Sweepings from the floor

[Ardchoille]

After a perfunctory wave of the broom through the proposals queue:

(1) Nuclear Arms Possession Act must surely be the "Most Repeals Attempted" proposal on the WA's books. (Anyone been keeping figures on this? Flib?) Anyway, based on the latest ones, please note:

A repeal based on national sovereignty is not acceptable. Repeal arguments must go beyond "nations have a right to decide for themselves". That's because nations that join the WA have given up the right to decide for themselves, in areas where the WA has made a decision.

(2) Reduction of Abortion Act is bidding fair to become the "Most Often Misunderstood" proposal. Potential repealers, please note:

6. DECLARES that nothing in this resolution shall affect the power of member states to declare abortion legal or illegal or to pass legislation extending or restricting access to abortion.

(Also see (1) for NatSov arguments.)

(3) Real World references: People keep saying, "But obviously a modern nation would have to have ...(iPods, Einstein's Theory of Relativity, Morse code)." No; even some parts of the Real World real world don't have them, or do have them, but with different names. If the French Academy that keeps English words out of French can come up with different names for widely known things, and if the Vatican can find Latin versions of them, so can you. Hint: capital letters are a giveaway. If you say Google, Nokia, Bandaid, Velcro, you're got problems. Those companies/brands may not exist in the multiverse. If you say internet search engine, cell (or mobile) phone, sticking plaster, hook and loop tape, you've got more chance of getting it right.

[Inflatable Gandalfs]

Not only would "national sovereignty" be an unacceptable argument in NAPA's case, it would be completely false, as NAPA does not violate sovereignty in the slightest.

At any rate, I can understand why Nokia, Google, iPod and even BandAid would be illegal RL references, but Morse code? What else could you call it? Is there even a generic name for it, besides "beeps on a telegraph"? The same is true for velcro, in that, even though it does have a generic name, a reference to "hook and loop tape" without context is sure to make readers scratch their heads and ask "What is that?!" Before I read this post I had no idea velcro even had a generic name.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Velcro brand is an example of a genericized trademark but it is still an RL reference, and remember... They are only examples.

[Glen-Rhodes]

... but Morse code? What else could you call it? Is there even a generic name for it, besides "beeps on a telegraph"?

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter. If your proposal hinges on mentioning real-life products, system, etc., and they absolutely cannot be transferred to generic terms, then the proposal probably isn't worth the time anyways.

[Flibbleites]

(1) Nuclear Arms Possession Act must surely be the "Most Repeals Attempted" proposal on the WA's books. (Anyone been keeping figures on this? Flib?) Anyway, based on the latest ones, please note:

Yay! I'm the new UN Taxation Ban!

[Jey]

... but Morse code? What else could you call it? Is there even a generic name for it, besides "beeps on a telegraph"?

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter. If your proposal hinges on mentioning real-life products, system, etc., and they absolutely cannot be transferred to generic terms, then the proposal probably isn't worth the time anyways.

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter....right. Very concise. Hold on, I need to get off the Internet for a moment. Or should I say, I need to get off a "global system of interconnected computer networks of standardized protocols consisting of millions of private and public, academic, business, and government networks which carry a vast array of information resources and services."

[Glen-Rhodes]

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter....right. Very concise. Hold on, I need to get off the Internet for a moment. Or should I say, I need to get off a "global system of interconnected computer networks of standardized protocols consisting of millions of private and public, academic, business, and government networks which carry a vast array of information resources and services."

That's silly. You're silly. You know, simply defining Morse code as that probably would've solved the whole problem. If it didn't exist then, then it obviously would exist now. Just say some guy in your nation invented it, when ambassadors ask why it's named Morse code. Do branding rules go that far?

[Flibbleites]

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter....right. Very concise. Hold on, I need to get off the Internet for a moment. Or should I say, I need to get off a "global system of interconnected computer networks of standardized protocols consisting of millions of private and public, academic, business, and government networks which carry a vast array of information resources and services."

That's silly. You're silly. You know, simply defining Morse code as that probably would've solved the whole problem. If it didn't exist then, then it obviously would exist now. Just say some guy in your nation invented it, when ambassadors ask why it's named Morse code. Do branding rules go that far?

Don't list everyone who posted in the thread for your draft, don't list yourself, don't list your Minister Of Making Proposals,

I'd say yes.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Don't list everyone who posted in the thread for your draft, don't list yourself, don't list your Minister Of Making Proposals,

I'd say yes.

Then use "rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter". It's four words; not that big of a deal. Or simply "telegraph language", or whatever, since Morse code is just the language that telegraphs were often sent in. Be creative.

[Progressive Union]

Velcro brand is an example of a genericized trademark but it is still an RL reference, and remember... They are only examples.

In the southeastern United States, every soft drink beverage, including non-colas, are called "Coke".

[Progressive Union]

... but Morse code? What else could you call it? Is there even a generic name for it, besides "beeps on a telegraph"?

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter. If your proposal hinges on mentioning real-life products, system, etc., and they absolutely cannot be transferred to generic terms, then the proposal probably isn't worth the time anyways.

