Ripping Off The Bandage: Fascism, How Do You Feel?

[Rakhalia]

whether a government “wins out” is not the same as whether it actually helped people. it’s a metric, but not the primary one.

A government only has to keep on existing. Who's won? The tin-pot despot reigning over a backwater for decades, or a series of ill-paced democratic reforms causing the collapse of a government?

where did I do that?

When you drew the line between what you considered a "democracy", and what you considered a "dictatorship".

if you had quoted the rest of my post where I explained that dictatorships are bad because they eventually become out of touch with society and work to its detriment, this argument would’ve been a lot more difficult to make. convenient.

How so?

who is part of the proletariat?

wage-labourers whose main mode of productive operation is through property they don't own, i.e. propertyless wage-labourers

This is why upholding democracy is so important. Democracy provides a platform in which it is possible to hold governments accountable for their actions and to ensure that they are acting in the best interests of their citizens and the broader global community.

Why would the population of one of these "democracies" care if their existence is fueled by suffering? They surely don't right now.

[Observation Post 13]

Rakhalia brought up a point that governments may act in self-interested manners and may use various tactics to distract or placate citizens in order to prevent them from challenging the ruling body's power. Therefore, it is the role of citizens to hold their governments accountable and to ensure that they are acting in a responsible and transparent manner.

There are a number of ways that citizens can hold their governments accountable:

Participating in the democratic process: Voting in elections and participating in other forms of political engagement, such as attending town hall meetings or contacting elected officials, can help hold governments accountable and ensure that they are responsive to the needs of their citizens.

Supporting independent media: Independent media can play a critical role in holding governments accountable by reporting on their actions and policies. Supporting independent media outlets can help ensure that there is a diverse range of viewpoints and perspectives represented in the media.

Engaging in activism and advocacy: Participating in protests, signing petitions, and supporting advocacy groups can help hold governments accountable by bringing attention to important issues and exerting pressure on decision-makers.

Using social media: Social media platforms can be powerful tools for holding governments accountable by amplifying the voices of citizens and bringing attention to issues of concern.

Supporting transparency: Supporting organizations and initiatives that promote transparency and accountability can help hold governments accountable by shining a light on their actions and policies.

It's a collective effort and the actions of individual citizens can have a powerful impact. By working together, we can help ensure that our governments are accountable and responsive to our needs and concerns.

[Ifreann]

I remember that story. Weil heard about a guy at her kid's school who had shared a nude picture his girlfriend sent him and was thus rightly thought of as a bad dude by his peers and somehow concluded that the problem here was the last bit and not the first bit. Weird thing to bring up to criticise the left.

"People at his school thought he was bad" nope. It extended far, far beyond that.

Yeah, Weil was also really weird about how hot she seems to think the teenagers involved are.

[Necroghastia]

Interesting that no leftists have been able to explain how freezing truckers bank accounts is actually "resisting fascism" yet.

are we talking about the truckers who were in essence promoting bioterrorism

[Fifth Jellian Republic]

Interesting that no leftists have been able to explain how freezing truckers bank accounts is actually "resisting fascism" yet.

are we talking about the truckers who were in essence promoting bioterrorism

Besides the fact they tried to jam up road systems

[Khurkhogur]

Source?

You removed my links to Wikipedia..
And do you Also want a source on why 2 + 2 = 4 ?
This is getting ridiculous…

I'm just joshing you a little mate you're a good sport

the primary point of a government is to improve the lives of its citizens (while maintaining rights and liberties).

No. The primary role of a government (as an organised political body, i.e. the state) is its own self-perpetuation, and the government which lasts the longest is the one which ultimately wins out. You don't get to sort them into "good" and "bad" baskets based on your own personal preferences. Fascism isn't bad because it's "dictatorial", it's bad because of what that dictatorship does, which is irrelevant to the objective of "government" as a term.

incroyablement basé
it's always good when a marxist can be a good realist

[Khurkhogur]

No, progressivism is changing socioeconomic structures for the purpose of progress. Progress meaning a series of shifts and changes that will eventually reach an endpoint. That's a very particular idea. Don't ignore the "endpoint" bit because that's crucial.

movement ”backwards” towards feudalism or any other old structure is also “progress” under this definition. this isn’t what people use “progress” to mean. generally, it is used to mean an increase in rights and equality.

