A Question of LGBTQ Speech

[A Salmon Named Harold]

That's me

Literally said this several times but eh, it's ignored in favor of "I am persecuted " and "Mods want me down".

The OP also wishes to use forbidden words but admins being a thing made them not do it

Darn, was there no way for OP to make their argument without using the forbidden words?

(Also for anyone remotely curious or who even cares, copper cow coffee my beloved. I shall be awake for the next 4/5 day)

[Makko Oko]

Some clippings from various things, I guess:

So... these are neither criticisms toward the LGBT+ community nor the sort of statements you were bemoaning in the OP, bar maybe the last one, to which I'll say... just because they're "your values" does not mean you get a pass if those values are wrong. Should people stand idly by if someone is espousing racial supremacy? That's their values, that shouldn't mean they get told off for being wrong, right?

Ah yes, that comic. While I get that, the answer from my view is still, undoubtedly, a resounding "No, that's not the point". The point is, it's the very idea of criticism that was supposed to be removed, yet is now the effect of an almost global societal role-reversal when it comes to LGBTQ discussions.

No, the very idea of criticism was not supposed to be removed, where in the world did you get that? The premise behind the LGBT+ rights movements is that the sort of criticisms commonly levied are invalid, for various reasons. This is not the same thing.

Just wanted to add my two cents and I noticed nobody else had. Values, even if they are your own, can very well be wrong. Look at past history: Every white person used to believe in enslaving those of a different skin than them. Every person used to think abortion was bad and was banned for a time until Roe v. Wade. Women used to believe they were to only stay at home and take care of the house and children, not anymore. I think my point is coming across well. Values that many people may have had and agreed with back then are no longer true for the present. Those values like Nazism would get you lambasted, however all in all they are all opinions and they should be respected regardless of how illogical they may be.

Can the thread be dead now? Please? I don't want to say anything else stupid to warrant a ban.

If you cannot handle the internet and what people have to say, then you should not have asked the question. You can also read and not respond (also referred to as a lurker), I am sure many people lurked this thread including other mods who did not comment. You could also just not read it at all and treat it as if it were dead.

Random idea though, perhaps you put what you want to say through an AI and make it clean it up for you. I'm sure that would be entertaining.

[The Sovereign Republic of Sol]

If you have a problem with queer people, queer people are gonna have a problem with you.

---

Might I recommend that the OP goes and reads a couple studies (specifically the pubmed links in my sig). They can then use the knowledge gained from said studies to understand why being queer and hating queer people are not equivalent positions and therefore do not require equivalent protections.

[Kalaron]

Here's something that has been rattling around in my brain for ages, and I finally have the courage to post about it.

LGBTQ groups advocate for the right to express their sexuality and opinions, more or less. And anyone who hates on them is called a homophobe, anti-LGBTQ, et cetera. But here's my thought: Nobody can criticize the LGBTQ community for anything anymore without being deemed one of the aforementioned things, which led me to an odd thought. If nobody can criticize LGBTQ+ anymore without being called names, are they no better than the people against them? If the right to express you sexuality and opinions on sexuality is held so dear, why do they dislike and condemn any and all people against them, on any level? I, myself, am NOT homophobic, nor am I against the LGBTQ+ community, but I still hold my point. Anyone who says anything against them, on any scale, are immediately attacked by people not only on social media, but in real life as well. They are accused and told off for their "wrong" ideals, whether they be religious, political, or personal. The very idea of free speech when it comes to sexuality is gone. If you have nothing positive to say, you have nothing to say at all, or you will be brought down by the public and told you are wrong, homophobic, and other things. The very groups that fought for their sexual rights, who fought to not be censored, are now in control, censoring and fighting anyone who opposes their ideas even slightly. It may be hypocrisy, it may not be, it may be a new issue altogether, but it is still an issue that the right to freely speak your opinion, even if against a group, has essentially been removed by the very people who fought for said right.

