers always seem to have really nice fluffy reasons for their conquering, almost like it helps them justify their actions and rally more soldiers to the cause.

On a fundamental level, I'm convinced a certain subsection of people do not understand how empires emerge or how they function. There's always moral justifications or moral pretenses, and, to a very significant degree, imperialism is what happens when a polity begins to amass political, economic, and military power at the expense of its neighbors, even if this isn't the result of a grand geopolitical strategy.

There was no Anglo-Saxons in Vienna in 1683. This was an Austrian Empire.
"Liberating" you're speaking such nonsense that USA coming to "liberate" and "democratize" various nations is making me think that indeed, it was liberating them

If anything, the American argument is somewhat stronger, especially with regard to Iraq. Saddam Hussein was a deeply unpopular and despotic ruler who committed multiple acts of genocide against his own people and he was replaced by a government that, while extremely corrupt, is more representative of the Iraqi people as a whole. Still wouldn't advise going on foreign adventures that require social reform or institution building when we can barely manage that at home.

[Unogonduria]

Liberating it.

If your idea of "liberation" is something akin to what happened to the Balkans during the Ottoman times, then I simply have no words for you. We were truly free when we had strong Balkan countries, not under religious oppression and taking 1/5 of our sons for the army, and then there's a possibility they'd later kill their own families. Forceful conversions and raping our wives and daughters is not liberation either, at least I hope you recognize that.

[Eahland]

Liberating it.

If your idea of "liberation" is something akin to what happened to the Balkans during the Ottoman times, then I simply have no words for you. We were truly free when we had strong Balkan countries, not under religious oppression and taking 1/5 of our sons for the army, and then there's a possibility they'd later kill their own families. Forceful conversions and raping our wives and daughters is not liberation either, at least I hope you recognize that.

Dude unironically supports the genocide of Ukraine by Russia to "save" them from "NATO imperialism". There is absolutely nothing beneath him.

[Vorstadt]

islamism is the most despicable ideology to ever exist

[The Lazarene Republic]

BC and WEK: do you support the establishment of a sovereign Islamist state in Xinjiang/East Turkestan if it means a violent struggle against the PRC backed by the US?

[The Lazarene Republic]

islamism is the most despicable ideology to ever exist

Worse than Nazism?

[Unogonduria]

If your idea of "liberation" is something akin to what happened to the Balkans during the Ottoman times, then I simply have no words for you. We were truly free when we had strong Balkan countries, not under religious oppression and taking 1/5 of our sons for the army, and then there's a possibility they'd later kill their own families. Forceful conversions and raping our wives and daughters is not liberation either, at least I hope you recognize that.

Dude unironically supports the genocide of Ukraine by Russia to "save" them from "NATO imperialism". There is absolutely nothing beneath him.

Then he'll get mad if I propose bombing the Ka'aba (which I don't say should happen, but still;)

[The Byzantine Caliphate]

If your idea of "liberation" is something akin to what happened to the Balkans during the Ottoman times, then I simply have no words for you. We were truly free when we had strong Balkan countries, not under religious oppression and taking 1/5 of our sons for the army, and then there's a possibility they'd later kill their own families. Forceful conversions and raping our wives and daughters is not liberation either, at least I hope you recognize that.

Dude unironically supports the genocide of Ukraine by Russia to "save" them from "NATO imperialism". There is absolutely nothing beneath him.

Why tf would I support a professed Christian fascist and islamophobe? Russia is just as bad as the west in terms of bombing the shit out of the Middle East.

[The Byzantine Caliphate]

BC and WEK: do you support the establishment of a sovereign Islamist state in Xinjiang/East Turkestan if it means a violent struggle against the PRC backed by the US?

No because the west will just backstab them when it has the chance. The U.S. has never been a reliable ally to anyone outside its own circle of friends [and even then that is no guarantee; see Trump.] Just ask anyone at the receiving end of N.A.T.O. boots and bombs.

The only leader I would trust to liberate me is Erdoğan.

[The Lazarene Republic]

BC and WEK: do you support the establishment of a sovereign Islamist state in Xinjiang/East Turkestan if it means a violent struggle against the PRC backed by the US?

No because the west will just backstab them when it has the chance. The U.S. has never been a reliable ally to anyone outside its own circle of friends [and even then that is no guarantee; see Trump.] Just ask anyone at the receiving end of N.A.T.O. boots and bombs.

The only leader I would trust to liberate me is Erdoğan.

America treats its Muslims better than Russia and China do

[Eahland]

Dude unironically supports the genocide of Ukraine by Russia to "save" them from "NATO imperialism". There is absolutely nothing beneath him.

Why tf would I support a professed Christian fascist and islamophobe? Russia is just as bad as the west in terms of bombing the shit out of the Middle East.

That's a question you should be asking yourself, not me.

[Fahran]

The only leader I would trust to liberate me is Erdoğan.

I'm not certain this is the best idea. Maybe this would make sense with early 2000s Erdogan. 2020s Erdogan though? Absolutely not.

[The Two Jerseys]

So the Ottoman Turks were... checks notes... liberating the capital of Austria by... checks notes again ...trying to invade it and take it over from the people who already live there?

There are words for that behaviour.
"Imperialism" and "colonialism."

It was a rightful jihad against the Austrians who had been occupying and subjugating the Hungarians; they cried for help and the Ottomans answered.

Conveniently you ignore the fact that Hungary was doing just fine until the Ottomans invaded them in 1526, and they occupied more of Hungary than the Habsburgs controlled...

