Ukrainian War VI: Did you ever know...

[Kaumudeen]

The key difference is we helped our ALLIES while the Soviets fucked theirs over.

You abandoned a lot of your allies during the Cold War for various reasons.

Mossadegh in Iran? The Brits.

America still helped them, and eventually played the leading role by supporting the Shah for 25 years until America abandoned him.

Vietnam, started as a favor for the French.

The French had already left by the time America got involved, and then eventually America abandoned it when they realized that trying to fight farmers by napalming civilians isn't gonna cut it.

Everything we do in the ME? For Israel.

Yes that is true, but to the detriment of the United States and its security.

[The Apollonian Systems]

I can't believe people are shocked and angered the Pope is calling for peace in a conflict. He has done it for every other conflict, why are you all so surprised?.

Saying Ukraine should surrender to Russia is like saying Gaza should surrender to Israel.

[Kaumudeen]

I can't believe people are shocked and angered the Pope is calling for peace in a conflict. He has done it for every other conflict, why are you all so surprised?.

Saying Ukraine should surrender to Russia is like saying Gaza should surrender to Israel.

I agree, I just don't know why people are surprised the Pope is calling for negotiations.

[The Apollonian Systems]

Saying Ukraine should surrender to Russia is like saying Gaza should surrender to Israel.

I agree, I just don't know why people are surprised the Pope is calling for negotiations.

As others have stated he’s really putting all of the blame on Ukraine.

[Big Eyed Animation]

The key difference is we helped our ALLIES while the Soviets fucked theirs over.

You abandoned a lot of your allies during the Cold War for various reasons.

Mossadegh in Iran? The Brits.

America still helped them, and eventually played the leading role by supporting the Shah for 25 years until America abandoned him.

Vietnam, started as a favor for the French.

The French had already left by the time America got involved, and then eventually America abandoned it when they realized that trying to fight farmers by napalming civilians isn't gonna cut it.

Everything we do in the ME? For Israel.

Yes that is true, but to the detriment of the United States and its security.

But we stayed true to our primary ones like our NATO brothers and Israel with exception to the Suez situation. If you speak of Noriega, he fucked himself over trying to play both sides towards the end. Still better than the Soviets who were never trusting of their only real major ally and not satellite China. They had always viewed each other with suspicion.

We fucked up in Iran because Carter the peanut farmer was too incompetent and didn't advise the Shah enough to not modernize too quickly. He also underestimated the power of the communist Tudeh in Iran, gullible naive fools who Khomeini played like a violin and then purged en mass.

We lost in Vietnam because of our naive hippie leftists.
Many were enamored with communism and Che Guevera shirts and had no idea about dickheads like Trofim Lysenko and Maos magical GLF and CR. We also didn't actually fight the Vietnamese as all we did was defensive actions with very little offensive action against N. Vietnam. The only thing I knew of was Linebacker 1 and 2.

Israel is a key ally not to mention to abandon Israel would set a precedent for abandoning countries like Japan and Taiwan. As for our security, didn't I say we BlEED for our allies, something the Soviets and Chinese never did much of.

And still, Biden is the one ultimately responsible for not agreeing to such a small ask from Republicans. Flooding the country with illegals to increase Democrat votes or helping Ukraine? We got our answer

[USHALLNOTPASS]

We lost in Vietnam because of our naive hippie leftists.
Many were enamored with communism and Che Guevera shirts and had no idea about dickheads like Trofim Lysenko and Maos magical GLF and CR. We also didn't actually fight the Vietnamese as all we did was defensive actions with very little offensive action against N. Vietnam. The only thing I knew of was Linebacker 1 and 2.

Bros still coping over the Vietnam war with his pseudo stab in the back bullshit 60 years after the fact.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

We lost in Vietnam because of our naive hippie leftists.
Many were enamored with communism and Che Guevera shirts and had no idea about dickheads like Trofim Lysenko and Maos magical GLF and CR. We also didn't actually fight the Vietnamese as all we did was defensive actions with very little offensive action against N. Vietnam. The only thing I knew of was Linebacker 1 and 2.

Bros still coping over the Vietnam war with his pseudo stab in the back bullshit 60 years after the fact.

Still better than my cope that immediately after when China decided Vietnam would become their little vassal-statle like they did to Tibet, were like: whoa, whoa, back the fuck up please and thank you"

China was like: "you and what army, the Americans left."

