Saor Alba wrote:I am of the opinion that civil servants should not be allowed to strike over policy, and if they do then they should just be fired. The alternative is allowing elected governments to appoint civil servants.
Hear, hear.
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by Great Britain eke Northern Ireland » Tue May 30, 2023 8:06 am
Saor Alba wrote:I am of the opinion that civil servants should not be allowed to strike over policy, and if they do then they should just be fired. The alternative is allowing elected governments to appoint civil servants.
The Herald:
by The Huskar Social Union » Tue May 30, 2023 8:21 am
by The Huskar Social Union » Tue May 30, 2023 8:23 am
by Clussy Paradise » Tue May 30, 2023 8:26 am
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Starmer leads Sunak by 8%, his largest lead since 12 March.
At this moment, which of the following do Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (28 May)
Keir Starmer 42% (+4)
Rishi Sunak 34% (–)
Changes +/- 21 May
by Bahrimontagn » Tue May 30, 2023 10:26 am
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Starmer leads Sunak by 8%, his largest lead since 12 March.
At this moment, which of the following do Britons think would be the better Prime Minister for the UK? (28 May)
Keir Starmer 42% (+4)
Rishi Sunak 34% (–)
Changes +/- 21 May
by Ifreann » Tue May 30, 2023 10:34 am
Has there ever been a time when members of Civil Service department went on strike? Do Civil Servants have the right to strike?
It would be the latest in a string of strikes by civil servants, with 130,000 people walking out of 132 government departments last month over pay and conditions.
Saor Alba wrote:I am of the opinion that civil servants should not be allowed to strike over policy, and if they do then they should just be fired. The alternative is allowing elected governments to appoint civil servants.
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 12:14 pm
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by Hirota » Tue May 30, 2023 1:43 pm
I disagree with "independent" and suggest "nonpartisan" instead.Celritannia wrote:Great Britain eke Northern Ireland wrote:
Hear, hear.
Firing a large portion of civil servants puts the entire function of government to a standstill. Not a good idea.
And governments appointing their own civil servants is an even worse idea. The whole point of the Civil Service is to be independent. The moment elected Governments appoint their own civil servants is the point where the civil service is politicised. You also remove the civil servants being able to function due to longevity when there are no elected governments and lose the established expertise.
by Fartsniffage » Tue May 30, 2023 2:07 pm
Hirota wrote:I disagree with "independent" and suggest "nonpartisan" instead.Celritannia wrote:
Firing a large portion of civil servants puts the entire function of government to a standstill. Not a good idea.
And governments appointing their own civil servants is an even worse idea. The whole point of the Civil Service is to be independent. The moment elected Governments appoint their own civil servants is the point where the civil service is politicised. You also remove the civil servants being able to function due to longevity when there are no elected governments and lose the established expertise.
But I'd much rather they were independent than selected.
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 2:11 pm
Hirota wrote:I disagree with "independent" and suggest "nonpartisan" instead.Celritannia wrote:
Firing a large portion of civil servants puts the entire function of government to a standstill. Not a good idea.
And governments appointing their own civil servants is an even worse idea. The whole point of the Civil Service is to be independent. The moment elected Governments appoint their own civil servants is the point where the civil service is politicised. You also remove the civil servants being able to function due to longevity when there are no elected governments and lose the established expertise.
But I'd much rather they were independent than selected.
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by Hirota » Tue May 30, 2023 2:21 pm
I ideally want a civil service filled with people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work and may lead them to obstruct the policies of the democratically elected government on the basis of their personal morality - hence the "nonpartisan."
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 2:26 pm
Hirota wrote:I ideally want a civil service filled with people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work and lead them to obstruct the policies of the democratically elected government simply on the basis of their personal morality - hence the "nonpartisan."Fartsniffage wrote:
You would want a Civil Service filled with extreme centrists?
Right now, as demonstrated by the examples I cited regarding Benn and Corbyn, and experienced with this proposed strike action, we have an aggregate of civil servants sitting somewhere around the center who can sometimes curb the policies of the elected government (for good or ill). I personally find that less desirable, but it's the reality of the situation, and they are not picked by the government - hence the "independent"
I personally don't want selected civil servants.
I can't make it much clearer than that. If you think any of that equates to "extreme centrism" that's your opinion, not mine.
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by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 2:54 pm
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 3:02 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Mildly disagree Celrit. The job of the civil servant is to inform the government what you expect the proposed action will cause based on your experience. If they disagree with you, then you say "We'll see" and then enact it anyway. Only the most obstinate idiots will continually ignore that advise after that happens a few times, at which point they start dragging their feet a little (Which I disapprove of).