With that said: Your thoughts, NS?

Well, lets ask ourselves how we'd react to a similar situation. Say that you walked up to some black people, and you were like "I don't hate y'all, I just think that you're...y'know, racially inferior to white people". Would it be fair for those black people to call them racist?
The answer is obviously yes. Having hateful beliefs, which include "being against a minority for being a minority", makes you a hateful person, whether you realize it or not. You really can't just "Be against gay people" or w/e.

[Ifreann]

Here's something that has been rattling around in my brain for ages, and I finally have the courage to post about it.

LGBTQ groups advocate for the right to express their sexuality and opinions, more or less. And anyone who hates on them is called a homophobe, anti-LGBTQ, et cetera. But here's my thought: Nobody can criticize the LGBTQ community for anything anymore without being deemed one of the aforementioned things...

There are people whose whole careers are calling LGBTQ people predatory paedophiles. Hospitals that offer transition related healthcare get bomb threats constantly. In the UK the trial just concluded of two teenagers who murdered a transgender classmate, and at the same time the government are bringing in a new version of Section 28 to try and stop all schools from respecting trans kids.

---

Were I to go into a bar and profess religious reasons for temperance*, I would most likely find myself unwelcome, and I would think the reason would A) be obvious, and B) not, actually, a violation of my free speech.



*Which I do not hold, mind, this is purely for example.

I actually had people approach me in a night club and try to convince me that drinking alcohol is bad. I'd like to say that I made some witty retort, but I was just drunk and told them I wasn't interested.

[Kalaron]

Here's something that has been rattling around in my brain for ages, and I finally have the courage to post about it.

LGBTQ groups advocate for the right to express their sexuality and opinions, more or less. And anyone who hates on them is called a homophobe, anti-LGBTQ, et cetera. But here's my thought: Nobody can criticize the LGBTQ community for anything anymore without being deemed one of the aforementioned things...

There are people whose whole careers are calling LGBTQ people predatory paedophiles. Hospitals that offer transition related healthcare get bomb threats constantly. In the UK the trial just concluded of two teenagers who murdered a transgender classmate, and at the same time the government are bringing in a new version of Section 28 to try and stop all schools from respecting trans kids.

---

Were I to go into a bar and profess religious reasons for temperance*, I would most likely find myself unwelcome, and I would think the reason would A) be obvious, and B) not, actually, a violation of my free speech.



*Which I do not hold, mind, this is purely for example.

I actually had people approach me in a night club and try to convince me that drinking alcohol is bad. I'd like to say that I made some witty retort, but I was just drunk and told them I wasn't interested.

It really is disgusting that it wasn't even charged as a hate crime tbh

[A Salmon Named Harold]

There are people whose whole careers are calling LGBTQ people predatory paedophiles.

I've been getting far too many Youtube ads regarding PraegerU for kids/schools, Daily Wire or some other stupid party preaching this message of how "being trans is just a fad made cool by the media" - (also the media). Like, bro, even if it is a fad, do we need to have such a strong reaction against this? Can't even watch my silly cat videos anymore without the crap

[Order of Maesters]

Yes, when you say bigoted things, people will say you're a bigot.

Yes, and no. They have created (and now control) a new social standard that requires people to accept it, even if they disagree for various reasons, and to silence or socially attack the people who disagree. I could go on Reddit right now and go to the LGBTQ sub, and post the words "I disagree with the LGBTQ community for (Insert political or religious (or even personal) belief here)" and immediately be attacked mentally over social media publicly, through personal messages, and through other encounters. Yes, that's obviously a stupid thing to do, but it would prove my point.

And people who post in support of LGBTQ rights are often called "groomers," "deviants, "pedophiles," and a whole host of other things.

Speaking in the public square goes both ways.

[Cessarea]

I don't suppose you have any examples of this...?
-snip-
Being called a bigot in response to one's speech/opinion does not, in fact, remove your right to freedom of speech or opinion.