Vietnam: "Yeah, but they left all their toys behind and we've spent the better part of 30 years learning how to use them"

The Sino-Vietnamese conflict was decidedly one-sided in favor of an independent Vietnam, which is what the US interest in their involvement there was all about.

I'll admit it wasn't the cleanest of pullouts, but it was a fair sight better than Afghanistan.
-ofc, the ethno-political purges that followed both were still absolutely horrible

[The Lone Alliance]

I could literally say the opposite about Western leaders. They call on the Palestinians to make peace with the Israeli occupier but for Ukraine to keep fighting Russian occupiers.

Even Western Leaders still say Israel should try to make peace and make ineffective calls for restraint, the Pope is the only one implying that Russia doesn't have to negotiate. Why are you acting surprised that people pointing out that the Pope is completely denying Russia's own agency and responsibility for the war is outrageous?
If the Pope was fair he would have called for both Russia and Ukraine to work towards peace, he didn't even speak of negotiations as in some sort of balance, he outright told Ukraine to wave the white flag of surrender.

So yeah fuck that guy, he doesn't care about Ukrainian lives he would just rather Russia win so they can kill the Ukrainians in a way he doesn't have to know about. End the war so Russia can start shipping the Ukrainians off to the Gulags where he doesn't have to see them die. But that suits his Catholic base in the Global South who really could care less about what Russia does because it doesn't affect them outside of the grain shortages. So maybe he just wants the war to end now because if it keeps going eventually Ukraine isn't going to be able to grow food and his people will starve.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

I could literally say the opposite about Western leaders. They call on the Palestinians to make peace with the Israeli occupier but for Ukraine to keep fighting Russian occupiers.

Even Western Leaders still say Israel should try to make peace and make ineffective calls for restraint, the Pope is the only one implying that Russia doesn't have to negotiate. Why are you acting surprised that people pointing out that the Pope is completely denying Russia's own agency and responsibility for the war is outrageous?
If the Pope was fair he would have called for both Russia and Ukraine to work towards peace, he didn't even speak of negotiations as in some sort of balance, he outright told Ukraine to wave the white flag of surrender.

So yeah fuck that guy, he doesn't care about Ukrainian lives he would just rather Russia win so they can kill the Ukrainians in a way he doesn't have to know about. End the war so Russia can start shipping the Ukrainians off to the Gulags where he doesn't have to see them die. But that suits his Catholic base in the Global South who really could care less about what Russia does because it doesn't affect them outside of the grain shortages. So maybe he just wants the war to end now because if it keeps going eventually Ukraine isn't going to be able to grow food and his people will starve.

It could be that perhaps someone is leveraging a threat on the Pope's life for that statement to ignore Russia's part in a conflict.

[Oceasia]

The documentary "20 Days in Mariupol" has won an Oscar for Best Documentary. Congrats to the people who worked hard to document the struggle that Ukraine is going through. I hope that this will help re-energize Western urgency in helping Ukraine achieve victory against the Russian invaders.

[The Archregimancy]

Exacerbated by the problem of implicitly thinking that a Catholic Pope has, and should have, some measure of influence in a country that's almost three quarters Orthodox and less than 10% Catholic.

It's just about possible that he's thinking the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople can't serve as a neutral arbiter given the latter recognised the autocephaly of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine over the objections of the Moscow Patriarchate. If so, then he's partially right; but this doesn't explain why, given the broader historical context, Francis ever thought he should be the primary alternative.

But I'm speculating; it's equally possible that it's just a sign that an 87 year old is just losing his grip.

It’s not aimed at Ukraine. It’s aimed at Ukraine’s western backers.

I'm sorry, but I think this is an extraordinarily short-sighted comment; and even if that was his intent, I can assure you that the Pope's remarks are not being interpreted that way by the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians.

My own sample size is small and likely self-selecting, but every Ukrainian and anti-Putin Russian I know feels hurt, confused, and not a little angry with Francis.

[USHALLNOTPASS]

Ukraine’s caught in a really shitty bind right now.

They essentially have to fight out this year against a Russian advantage in manufacturing and Russian initiative. Any set backs this year will make its war aims of retaking all of Ukraine’s territory more difficult especially in this Iraq-Iran War type of war.

They can’t even pull off a Minsk 2.0 sort of deal I.e. a ceasefire with the goal of rearming and buying more time for Ukraine, because Russia is hardly going to allow that to happen.