People use progress to mean "an increase in rights and equality" when they discuss politics in children's books' terms. That is not an appropriate definition, because non-liberal progressives obviously had different (but sometimes aligned) notions of progress.
For example, many fascists thought that part of progress was eliminating people who were "unfit to survive." They very clearly viewed this in terms of progress, as in "the world will improve once we eliminate everyone who's disabled" or whatever. How does that fit your definition of "increasing rights and equality?" It doesn't.
And to prove my point that your (liberal) definition of progress and fascism's definition of progress are fundamentally intertwined, I'll point out that fascists believed in providing services such as public healthcare or transport, or reorganizing the family so that children would become more autonomous (and more connected to the state/nation). You get the point. There needs to be a blanket definition of progress here, because there are common ideas of progress in modernistic thought that diverge very sharply at some points. Progress can't be defined as "good thing happen."
And finally, the idea that we should move backwards can't be equated with my definition of progress, because it's, well, a reaction. Hence reactionary. There's no vision in trying to pull things back to how things were, it's just a kneejerk reaction. Fascists, communists, and liberal-democrats all have an idea of how they want the world to end up looking and the means they're going to use to get there. Reactionaries are negative, they just oppose changes that have already happened.

but why stop there? reactionaries who embrace feudalism or other medieval thought might think they’re opposing progress, but they’ve only ended up adopting earlier notions of progress! primitivism for the win!
that isn’t how this works. people are reactionary because they oppose the current progress. they’re reacting. you can’t react to something that’s been established for centuries.

Except if you'd read my other posts, I addressed this. The notion of progress I outlined is a product of capitalism and industrialism. In the feudal age and ages before it, people didn't have any sort of notion of "progressing to the end of history" outside of the religious notion of a judgement day (which really didn't apply to feudal or pre-feudal politics, seeing as they were generally interest disputes between aristocrats and royals or, in some cases, roving hordes and raiders).

[Stylan]

Interesting that no leftists have been able to explain how freezing truckers bank accounts is actually "resisting fascism" yet.

i mean i dont really think it's "resisting fascism", though truckers are cynical petit-bourgeois owner-operators who no principled marxist should be siding with -- the trucker thing is hardly a proletarian revolt

"Truckers are petit-bourgeois"
lol
gee i wonder why the working class doesn't support the left

[Stylan]

Interesting that no leftists have been able to explain how freezing truckers bank accounts is actually "resisting fascism" yet.

are we talking about the truckers who were in essence promoting bioterrorism

"not wanting to get vaccinated is LITERALLY bioterrorism, chud!"

[Stylan]

So this thread has helped us learn a few things about the principles of the "pro-working class" left.

1) Working class people who disagree with a minor aspect of liberal ideology are terrorists, and deserve to have their bank accounts frozen.

2) Ideologies the left opposes must be repressed, censored, and have its adherents barred from gaining any power.

3) Free speech is fascism. Restricting free speech, censorship - this is anti-fascism.

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

5) Truckers aren't working class.

Wow, I'm surprised the left hasn't won yet with amazing principles like these!

[Necroghastia]

are we talking about the truckers who were in essence promoting bioterrorism

"not wanting to get vaccinated is LITERALLY bioterrorism, chud!"

when you go on a cross country trip to revel about being unvaccinated and spread a plague across the land hell yeah it is lol

2) Ideologies the left opposes must be repressed, censored, and have its adherents barred from gaining any power.

3) Free speech is fascism. Restricting free speech, censorship - this is anti-fascism.

paradox of tolerance, yadda yadda

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

i mean if you think sharing a person's nudes without consent is "no reason" lol

[Khurkhogur]

are we talking about the truckers who were in essence promoting bioterrorism

"not wanting to get vaccinated is LITERALLY bioterrorism, chud!"

Tbf antivaxxers are idiots and there's nothing wrong with mandating vaccines
On the other hand, I see the concern with the covid vaccines since they probably weren't held under traditional levels of scrutiny for new drugs due to the pandemic. But they also clearly work. Everyone I've talked to that's had the vaccine and has gotten sick has basically barely felt the effects of the virus.

[Ifreann]

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

You didn't even read the source you cited. Embarrassing.