Rhythmic telegraphic information transmitter....right. Very concise. Hold on, I need to get off the Internet for a moment. Or should I say, I need to get off a "global system of interconnected computer networks of standardized protocols consisting of millions of private and public, academic, business, and government networks which carry a vast array of information resources and services."

GREAT point! I love the delivery.

[Ardchoille]

Ah, it's lovely to hear the happy laughter of little GAers out in the healthy sunshine playing the time-honoured game of "Hairsplitting" again ...

Jey et al: ma-a-ate, my point was that brand names should give people pause. Capital letters usually go with brand names, so they should be a danger signal too. ("The net" or "the internet" doesn't really need caps, though some of the stodgier papers still use them. But it'd be a brave player who'd write a proposal to try to impose order on the net, even in NS.)

If anyone's got to talk about Morse code, they could try "telegraphic code". But don't try telling us about your citizen Mr Morse, because now this clever loophole which nobody has ever, ever thought of before has been revealed, the mods will be clued up! We might even refuse to believe that it was Elizabeth Alanna Alysson Einstein who gave NS the General Theory of Relativity.

Thing is, if you're still in a frame of mind where you have to talk about all this RW stuff, then you're probably not in the right mindset to be writing a GA proposal, because they have to be international in concept. So, rather than try to make everyone check iPods at their international airports, you should be looking more at, say, instituting (specified) security procedures at all points of international entry and exit, and those security procedures should include checks on (including, but not limited to)(generic terms here).

(Which I have a vague feeling is already covered under one of the terrorism acts, if it didn't get repealed, or die in the UN fire, so please don't go jumping in and writing that one up without researching it.)

Oh, and the relying on NatSov/misunderstanding the original Act: these two crop up again and again in all sorts of repeals. They're interchangeable on the abortion and the nuclear ones. It doesn't matter that they're obviously hopeless, people try them on anyway. It's in the hope that Delegates won't fall for them that I keep nattering on about it.

[Inflatable Gandalfs]

I could have sworn there was a Gun Control proposal that had either reached quorum or was very close to it yesterday; it's gone now. What happened with that?

[Unibot]

There was a "Right to Self Defense" that looked articulate from first glance (I didn't read it because I was on a mission) and I think it had 40-something endorsements. Its not there anymore, maybe the author asked for it to be deleted. I think it was a Human Rights proposal though.

The only gun control proposal I could find that wasn't "Give us more gunz" is the WA Concealed Carry License, its in the queue now with 12 votes.

[Inflatable Gandalfs]

There was a "Right to Self Defense" that looked articulate from first glance (I didn't read it because I was on a mission) and I think it had 40-something endorsements. Its not there anymore, maybe the author asked for it to be deleted. I think it was a Human Rights proposal though.

That's what I'm referring to. But it was listed under Gun Control. I'm asking if a mod actually deleted it, and if it had reached quorum before they did.

[Ardchoille]

I don't remember deleting any gun proposals last night. OTOH, I was sweeping for bright-line violations, and gun proposals often have those. I could go through the logs, but it's a pain. Is there a specific reason for the query?

[Inflatable Gandalfs]

Just for NSwiki timeline upkeep. We track all proposals that hit quorum, whether they actually get to vote or not. If the proposal Unibot refers to hit quorum and was deleted, it would be an issue, whereas if it was deleted without making quorum first, or simply expired on its own, we can ignore it.

[New Rockport]

It had 45 approvals with just a few minutes to go last night, so my guess is that it didn't attain quorum.

[The Cat-Tribe]

Can people please refrain from writing "The Right to 'X'" titles for resolutions, particularly when the resolution isn't about the right to "X"?

[Ardchoille]

Quick flourish of the broom:

1. Re "Repeal Freedom of Marriage Act": however it's dressed up, "Religious nations don't like it" is STILL a nat-sov argument all on its lonesome, and won't wash.
2. Re Repeal practically anything you care to mention: saying "keep this bit but dump this bit" is an attempt at an amendment. We don't do amendments.
3. Re gun control: removing all controls on guns does not automatically make bearing arms a right. It just means there are no controls on guns. If you want to make it a right, you need another proposal.

[Omigodtheykilledkenny]

Just for NSwiki timeline upkeep. We track all proposals that hit quorum, whether they actually get to vote or not. If the proposal Unibot refers to hit quorum and was deleted, it would be an issue, whereas if it was deleted without making quorum first, or simply expired on its own, we can ignore it.

Apparently, both the World Library proposal and the International Adoption Act have been stricken from the queue. I don't even remember if the former hit quorum, but for purposes of keeping the wiki accurate, would the mods mind keeping us posted on quorumed proposals being deleted and/or withdrawn? Thanks.

[Ardchoille]

World Library was deleted after reaching quorum with 57 approvals on what I tagged as a format violation. As it stood it wouldn't have created the organisation described in the prefatory clauses and would have been difficult to implement.

International Adoption (quorum; 60 approvals) was deleted after a challenge for category violations, in that it was submitted under a category that restricts civil freedoms but had clauses that increased civil freedoms.

Both proposals should be viable after a rewrite.