A. Do I really have to go track down every example, or at least a few? I shouldn't have to, if you've seen it, you know, if you haven't, you're blind.

B. No, but it does remove your sense of being able to express it FREELY, without the backlash of others. That said, yes, if someone makes a statement about, say, Nazism, than yes, backlash is expected. But if it is a simple disagreement with new societal expectations, no. You shouldn't have to be afraid to make a statement, especially considering what I've said here. And yes, the word racist was a bit misplaced. Oopsies, removed.

This entire thread has been predicated on an OP being worried about getting cancelled for saying something edgy.

The direction it therefore took, with OP now wishing they had never posted it, was predictable from the very beginning.

[Des-Bal]

I don't like people who try to use social pressure and group action to dictate how others should think or behave, those people are bastards. Are there some people who do this LGBTQ speech? Sure, just like there are some who do it with literally every other subject. What you've observed is that bastards rule the discourse of most things.

[Tabako]

A. Do I really have to go track down every example, or at least a few? I shouldn't have to, if you've seen it, you know, if you haven't, you're blind.

B. No, but it does remove your sense of being able to express it FREELY, without the backlash of others. That said, yes, if someone makes a statement about, say, Nazism, than yes, backlash is expected. But if it is a simple disagreement with new societal expectations, no. You shouldn't have to be afraid to make a statement, especially considering what I've said here. And yes, the word racist was a bit misplaced. Oopsies, removed.

This entire thread has been predicated on an OP being worried about getting cancelled for saying something edgy.

The direction it therefore took, with OP now wishing they had never posted it, was predictable from the very beginning.

Especially after wishing they could use banned words against users but mod presence prevents them

[Reploid Productions]

Can the thread be dead now? Please? I don't want to say anything else stupid to warrant a ban.

There is no thread ownership in NSG; you can't just shut down a debate you started when it's not going your way. That said, nothing in this thread has come remotely close to being mod-actionable thus far, so I'm not sure where this paranoia about bans is coming from. The rules really do just boil down to "you have to maintain a minimum level of civility when engaging", or more simply, "don't be a dick."

I will include a general reminder that there IS a thread topic guys, about alleged hypocrisy of speech and the LGBTQ rights movement. Let's be careful about derailing it into a general "argue about LGBTQ people" thread!

[Second Dimetrodon Empire]

That said, nothing in this thread has come remotely close to being mod-actionable thus far

You trawled it already?

[Santheres]

Can the thread be dead now? Please? I don't want to say anything else stupid to warrant a ban.

To add on to what Rep said: then simply do not. You are responsible for your own actions; no one here can make you "say anything else stupid to warrant a ban."

[Kalaron]

Yes, when you say bigoted things, people will say you're a bigot.

Yes, and no. They have created (and now control) a new social standard that requires people to accept it, even if they disagree for various reasons, and to silence or socially attack the people who disagree. I could go on Reddit right now and go to the LGBTQ sub, and post the words "I disagree with the LGBTQ community for (Insert political or religious (or even personal) belief here)" and immediately be attacked mentally over social media publicly, through personal messages, and through other encounters. Yes, that's obviously a stupid thing to do, but it would prove my point.

...Yes, I imagine you could do that. Of course, the question becomes "what reason are you disagreeing with them for, and on what issue?"

No, the very idea of criticism was not supposed to be removed, where in the world did you get that? The premise behind the LGBT+ rights movements is that the sort of criticisms commonly levied are invalid, for various reasons. This is not the same thing.

B. No, but it does remove your sense of being able to express it FREELY, without the backlash of others. That said, yes, if someone makes a statement about, say, Nazism, than yes, backlash is expected.