[Dalavi]

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

You didn't even read the source you cited. Embarrassing.

nudes are pretty bad it was blown a bit out of proportion dontcha think?

[Heloin]

You didn't even read the source you cited. Embarrassing.

nudes are pretty bad it was blown a bit out of proportion dontcha think?

No.

[Alcala-Cordel]

So this thread has helped us learn a few things about the principles of the "pro-working class" left.

1) Working class people who disagree with a minor aspect of liberal ideology are terrorists, and deserve to have their bank accounts frozen.

As a working class person who disagrees with liberal ideology, what? Vaccination isn't about ideology, it's about public safety.

2) Ideologies the left opposes must be repressed, censored, and have its adherents barred from gaining any power.

Yes. Fascism is bad and should be stopped.

3) Free speech is fascism. Restricting free speech, censorship - this is anti-fascism.

"Free Speech" is largely a buzzword people bring up when they don't want to be held accountable for their actions. People deserve the right to speech within reason.

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

What

5) Truckers aren't working class.

Truckers are working class. That doesn't change that the "freedom convoy" was fucking stupid and threatened public health.

Wow, I'm surprised the left hasn't won yet with amazing principles like these!

Nice strawman.

[Stylan]

"not wanting to get vaccinated is LITERALLY bioterrorism, chud!"

Tbf antivaxxers are idiots and there's nothing wrong with mandating vaccines
On the other hand, I see the concern with the covid vaccines since they probably weren't held under traditional levels of scrutiny for new drugs due to the pandemic. But they also clearly work. Everyone I've talked to that's had the vaccine and has gotten sick has basically barely felt the effects of the virus.

My point is that it is absolutely disgusting that the left cheered as the working class, its supposed "base of support," had their bank accounts frozen.

"not wanting to get vaccinated is LITERALLY bioterrorism, chud!"

when you go on a cross country trip to revel about being unvaccinated and spread a plague across the land hell yeah it is lol

2) Ideologies the left opposes must be repressed, censored, and have its adherents barred from gaining any power.

3) Free speech is fascism. Restricting free speech, censorship - this is anti-fascism.

paradox of tolerance, yadda yadda

You're literally a reactionary lol. You support the exact same positions William F. Buckley supported. You're a goddamn neocon.

[Stylan]

So this thread has helped us learn a few things about the principles of the "pro-working class" left.

1) Working class people who disagree with a minor aspect of liberal ideology are terrorists, and deserve to have their bank accounts frozen.

As a working class person who disagrees with liberal ideology, what?

2) Ideologies the left opposes must be repressed, censored, and have its adherents barred from gaining any power.

Yes. Fascism is bad and should be stopped.

3) Free speech is fascism. Restricting free speech, censorship - this is anti-fascism.

"Free Speech" is largely a buzzword people bring up when they don't want to be held accountable for their actions. People deserve the right to speech within reason.

4) Cancelling 17-year old boys for no reason is good actually.

What

5) Truckers aren't working class.

Truckers are working class.

Wow, I'm surprised the left hasn't won yet with amazing principles like these!

Nice strawman.

Not a strawman.

Interesting that no leftists have been able to explain how freezing truckers bank accounts is actually "resisting fascism" yet.

i mean i dont really think it's "resisting fascism", though truckers are cynical petit-bourgeois owner-operators who no principled marxist should be siding with -- the trucker thing is hardly a proletarian revolt

"truckers aren't working class"

"Free Speech" is largely a buzzword people bring up when they don't want to be held accountable for their actions. People deserve the right to speech within reason.

Oh so you agree Elon Musk has the right to censor whoever he wants right?

[Necroghastia]

Tbf antivaxxers are idiots and there's nothing wrong with mandating vaccines
On the other hand, I see the concern with the covid vaccines since they probably weren't held under traditional levels of scrutiny for new drugs due to the pandemic. But they also clearly work. Everyone I've talked to that's had the vaccine and has gotten sick has basically barely felt the effects of the virus.

My point is that it is absolutely disgusting that the left cheered as the working class, its supposed "base of support," had their bank accounts frozen.