It should be noted that the last time Ukraine tried to build up force (prior to their counter offensive), they got bogged down defending Bakhmut, and ended up sending assault forces there. Whilst this wasn’t the only cause for the counter offensives defeat, difficulties in force generation surely didn’t help.

If Ukraine does appear to be winning then we have to be concerned about Russian nukes and/or China providing military aid to Russia. If anyone thinks “we can just sanction China as we did Russia - block them off from SWIFT” - if that actually occurs, America’s position as the world’s leading economic power would be toast.

So what does this mean for Ukraine?

Ukraine could try holding out for a year - of course this means they would have to hold out for a year and there’s no guarantee that Trump wouldn’t just block aid if elected. Ukraine however would still have a chance to seize the initiative again.

Ukraine could have a negotiated settlement - this would likely mean it being barred from joining NATO (if it rescinds its claims over its own territory). Ukraines chances of regaining its territory would be next to zero.

In short, all roads lead to the shithouse.

[The Lone Alliance]

Ukraine could have a negotiated settlement - this would likely mean it being barred from joining NATO (if it rescinds its claims over its own territory). Ukraines chances of regaining its territory would be next to zero.

I'm convinced even before the Congress obstructionism that deep down many countries in the west actually wanted this outcome as the 'Least Bad" of the outcomes, yes including the United States , there are too many political experts who are used to the status quo of ""Mafia Gas station Russia" that the idea of Russia completely failing leading to a Putin regime collapse and a possible second Russian civil war terrifies them. (Or worse Putin deciding to use his nukes to prevent said failure leading to nuclear war) Because a Russian collapse would just lead to an even larger mess because then they have to keep track of Russia's nukes and go from one Imperialist corrupt Mafia regime to a good half a dozen of them all with competing demands and aggressive ideas. It'll be great for the CIA and China, horrible for international stability. So the General idea I believe the west had was is "Wear both sides down until they're too exhausted to continue by giving Ukraine just enough to keep them in the fight so in the end both sides will accept a compromise so Putin still gets to have his Winter War victory". The hardest problem is that no one in the West wants to take the fall for failing Ukraine when everyone swore that we would support them no matter what.

Well until the Republicans decided to step on the rake themselves, now if Ukraine has to take a loss everyone can simply blame the Republicans. Which works out fine for Europe, the Democrats and most of the West in General, even works out well for Russia and the rest of the world, yes even China.

With the current state of the Republican party, a party in it's death throws clinging to Trump's cult of personality as their final messiah, the rest of the Western world simply has to wait for both Trump and Putin to die and the largest Geopolitical threats to the Western order outside of China, IE Putin run Russia and a Trump influenced United States, will remove themselves from the Equation.

And the Republican party minus Trump has no one really left in the tank mostly because Trump, much like Putin, did his part to degrade and remove anyone who could threaten his hold creating a house of cards held up by him.

I really think Macron's recent actions are being done because he smells blood in the water and he believes that if the United States spends the next four years either constantly fighting with the Trump faction or worse a second Trump Presidency, there's going to need to be a new leader of the Western World, and he wants France to be it. That or after two years of trying to get Putin to stop he's deciding that he'll have the EU secure Ukraine's victory and accomplish what the United States couldn't.

[Ethel mermania]

It’s not aimed at Ukraine. It’s aimed at Ukraine’s western backers.

I'm sorry, but I think this is an extraordinarily short-sighted comment; and even if that was his intent, I can assure you that the Pope's remarks are not being interpreted that way by the overwhelming majority of Ukrainians.

My own sample size is small and likely self-selecting, but every Ukrainian and anti-Putin Russian I know feels hurt, confused, and not a little angry with Francis.

Your sample size has some direct interest in the war. I kind of agree with the point that this is the pope doing pope things without regard to righteousness, context, or nuance. The pope Is recommending pure and simple appeasement to save lives since he believes Putin will never back down.

[Phoeniae]

it means possible path is either to settle down defeat compromise (meanwhile putin's caste has to slowly retire, which I do not know how can they possible accept) or to dispatch counteroffensive.

political maority is too much excessively extremist, and corrupted, to confront substantially a fascist regime which is also profitable market and orderly discount bazar of vital resources.

it seems to me a political era comparable to a melt of post vienna congress 1820-48 europe, and inter world wars 1922-1940 europe. which is why I foresaw unavoidable war, where to fall each by each.

the matter is, that compared to historical samples I noticed, natural consciousness has grown because of precedents and education, meanwhile vicious mediatic hustle and vices also grew in prominence.

may navalny bless us.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Watch live: Flag raising ceremony at NATO in Brussels for Sweden's accession to alliance
Something something dominium maris baltici

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Trump will not give a penny to Ukraine - Hungary PM Orban

Donald Trump will not fund Ukraine's fight against Russia's invasion if he is elected US president again, Hungarian PM Viktor Orban has said.