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by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 3:02 pm
Celritannia wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:Mildly disagree Celrit. The job of the civil servant is to inform the government what you expect the proposed action will cause based on your experience. If they disagree with you, then you say "We'll see" and then enact it anyway. Only the most obstinate idiots will continually ignore that advise after that happens a few times, at which point they start dragging their feet a little (Which I disapprove of).
And if they are trying to enact something where the evidence shows it is unfeasible, taxpayers' money is wasted.
by Fartsniffage » Tue May 30, 2023 3:03 pm
Hirota wrote:I ideally want a civil service filled with people who do not have their private opinions influence their ability to do their work and may lead them to obstruct the policies of the democratically elected government on the basis of their personal morality - hence the "nonpartisan."Fartsniffage wrote:
You would want a Civil Service filled with extreme centrists?
Right now, as demonstrated by the examples I cited regarding Benn and Corbyn, and experienced with this proposed strike action, we have an aggregate of civil servants sitting somewhere around the center who can sometimes curb the policies of the elected government (for good or ill) through action or inaction. I personally find that less desirable, but it's the reality of the situation at the moment, and they are not picked by the government - hence the "independent"
I personally don't want selected civil servants.
I can't make it much clearer than that. If you think any of that equates to "extreme centrism" that's your opinion, not mine.
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 3:04 pm
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by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 3:06 pm
Celritannia wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
That's what elections are for.
Which can be too late to remove the problem or the same party gets elected for an extended period of time in which the governing party has absolute control of the legislature.
Elections are not the be-all-end-all. If something is unfeasible, it should be mentioned as such and then try and find a new way of approaching the situation.
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 3:09 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Celritannia wrote:
Which can be too late to remove the problem or the same party gets elected for an extended period of time in which the governing party has absolute control of the legislature.
Elections are not the be-all-end-all. If something is unfeasible, it should be mentioned as such and then try and find a new way of approaching the situation.
You can absolutely tell your boss that you think their plan isn't going to work and caution against it, as well as give your reasoning why. But they are the peoples representative and ultimate decider. It would be wildly inappropriate to just tell them "I don't like what you're doing so i'm not going to do it.". I think pretty much the only time i'd say that reaction is appropriate is when they order an illegal action, including under international law.
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by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 3:10 pm
Celritannia wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
You can absolutely tell your boss that you think their plan isn't going to work and caution against it, as well as give your reasoning why. But they are the peoples representative and ultimate decider. It would be wildly inappropriate to just tell them "I don't like what you're doing so i'm not going to do it.". I think pretty much the only time i'd say that reaction is appropriate is when they order an illegal action, including under international law.
I never said the civil service would take over the jobs of the elected government. I am saying that the civil service should point out the flaws in the policy as unfeasible, and then work a way around it with the Minister.
Although, I am opposed to the Westminster PArliamentary System.
by Celritannia » Tue May 30, 2023 3:12 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Celritannia wrote:
I never said the civil service would take over the jobs of the elected government. I am saying that the civil service should point out the flaws in the policy as unfeasible, and then work a way around it with the Minister.
Although, I am opposed to the Westminster PArliamentary System.
You can point out the flaws in the policy but if they just command you to do it anyway, that's that. If they say "Oh, how could we avoid those flaws?" then that's the ideal situation.
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by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 3:17 pm
Celritannia wrote:Ostroeuropa wrote:
You can point out the flaws in the policy but if they just command you to do it anyway, that's that. If they say "Oh, how could we avoid those flaws?" then that's the ideal situation.
It is the ideal situation, but not always the case.
Again, the Civil Service, through experience, should be able to say something is unachievable.
by Fartsniffage » Tue May 30, 2023 3:19 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Celritannia wrote:
It is the ideal situation, but not always the case.
Again, the Civil Service, through experience, should be able to say something is unachievable.
This is where carefully worded replies come in.
"I want you to grow GDP by 1 billion percent."
"You want me to focus on growing GDP until we've grown it by 1 billion percent? Did i hear that correctly sir?"
"Yes."
VS
"No I asked you to just straight up grow it by that much. Just do it."
"I don't know how to do that. Perhaps you can tell me."
"What are you some kind of idiot? Do X!"
"Okay. I will do X, but I do not think this will do what you think it will."
VS
"Just grow the GDP by 1 billion percent."
"I don't know how to do that. Perhaps you can tell me."
"Its YOUR job to figure out how!"
"Okay sir. I will research our options."
"Good."
*plays solitaire 9-5 and listens to economics podcasts*.
----
There's always options beyond usurping the ministers power.
by Ostroeuropa » Tue May 30, 2023 3:20 pm
Fartsniffage wrote:
Can you two just get a room?
by Fartsniffage » Tue May 30, 2023 3:23 pm
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