[Abortion Thread] A Matter of Choice (NEW POLL!)

[Godular]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

I got COVID and took the vaccine 9 months later. Coincidence? I think not.

I'm human and I got COVID. Clearly, Leprechauns are real.

[Laasmistan]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

getting rid of the covid misinformation rule was one of the dumbest things the mods ever did

Did they really? Oh damn.

[Fahran]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

[Tarsonis]

1. You do not know anything about this topic. 2. Like this is just outright wrong.

1. I say that about you every time you pop in here but that hasn't stopped you yet.
2. Nope. The Catholic Church has a long and detailed history of editing the Bible to suit its whims.

For the record of anyone else reading this, this is demonstrably false. Archeological record shows quite the opposite. The Nestle atland chronicling of scripture and alterations show the canon of scripture to be remarkedly accurate to the original works. What he's trying to pass off as "editing" is are generally scribal errors. While there are a fair number of discrepencies that managed to become circulated, there are no major variations that change the meaning of the text as NHA suggests. This is simply a perpetuated falsehood.

Like how Catholic priests are the only ones not allowed to marry or have kids, not because it's Godly but because the Church wanted to be the first in line to inherit any land or side businesses they owned.

This is also demonstrably false as teachings on priestly celibacy go back as early as the 4th century and was already a doctrinal norm in the west early on. What NHA here is referring to is the Gregorian reforms of the 11th century, which did not institute brand new teaching so much as bound clergy back to previous teachings of which they were slacking on. Also, in general practice the 3rd son in a family became priests, and didn't stand to inherit much of anything. And children of priests typically became priests themselves.

Or the fact that Pope's were basically warlords for centuries?

Fair charge, but really has more to do with fudalism than anything else.

Or what about paying to get out of Hell, you know, the thing that spurred Martin Luther to write The 95 Thesis and start The Protestant Reformation?

This is also a perpetuated falsehood. Indulgences are remittance from purgatory, not hell, an important distinction. Martin Luther's contension was that the Pope had no jurisdiction to remove the burden of purgatory from people, beyond what he himself imposed on them. Why this myth about hell gets perpetuated is really mystifying considering a simple google search can bring up the 95 theses themselves. The selling of indulgences was admittedly an abuse, and corrected during the counter reformation.

[Fahran]

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

No. I want Uncle Sam to oppress me.

In all seriousness, I feel like the availability of artificial wombs would pretty much eliminate the moral dilemma completely.

[New Goshen]

"And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her,, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:22,23

There are more, but hopefully this will suffice.

[The Pacific Northwest]

I’m not sexually active either but I’ve looked into it. Because of some unfortunate events, I’m paranoid of having that choice (to not get pregnant) taken from me like it has been for so many others. Pregnancy in general is actually my worst fear.

I’d been taking the pill for years for other medical reasons and got the implant recently. Since it’s stuck in my arm it can’t be tampered with and I don’t have to worry as much. It’s comforting knowing I’m somewhat protected no matter what, but I’d love to not need to worry at all. Unfortunately that’s proving to not be possible. Hell a friend of mine’s mom is having issues getting approval for a hysterectomy and she has uterine cancer. I don’t have a medical reason so if she’s having problems, it’ll be impossible for me.

Ah, tokophobia? I might have that myself since I have a massive hang up on thoughts of pregnancy. Again, I definitely feel fortunate about having zero interest in having sex. It saves me a lot of stress and headache. If I was sexually active, though, then I absolutely would be taking all possible precautions. If I still somehow got pregnant then I would be aborting. My religion does not forbid it.

I’d never really thought about it before but now that you mention it yeah, that’s definitely an aspect of it. I’ve lived with various pregnant family members and it was really hard on them, and in a couple instances there was sexual assault involved. So I guess I’m just traumatized by the idea honestly. I just can’t imagine going through the process, much less unwillingly.

[New Goshen]

The vaccines are experimental and don't work. Everyone I know that was vaccinated got it, some really bad.

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

[Laasmistan]

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

Cool. I know multiple people who lost family members to Covid.

[Fahran]

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

I will reiterate that anecdote is not the singular form of data. I cannot explain specific personal experiences to you. I can tell you that vaccines that were developed to immunize against particular variants of COVID appear to have been broadly effective in those capacities. Certain vaccines may not have immunized against new variants, which could explain the high rates of infection you observed, but that doesn't suggest that vaccines were broadly ineffective. Vaccines lowered risk of infection and severe symptoms. Measurably. And the results have been confirmed by dozens and dozens of peer-reviewed studies. You can and should read them.

[HISPIDA]

"And the children struggled together within her; and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of the LORD. And the LORD said unto her,, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger." Genesis 25:22,23

There are more, but hopefully this will suffice.

counterpoint: genesis didn't happen and is largely a mishmash of creation myths from a myriad of cultures and mythologies at the time combined with a mix of actual jewish history and national foundation legends. hell, stories like the flood in exodus are likely adoptions of sumerian and babylonian mythology adopted by early jewish writers. genesis is a metaphor to show how humanity was created in the image of God, by the love of God, and that existence is a reflection of God's goodness. to take basically anything in it seriously --- from the earth being created in 6 days to adam and eve to sodom and gomorrah --- is dumb.

again, biblical literalism is fucking stupid and nobody outside of batshit fundamentalists or harold camping takes/took it seriously.

then again, that's for the CDT, not here.