"He will not give a penny in the Ukraine-Russia war. That is why the war will end," the conservative premier said after meeting Mr Trump in Florida.

The former US president has pledged to end the war "within 24 hours" if elected - but provided no details.

Mr Orban is openly backing his long-term ally in the 2024 White House race.

"It is obvious that Ukraine cannot stand on its own feet," Mr Orban told Hungary's M1 TV channel late on Sunday.

"If the Americans don't give money and weapons, along with the Europeans, then the war is over. And if the Americans don't give money, the Europeans alone are unable to finance this war. And then the war is over."

He added that Mr Trump had "pretty detailed plans" on how to end the Russia-Ukraine war - but did not elaborate.

Mr Trump has not publicly commented on Mr Orban's TV interview.

At their Friday meeting in Mr Trump's Mar-a-Lago mansion, the former US president praised his guest. "There's nobody that's better, smarter, or a better leader than Viktor Orban. He's fantastic," he said.

During his US visit, Mr Orban did not meet current US President Joe Biden, who is expected to be Mr Trump's main rival in the presidential elections in November.

It is highly unusual for a visiting foreign leader to schedule talks with former counterparts without calling on the current leadership.

The Hungarian prime minister has repeatedly drawn strong criticism from fellow EU leaders for maintaining close ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, ever since he launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022.

Unlike many other Western nations, Mr Orban refuses to send weapons to its neighbour Ukraine, stating repeatedly that Kyiv is unable to win against a nuclear-armed Russia.

EU leaders are increasingly concerned that a second Trump presidency would see a significant reduction in US military and financial aid to Ukraine and also the Nato military alliance.

A $95bn (£75bn) foreign aid bill - including $60bn in military assistance to Ukraine - has been stalled in US Congress because of Republican opposition.

The Republicans - openly encouraged by Mr Trump - say they will not allow the bill to clear the final hurdle in the House of Representatives without first agreeing additional funding for US border security.

Russian forces have recently made gains in eastern Ukraine, as Kyiv experiences acute shortages in ammunition.

Ukraine is critically dependent on weapons from the US, the main supplier, and other Western allies to keep fighting Russia - a much bigger military force with an abundance of artillery ammunition.

Two people under a Russian thumb.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Trump will not give a penny to Ukraine - Hungary PM Orban

Donald Trump will not fund Ukraine's fight against Russia's invasion if he is elected US president again, Hungarian PM Viktor Orban has said.

"He will not give a penny in the Ukraine-Russia war. That is why the war will end," the conservative premier said after meeting Mr Trump in Florida.

The former US president has pledged to end the war "within 24 hours" if elected - but provided no details.

Mr Orban is openly backing his long-term ally in the 2024 White House race.

"It is obvious that Ukraine cannot stand on its own feet," Mr Orban told Hungary's M1 TV channel late on Sunday.

"If the Americans don't give money and weapons, along with the Europeans, then the war is over. And if the Americans don't give money, the Europeans alone are unable to finance this war. And then the war is over."

He added that Mr Trump had "pretty detailed plans" on how to end the Russia-Ukraine war - but did not elaborate.

Mr Trump has not publicly commented on Mr Orban's TV interview.

At their Friday meeting in Mr Trump's Mar-a-Lago mansion, the former US president praised his guest. "There's nobody that's better, smarter, or a better leader than Viktor Orban. He's fantastic," he said.

During his US visit, Mr Orban did not meet current US President Joe Biden, who is expected to be Mr Trump's main rival in the presidential elections in November.

It is highly unusual for a visiting foreign leader to schedule talks with former counterparts without calling on the current leadership.

The Hungarian prime minister has repeatedly drawn strong criticism from fellow EU leaders for maintaining close ties with Russian President Vladimir Putin, ever since he launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022.

Unlike many other Western nations, Mr Orban refuses to send weapons to its neighbour Ukraine, stating repeatedly that Kyiv is unable to win against a nuclear-armed Russia.