Yeah I thought I already said something about that. Anyway, that "very" was leftover from what wasn't deleted while I was writing that, yet another late-night grammatical error, but...
They aren't invalid, they happen to be someone else's views. If I, for instance, (EDITED: HYPOTHETICALLY. I have nothing against the LGBTQ community, this idea merely was the result of playing devils advocate with myself.) religiously believe (And no, don't bring up the pro-LGBTQ statements by the pope) that the LGBTQ community is wrong, and say something about it, I shouldn't have to withstand the backlash. (Yes, I'm going to use the term backlash a lot, for lack of better phrase)

There are exactly two things, to my awareness, that one could have beliefs on that would contradict the LGBT community directly. The first is whether gay people should be allowed to have sex.
If you note that you don't personally agree, but would die for their right to do things you disagree with, then no one will really care that much.
If you note that you don't personally agree and wish to see your morality legislated onto them, then you're arguing that your religious beliefs trump their freedom. That absolutely deserves backlash.

The second is whether gay people can marry.
If you believe that it's god's will that they not marry, but believe their marriage is in all other ways just as good as a straight marriage, then no one will care that much about debating you.
If you believe that it's god's will that they not marry, and that their marriage is somehow....lesser than a straight marriage, then yeah that deserves backlash, you're literally arguing that their expression of love is somehow inherently worse and deserve to be forced to either defend or abandon that point.

There's other issues that people can cite, but each one is going to face the same calculus. If you disagree but are willing to fuck-off for freedom, people will largely look at you and say "Fine, what the fuck ever". If you disagree and want to see your morality legislated, people have every right to be angry at you.

E: I just saw that you changed your sig to arguing that people making -frankly- rational points about your position here means you're "100% proving your point" and jesus mate, you can climb off the cross whenever you'd like.

[Bradfordville]

God, the question of "why do people call me a homophobe for not agreeing with being gay?" Is probably one of the lamest I've ever heard. I can't believe someone would be truly clueless enough to not understand. Maybe some folks are. But some are definitely wearing a mask. It's literally being a bigot but not wanting to be called a bigot. If you disagree with being gay, you're homophobic. You think being gay is weird or wrong. This is not that fucking complicated.

The issue isn't any sort of gay agenda. It's people not being able to live with the fact that two men are married, but knowing that if they say that, most Americans will be like "oh you're one of those people." So they cloak it behind everything from ThInK aBoUt ThE kIdS to "I'm only asking questions." And when people rightfully see past the mask, they point at the angry gay people and yell "see I told you the LGTV people are anti free speech! They're enemies of being able to have an opinion!" Unfortunately, the average human being is dumb enough to often fall for this spiel, and not see past it and realize who they're really dealing with, which is a hate monger.

[TRUMP ALMIGHTY]

Yes, and no. They have created (and now control) a new social standard that requires people to accept it, even if they disagree for various reasons, and to silence or socially attack the people who disagree. I could go on Reddit right now and go to the LGBTQ sub, and post the words "I disagree with the LGBTQ community for (Insert political or religious (or even personal) belief here)" and immediately be attacked mentally over social media publicly, through personal messages, and through other encounters. Yes, that's obviously a stupid thing to do, but it would prove my point.

And people who post in support of LGBTQ rights are often called "groomers," "deviants, "pedophiles," and a whole host of other things.

Speaking in the public square goes both ways.

If LGBTQ groups deserve protection from hate speech, then so do conservatives, capitalists, libertarians, and other political groups. Respect is a two way street, and simply posting in favor of conservative beliefs such as the right to life or support of Christian values gets you labeled as a “bigot,” or a “fascist,” by the media.

[Necroghastia]

And people who post in support of LGBTQ rights are often called "groomers," "deviants, "pedophiles," and a whole host of other things.

Speaking in the public square goes both ways.

If LGBTQ groups deserve protection from hate speech, then so do conservatives, capitalists, libertarians, and other political groups. Respect is a two way street, and simply posting in favor of conservative beliefs such as the right to life or support of Christian values gets you labeled as a “bigot,” or a “fascist,” by the media.