I wasn't aware all working class people had their bank accounts frozen. Care to source that claim?

when you go on a cross country trip to revel about being unvaccinated and spread a plague across the land hell yeah it is lol
paradox of tolerance, yadda yadda

You're literally a reactionary lol. You support the exact same positions William F. Buckley supported. You're a goddamn neocon.

i mean if we're just gonna make shit up about people i could have a field day but i have more restraint than you apparently

[Heloin]

One of the least interesting political positions one can hold is clearly ideologically fascist but thinks that the perceived aesthetics Marxism is cooler. It fails at ideologically consistency in nearly all cases and relies on buzzwords and references before any understanding of leftist thinkers and philosophy. It'd be like trying to teach high level maths with only an understanding of a first years basic arithmetic.

[Picairn]

the primary point of a government is to improve the lives of its citizens (while maintaining rights and liberties).

No. The primary role of a government (as an organised political body, i.e. the state) is its own self-perpetuation, and the government which lasts the longest is the one which ultimately wins out. You don't get to sort them into "good" and "bad" baskets based on your own personal preferences. Fascism isn't bad because it's "dictatorial", it's bad because of what that dictatorship does, which is irrelevant to the objective of "government" as a term.

Do you think the self-preservation interests of a government and its citizens' demands for improvement have never intersected? Why did many governments bow to public pressure in history, then?

Further, governments aren't always cognizant or uniform in the need for self-preservation. Usually they are blinded by ideological tunnel-vision in policy implementation or fall trap to the cynical self-interested competition for power by different factions of the ruling elite to the point they collapse from internal instability or the backlash of their stupid actions.

A government only has to keep on existing. Who's won? The tin-pot despot reigning over a backwater for decades, or a series of ill-paced democratic reforms causing the collapse of a government?

Why is this a contest lol? All three types of dictatorships suffer from drawbacks that may spell the end of their own regimes if not addressed properly. The top leadership, its supporting elite, and policy approaches are what "win" or "lose" the self-preservation of governments.

[Stylan]

One of the least interesting political positions one can hold is clearly ideologically fascist but thinks that the perceived aesthetics Marxism is cooler. It fails at ideologically consistency in nearly all cases and relies on buzzwords and references before any understanding of leftist thinkers and philosophy. It'd be like trying to teach high level maths with only an understanding of a first years basic arithmetic.

Fascism is when you support free speech and every single leftist principle held before Occupy Wall Street.
I'm the one defending working class action, free speech, and opposing corporate and government censorship of speech. But I'm the fascist. Got it.

[Alcala-Cordel]

As a working class person who disagrees with liberal ideology, what?


Yes. Fascism is bad and should be stopped.


"Free Speech" is largely a buzzword people bring up when they don't want to be held accountable for their actions. People deserve the right to speech within reason.


What


Truckers are working class.


Nice strawman.

Not a strawman.

i mean i dont really think it's "resisting fascism", though truckers are cynical petit-bourgeois owner-operators who no principled marxist should be siding with -- the trucker thing is hardly a proletarian revolt

"truckers aren't working class"

Absolutely a stawman. You cherrypicked a few things, misinterpreted a few others, and put three it all together in a way you claimed represents the left.

"Free Speech" is largely a buzzword people bring up when they don't want to be held accountable for their actions. People deserve the right to speech within reason.

Oh so you agree Elon Musk has the right to censor whoever he wants right?

Elon Musk is an individual, so no.

[Alcala-Cordel]

One of the least interesting political positions one can hold is clearly ideologically fascist but thinks that the perceived aesthetics Marxism is cooler. It fails at ideologically consistency in nearly all cases and relies on buzzwords and references before any understanding of leftist thinkers and philosophy. It'd be like trying to teach high level maths with only an understanding of a first years basic arithmetic.

Fascism is when you support free speech and every single leftist principle held before Occupy Wall Street.
No my friend, you're just a confused conservative.

You don't want fascists to be held accountable for their own actions, but are using the term "free speech" to make it sound better.

[Heloin]

One of the least interesting political positions one can hold is clearly ideologically fascist but thinks that the perceived aesthetics Marxism is cooler. It fails at ideologically consistency in nearly all cases and relies on buzzwords and references before any understanding of leftist thinkers and philosophy. It'd be like trying to teach high level maths with only an understanding of a first years basic arithmetic.

Fascism is when you support free speech and every single leftist principle held before Occupy Wall Street.
No my friend, you're just a confused conservative.

Sharing nudes of teenage girls is not free speech.