EU leaders are increasingly concerned that a second Trump presidency would see a significant reduction in US military and financial aid to Ukraine and also the Nato military alliance.

A $95bn (£75bn) foreign aid bill - including $60bn in military assistance to Ukraine - has been stalled in US Congress because of Republican opposition.

The Republicans - openly encouraged by Mr Trump - say they will not allow the bill to clear the final hurdle in the House of Representatives without first agreeing additional funding for US border security.

Russian forces have recently made gains in eastern Ukraine, as Kyiv experiences acute shortages in ammunition.

Ukraine is critically dependent on weapons from the US, the main supplier, and other Western allies to keep fighting Russia - a much bigger military force with an abundance of artillery ammunition.

Two people under a Russian thumb.

Giving the russian empire Aid and Comfort as an American presidential candidate but it's apparently all ok if you haven't officially sent lavrov a declaration of war

[Khardsland]

Two people under a Russian thumb.

If Trump and Orban were Russian puppets, they'd have pulled out of NATO, recognized the DPR and LPR — and Trump wouldn't have asked Zelensky for dirt on his political opponents.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Two people under a Russian thumb.

If Trump and Orban were Russian puppets, they'd have pulled out of NATO, recognized the DPR and LPR — and Trump wouldn't have asked Zelensky for dirt on his political opponents.

bold of you to interpret what ESC said verbatim et literatim

[Osmauri]

Watch live: Flag raising ceremony at NATO in Brussels for Sweden's accession to alliance
Something something dominium maris baltici

Russia is our most valued NATO salesman and telemarketer.

[Oceasia]

Two people under a Russian thumb.

If Trump and Orban were Russian puppets, they'd have pulled out of NATO, recognized the DPR and LPR — and Trump wouldn't have asked Zelensky for dirt on his political opponents.

Trump did suggest that he would pull America out of NATO during his 2nd term, so lets hope that won't happen. I also think he genuinely has no idea what the DPR and LPR are.

[The Apollonian Systems]

Two people under a Russian thumb.

If Trump and Orban were Russian puppets, they'd have pulled out of NATO, recognized the DPR and LPR — and Trump wouldn't have asked Zelensky for dirt on his political opponents.

Man it’s almost like Trump has threatened to withdraw from nato if he becomes president and to allow Russia to attack the alliance and do nothing.

Also the Donbas “republics” don’t exist anymore, remember? Russia annexed them. They’re not “independent” states anymore.

[The Apollonian Systems]

Ukraine’s caught in a really shitty bind right now.

They essentially have to fight out this year against a Russian advantage in manufacturing and Russian initiative. Any set backs this year will make its war aims of retaking all of Ukraine’s territory more difficult especially in this Iraq-Iran War type of war.

They can’t even pull off a Minsk 2.0 sort of deal I.e. a ceasefire with the goal of rearming and buying more time for Ukraine, because Russia is hardly going to allow that to happen.

It should be noted that the last time Ukraine tried to build up force (prior to their counter offensive), they got bogged down defending Bakhmut, and ended up sending assault forces there. Whilst this wasn’t the only cause for the counter offensives defeat, difficulties in force generation surely didn’t help.

If Ukraine does appear to be winning then we have to be concerned about Russian nukes and/or China providing military aid to Russia. If anyone thinks “we can just sanction China as we did Russia - block them off from SWIFT” - if that actually occurs, America’s position as the world’s leading economic power would be toast.

So what does this mean for Ukraine?

Ukraine could try holding out for a year - of course this means they would have to hold out for a year and there’s no guarantee that Trump wouldn’t just block aid if elected. Ukraine however would still have a chance to seize the initiative again.

Ukraine could have a negotiated settlement - this would likely mean it being barred from joining NATO (if it rescinds its claims over its own territory). Ukraines chances of regaining its territory would be next to zero.

In short, all roads lead to the shithouse.

Yah I will say I always found it naive the number of people that have said th at Ukraine should just give up the occupied territory so that they can join nato and the EU, when the fact is that the Russians would never allow it.

[The Apollonian Systems]

If Trump and Orban were Russian puppets, they'd have pulled out of NATO, recognized the DPR and LPR — and Trump wouldn't have asked Zelensky for dirt on his political opponents.

Trump did suggest that he would pull America out of NATO during his 2nd term, so lets hope that won't happen. I also think he genuinely has no idea what the DPR and LPR are.

The DPR and LPR aren’t under dent states anymore even according to Russia.