[Europa Undivided]

And what was a Muslim army doing outside Vienna, exactly?

Liberating it.

"We've come to free you from yourselves!"

[Europa Undivided]

BC and WEK: do you support the establishment of a sovereign Islamist state in Xinjiang/East Turkestan if it means a violent struggle against the PRC backed by the US?

No because the west will just backstab them when it has the chance. The U.S. has never been a reliable ally to anyone outside its own circle of friends [and even then that is no guarantee; see Trump.] Just ask anyone at the receiving end of N.A.T.O. boots and bombs.

The only leader I would trust to liberate me is Erdoğan.

Every single nation on Earth will backstab their supposed allies if it benefits them. That's just how it is.

[Hexatanople]

And what was a Muslim army doing outside Vienna, exactly?

Liberating it.

I say this unironically; western esp. Anglo-French colonialism is the worst thing to ever happen in history. Anything to displace European Christian hegemony is a positive; both World Wars would have been avoided as well as the present Middle Eastern conflicts.

Should've let the Ottomans march on to London; then N.A.T.O. would not exist.

“Imperialism sucks, except when we do it.”

[The Byzantine Caliphate]

Of course, ignoring that, how do you also justify proposing an Ottoman siege of London here?

Ok, pretending that that wildly over simplified version of events is satisfactory, why should they have kept going?

Would have saved the world from 400 years of Anglo-French domination and colonial subjugation.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Of course, ignoring that, how do you also justify proposing an Ottoman siege of London here?

Ok, pretending that that wildly over simplified version of events is satisfactory, why should they have kept going?

Would have saved the world from 400 years of Anglo-French domination and colonial subjugation.

And instead, we would have gotten more Islamic domination and colonial subjugation. Such a big improvement lol

[M4A1]

Would have saved the world from 400 years of Anglo-French domination and colonial subjugation.

Right, but how would Ottomans 500 years ago know that the British and French would come to (disastrously) run the world for hundreds of years? And why would they care beyond the fact that it wasn't them who got to do it? And what makes you think that Ottoman imperialism would certainly have been without the complications that was associated with European imperialism? Or do you just think it would be Muslim evil instead of Christian evil and therefore preferable to an Islamist? These are all problems that are rather implicit to the original question, but you're avoiding them here with your circular logic here.

[National State of Nordicia]

And what was a Muslim army doing outside Vienna, exactly?

Liberating it.

I say this unironically; western esp. Anglo-French colonialism is the worst thing to ever happen in history. Anything to displace European Christian hegemony is a positive; both World Wars would have been avoided as well as the present Middle Eastern conflicts.

Should've let the Ottomans march on to London; then N.A.T.O. would not exist.

"European Christian supremacy is bad but Turkic Muslim supremacy is great." -The Byzantine Caliphate.

[The Byzantine Caliphate]

Right, but how would Ottomans 500 years ago know that the British and French would come to (disastrously) run the world for hundreds of years? And why would they care beyond the fact that it wasn't them who got to do it?

They wouldn't. I'm saying the Polish and Germans should never have meddled; and let the Ottomans take Vienna.

And what makes you think that Ottoman imperialism would certainly have been without the complications that was associated with European imperialism? Or do you just think it would be Muslim evil instead of Christian evil and therefore preferable to an Islamist? These are all problems that are rather implicit to the original question, but you're avoiding them here with your circular logic here.

Medieval Islam was much superior to medieval Christianity. The Muslims built libraries and invented astronomy; while the papacy tried its darndest to keep serfs in the dark and burn women for knowing how to read and write.

[Ors Might]

Right, but how would Ottomans 500 years ago know that the British and French would come to (disastrously) run the world for hundreds of years? And why would they care beyond the fact that it wasn't them who got to do it?

They wouldn't. I'm saying the Polish and Germans should never have meddled; and let the Ottomans take Vienna.

And what makes you think that Ottoman imperialism would certainly have been without the complications that was associated with European imperialism? Or do you just think it would be Muslim evil instead of Christian evil and therefore preferable to an Islamist? These are all problems that are rather implicit to the original question, but you're avoiding them here with your circular logic here.

Medieval Islam was much superior to medieval Christianity. The Muslims built libraries and invented astronomy; while the papacy tried its darndest to keep serfs in the dark and burn women for knowing how to read and write.

Imperialism doesn't become okay just because you build crap and act the mostly benevolent overlord.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Right, but how would Ottomans 500 years ago know that the British and French would come to (disastrously) run the world for hundreds of years? And why would they care beyond the fact that it wasn't them who got to do it?

They wouldn't. I'm saying the Polish and Germans should never have meddled; and let the Ottomans take Vienna.

And what makes you think that Ottoman imperialism would certainly have been without the complications that was associated with European imperialism? Or do you just think it would be Muslim evil instead of Christian evil and therefore preferable to an Islamist? These are all problems that are rather implicit to the original question, but you're avoiding them here with your circular logic here.

Medieval Islam was much superior to medieval Christianity. The Muslims built libraries and invented astronomy; while the papacy tried its darndest to keep serfs in the dark and burn women for knowing how to read and write.

By this logic, modern western imperialism is completely fine since we build hospitals and libraries while the people we bomb like to cut off lady bits.

[Total Drama 2]

islamism is the most despicable ideology to ever exist

Worse than Nazism?

Here is my 2¢, I think Nazism and Islamism are both the worst ideologies in human history.