[HISPIDA]

No. This is just wrong. I invite you to read the available medical research. Vaccine effectiveness has been quite high. I'm not asking you to just believe me, but please, please, please look at the data. One example. I have a literal list with thirty or forty sources for this though. And I will post them all if my hand is forced.

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

and i got vaccinated for covid. i had nausea for a few days and that was that. i've never had covid.

i guess that means the vaccines are foolproof and prevent people from ever getting covid.

anecdotes are meaningless. back up anything you say with data; but again, this goes to the covid thread, not the abortion thread.

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

[Godular]

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

and i got vaccinated for covid. i had nausea for a few days and that was that. i've never had covid.

i guess that means the vaccines are foolproof and prevent people from ever getting covid.

anecdotes are meaningless. back up anything you say with data; but again, this goes to the covid thread, not the abortion thread.

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

Too far into the realm of science fiction to be a feasible topic.

[Laasmistan]

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

Yes, thank you. I was trying to get the thread back on track, but it seems it didn't work. I'll copy/paste my post here for those who may have missed it:

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

[HISPIDA]

and i got vaccinated for covid. i had nausea for a few days and that was that. i've never had covid.

i guess that means the vaccines are foolproof and prevent people from ever getting covid.

anecdotes are meaningless. back up anything you say with data; but again, this goes to the covid thread, not the abortion thread.

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

Too far into the realm of science fiction to be a feasible topic.

still an interesting topic, admittedly.

[Reploid Productions]

Reminder: This is not the COVID thread or the Christian discussion thread. This is the one about abortion. Let's stay on topic.

[Tarsonis]

A condom does not address the issue of an unwanted pregnancy, not unless you're buying it from the vending machine inside a TARDIS.

---

I bet that's not true.

Actually, Islam and Judaism are both AOK with abortion.

All of the Abrahamic Religions are, actually. Except for Christianity, but even then, before the 1800's it was fine with it, before the Catholic Church against it, followed a few decades after by Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

So Christianity was ok with abortion between 25 BC-1800/1900 AD, and then Catholicism decided to shit the bed, again.

Won't speak for the other 2, but this is also a gross misrepresentation of fact on NHA's part. The relationship between Christianity and Abortion is a long and complicated one, but there's never been a time where Christianity doctrinally endorsed abortion. Explicit condemnation of abortion can be found in the Didache and several other 1st/2nd century works. How this condemnation was understood over time varied in severity and specificity. Disagreemements over abortion were not over its sinfulness or not, but rather what type of sin it was, and, much like today, when life/ensoulment actually began. It's fair to say that some figures were more permisive at times than others, but at no time was it ever sanctioned. Punishments varied from place to place and time to time, untill in the 16th century it was made excomunicable without restraint in the West.

Indeed the moral debate on abortion as we know it to day, i.e "a right to abortion" was a product of the 20th century.

Reminder: This is not the COVID thread or the Christian discussion thread. This is the one about abortion. Let's stay on topic.

Appoligies didn't see this and wont comment further, but some egregious misinformation on the subject was put out and needed correcting.

[The Pacific Northwest]

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

Yes, thank you. I was trying to get the thread back on track, but it seems it didn't work. I'll copy/paste my post here for those who may have missed it:

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

For me, it’s not about life, personhood, or innocence. It’s about bodily autonomy. The fetus didn’t actively choose to exist, so it didn’t do anything wrong in my eyes. There’s no malice. But to me the right to choose what you do or don’t do with your body is most important. I’m sure no one is pro choice for the specific reason of “killing babies”. It’s about bodily autonomy. Both the woman and the zygote/embryo/fetus are comprised of human cells, and those cells are alive. The woman didn’t do anything wrong, and neither did the fetus. So bodily autonomy is the deciding factor.

Artificial wombs would remove any moral dilemma in my opinion. If you put it in a machine instead, then no one’s autonomy is being violated. The fetus gets to do its thing and not negatively affect anyone else. There would be no pregnancy related health risks and discomfort for the mother if she’s not pregnant. If such technology were available (for everyone not just the rich) then having am abortion would be unreasonable in most circumstances. It could also be used to help women who are infertile depending on the cause, and if we’re assuming it would be possible to transfer it at any stage of development, it would actually make ectopic pregnancies viable, as well as pregnancies that need terminated late due to major health problems that have arisen in the mother. Of course with severe deformities like anencephaly or bilateral renal agenesis there wouldn’t really be a point in transferring it to a machine since it won’t survive. So barring that, I wouldn’t see a good reason for an abortion.

Of course the foster care and adoption system would need a major overhaul as well. Otherwise the technology would only be beneficial, unless there’s something I’m not considering. Unfortunately I really don’t think it’s possible.