Which is not hate speech, so... your point is?

[TRUMP ALMIGHTY]

If LGBTQ groups deserve protection from hate speech, then so do conservatives, capitalists, libertarians, and other political groups. Respect is a two way street, and simply posting in favor of conservative beliefs such as the right to life or support of Christian values gets you labeled as a “bigot,” or a “fascist,” by the media.

Which is not hate speech, so... your point is?

Christian identity has been stigmatized by both the Mainstream Media and online social media groups (especially Reddit), even more so than identifying as LGBTQ. From personal experience, I have never met anyone who I would consider to be a homophobe or transphobe

[Cessarea]

Which is not hate speech, so... your point is?

Christian identity has been stigmatized by both the Mainstream Media and online social media groups (especially Reddit), even more so than identifying as LGBTQ. From personal experience, I have never met anyone who I would consider to be a homophobe or transphobe

Both of those statements seem to be written by someone who has never left their online circle. I'm sorry, but you need more experience on the matter. If you've never met someone that looks funny at trans people who aren't fully passable, or give The Look^TM to non-straight (or straight with gender nonconformity) couples on the street, then you're privileged to be in a place of high social acceptance and progressivism.

Your neutral personal experience is overwhelmed by the negative experiences shared by those that have actively suffered under real stigmatisation, discrimination, abuse, and violence. Of course, I'm taking you seriously, which I know is a horrible idea, but I had to at least try and address whatever it is you're suggesting without taking into account your status as a troll/"satire" account.

[Necroghastia]

Which is not hate speech, so... your point is?

Christian identity has been stigmatized by both the Mainstream Media and online social media groups (especially Reddit), even more so than identifying as LGBTQ.

Remind me what day it is?

From personal experience, I have never met anyone who I would consider to be a homophobe or transphobe

That's not really saying much.

[Cessarea]

Christian identity has been stigmatized by both the Mainstream Media and online social media groups (especially Reddit), even more so than identifying as LGBTQ.

Remind me what day it is?

Why, it's Xmas, obviously. The secular commemorative date where any person from any religion can celebrate their own *od(s)/deities/religious figures! Thank *od for the Cultural Marxists! The Revolution has finally exterminated those dastardly Christies and their scheming ways

[Eahland]

And people who post in support of LGBTQ rights are often called "groomers," "deviants, "pedophiles," and a whole host of other things.

Speaking in the public square goes both ways.

If LGBTQ groups deserve protection from hate speech, then so do conservatives, capitalists, libertarians, and other political groups. Respect is a two way street, and simply posting in favor of conservative beliefs such as the right to life or support of Christian values gets you labeled as a “bigot,” or a “fascist,” by the media.

"Christian values" is, of course, a dogwhistle for, "Not allowing transfolk to exist in public," and similar bullshit. So we're right back to, "Yes, when you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot."

[TRUMP ALMIGHTY]

If LGBTQ groups deserve protection from hate speech, then so do conservatives, capitalists, libertarians, and other political groups. Respect is a two way street, and simply posting in favor of conservative beliefs such as the right to life or support of Christian values gets you labeled as a “bigot,” or a “fascist,” by the media.

"Christian values" is, of course, a dogwhistle for, "Not allowing transfolk to exist in public," and similar bullshit. So we're right back to, "Yes, when you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot."

Christian values include the following; Loving God, loving your neighbor as you love yourself, forgiving others as they have wronged you, loving your enemies, and asking God for your forgiveness

None of this is bigoted

[Eahland]

"Christian values" is, of course, a dogwhistle for, "Not allowing transfolk to exist in public," and similar bullshit. So we're right back to, "Yes, when you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot."

Christian values include the following; Loving God, loving your neighbor as you love yourself, forgiving others as they have wronged you, loving your enemies, and asking God for your forgiveness

None of this is bigoted

Yeah, I grew up in the Bible Belt. Go tell it to someone else.