[Laasmistan]

Yes, thank you. I was trying to get the thread back on track, but it seems it didn't work. I'll copy/paste my post here for those who may have missed it:

Okay, for the sake of discussion, consider the following scenario: artificial wombs exist allowing women to extract the fetuses from their own wombs and implanting them into those instead. They allow the child to develop as it normally would within a natural womb. Once the child is ready to be born the mother is given a choice to keep the child or give it up for adoption. Would you all still be in favour of abortion rights then? Yes or no? Why?

For me, it’s not about life, personhood, or innocence. It’s about bodily autonomy. The fetus didn’t actively choose to exist, so it didn’t do anything wrong in my eyes. There’s no malice. But to me the right to choose what you do or don’t do with your body is most important. I’m sure no one is pro choice for the specific reason of “killing babies”. It’s about bodily autonomy. Both the woman and the zygote/embryo/fetus are comprised of human cells, and those cells are alive. The woman didn’t do anything wrong, and neither did the fetus. So bodily autonomy is the deciding factor.

Artificial wombs would remove any moral dilemma in my opinion. If you put it in a machine instead, then no one’s autonomy is being violated. The fetus gets to do its thing and not negatively affect anyone else. There would be no pregnancy related health risks and discomfort for the mother if she’s not pregnant. If such technology were available (for everyone not just the rich) then having am abortion would be unreasonable in most circumstances. It could also be used to help women who are infertile depending on the cause, and since we’re assuming it would be possible to transfer it at any stage of development, it would actually make ectopic pregnancies viable, as well as pregnancies that need terminated late due to major health problems that have arisen in the mother. Of course with severe deformities like anencephaly or bilateral renal agenesis there wouldn’t really be a point in transferring it to a machine since it won’t survive. So barring that, I wouldn’t see a good reason for an abortion.

Of course the foster care and adoption system would need a major overhaul as well. Otherwise the technology would only be beneficial, unless there’s something I’m not considering. Unfortunately I really don’t think it’s possible.

Alright, thanks for your answer. I pretty much agree with everything you said here. And yes, the scenario is assuming the transfer can happen at any stage of pregnancy and it's readily available technology to those who need it. It's definitely an interesting hypothetical to consider and if science actually did this then I think it would be a wonderful compromise for those on both sides of the abortion debate. The transfer would not even be mandatory either so those who want to be pregnant still could be.

[New Goshen]

I am going by people I know personally including family. I had covid and so did my Mother, Aunt, Uncle and nephews and none of us were vaccinated. We all recovered with bed rest at home. My brother and his family got vaccinated and all got covid, my brother the worst, and he had a bad reaction to the vaccine. Everyone at my work place got it, vaccinated or not with no differences.

and i got vaccinated for covid. i had nausea for a few days and that was that. i've never had covid.

i guess that means the vaccines are foolproof and prevent people from ever getting covid.

anecdotes are meaningless. back up anything you say with data; but again, this goes to the covid thread, not the abortion thread.

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

I would think it would be a game changer. I can't see why anyone would object.

[New haven america]

Reminder: This is not the COVID thread or the Christian discussion thread. This is the one about abortion. Let's stay on topic.

Maybe the religious fundamentalists could stop arguing against it only on religious grounds...

[Spirit of Hope]

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

I'm all for medical advances, though I doubt they will be a viable replacement for abortion anytime in the near term.

[Tarsonis]

and i got vaccinated for covid. i had nausea for a few days and that was that. i've never had covid.

i guess that means the vaccines are foolproof and prevent people from ever getting covid.

anecdotes are meaningless. back up anything you say with data; but again, this goes to the covid thread, not the abortion thread.

back on topic: artifical wombs. yea or nay?

I would think it would be a game changer. I can't see why anyone would object.

1. All of Brave New World. Like,... all of it

2. Too much unknown. Pregnancy isn't just like a stasis chamber in which child is formed free of outside influence. There's integral bonding on a subconscious level that happens during pregnancy, and the relationship between mother and offspring is already forming. This is why people put headphones on their stomach and play classical music.

There's no telling what affect development removed from this natural integration could have on children.

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

There's no telling what affect development removed from this natural integration could have on children.

Relevant

[The Black Forrest]

And in preserving the purported right to life and liberty of a fetus which is incapable of feeling any semblance of pain or anguish, you are denying the same to women who are actually capable of appreciating that your self-righteous moralizing has thoroughly fucked them over.

That is absolute nonsense. There is no way you can prove the unborn baby can't feel pain. "Silent Scream proves the baby feels fear. The people claiming that film is misleading are wrong. All anyone on your side can argue is that somehow abortion is a justifiable homicide. To me, abortion is a holocaust and those doing abortions are guilty of crimes against humanity.

Ahh very zealoty statements. Hard core Christian? Muslim? No need to answer; don’t care.

Now. Do you know when the pain receptors activate?

Silent Scream is a pile of garbage. It’s only useful for “preaching to the choir”

Homicde, halocaust, crimes against humanity? Now you are just being silly.