[DEFEATED] Condemn Northern Borland... again???

[The Orwell Society]

Dr Justin Obama, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: Full support of condemning Northern Borland and Tzo, strongly against condmening East Borland and Deep South Borland.

Condemning Tzo? Good luck...

[Lile Ulie Islands]

So, the AGAINST leads by a mere six votes. This one is going to be close.

I definitely think there are some people out there voting AGAINST because of the CTE stuff.

[PhilTech]

Didn't expect that this resolution at vote is under so much hate just because the nominee CTE'd.

JESUS, I felt awful reading the now Condemn Tinhampton. I honestly feel very sorry for Ravana for being indirectly involved in this. If I have an RO who has an audacity to do that, I'll immediately have his/her position revoked...so unprofessional.

[Heidgaudr]

IC: Ambassador Trelstad stood up and cleared his throat: "In our enthusiasm to critique - rightfully - the horrors of unfettered capitalism, we have lost sight of the issue at hand. The nation of Northern Borland is not some villain we must condemn. Rather, they are victims of vicious megacorporations who, like locusts to crops, strip the land bare and drain all the wealth and vitality from the populace.

"Northern Borland has crumbled because finally there was nothing left to exploit. The government, made up entirely of corporate stooges acting for their companies and not for their county, has dissolved and these cronies can now go crawling back to their corporate overlords. Condemning the now extant nation of Northern Borland does nothing except put the blame on this puppet government instead of the actual perpetrators - the aforementioned megacorporations.

"This would be a travesty of untold proportions if passed. The citizenry who for decades had to live under this brutally exploitative regime will now be branded and reviled internationally for crimes they were never in a position to prevent. I urge all listening to cast their votes AGAINST Condemn Northern Borland."

---

OOC: I'm not a fan of condemning NB when in the past he was against stats-based C&Cs. I also don't think late-stage capitalism is a particularly condemnable ideology.

But most importantly, I struggle to justify any hypothetical condemnation based on stats and issue answering because I fear it can create a chilling effect on the most core part of NS' gameplay. Issues are meant to allow players to explore politics without any fear of actual consequences. A condemnation would fundamentally change that.

[Tiber and Rione]

Didn't expect that this resolution at vote is under so much hate just because the nominee CTE'd.

JESUS, I felt awful reading the now Condemn Tinhampton. I honestly feel very sorry for Ravana for being indirectly involved in this. If I have an RO who has an audacity to do that, I'll immediately have his/her position revoked...so unprofessional.

This legislation Condemn Northern Borland probably shouldn't, or at least no longer needs to be passed, but the author definitely doesn't deserve so much hate from the CTE situation.

Whoever wrote Condemn Tinhampton wrote it very shoddily, the format and wording isn't even close to decent.

[Istastioner]

This legislation Condemn Northern Borland probably shouldn't, or at least no longer needs to be passed, but the author definitely doesn't deserve so much hate from the CTE situation.

Whoever wrote Condemn Tinhampton wrote it very shoddily, the format and wording isn't even close to decent.

Yeah the author doesn't deserve the hate becasue of the "situation" with The Northern Borland

[Independent Republic of Boldonia]

But most importantly, I struggle to justify any hypothetical condemnation based on stats and issue answering because I fear it can create a chilling effect on the most core part of NS' gameplay. Issues are meant to allow players to explore politics without any fear of actual consequences. A condemnation would fundamentally change that.

This is kind of what I was trying to get at. The only real thing being condemned are NB's stats, it has nothing to do with what NB actually did outside of his nation stats. The purpose of a condemnation is to condem what the person behind the nation has done against member states, not the statistics behind the nation.

[Venusian Soviets]

Northern Borland is nonexistent

[The Orwell Society]

Northern Borland is nonexistent

Read the thread

[Tiber and Rione]

This legislation Condemn Northern Borland probably shouldn't, or at least no longer needs to be passed, but the author definitely doesn't deserve so much hate from the CTE situation.

Whoever wrote Condemn Tinhampton wrote it very shoddily, the format and wording isn't even close to decent.

Yeah the author doesn't deserve the hate becasue of the "situation" with The Northern Borland

I can't tell if this is agreement or sarcasm

[Les Iles Orientales]

I find this resolution and its description of Northern Borland amusing. Accordingly, I will be voting in favor of it.

[Trevekkia]

My vote was FOR and not solely because of the arguments in favor of the condemnation - but because of what this state means to the world with its lack of justice. It's high criminal population and copious wealth means that it will become a hotspot for black market arms deals and even, I should think, nuclear/biological weapons.

It is for THIS reason that I support condemning Northern Borland. Because of what will surely be a cause-and-effect situation that will destabilize world peace.

[Independent Republic of Boldonia]

Are you all really still voting because of nation stats? What's next, condem every single dictatorship, condem every capitalist? If this resolution is voted in it will set a bad precedent that any nation can be condemned just by the simple fact they have slightly different political views than you. This isn't what NationStates is about!

But most importantly, I struggle to justify any hypothetical condemnation based on stats and issue answering because I fear it can create a chilling effect on the most core part of NS' gameplay. Issues are meant to allow players to explore politics without any fear of actual consequences. A condemnation would fundamentally change that.

This is what NationStates is about.

[PhilTech]

Are you all really still voting because of nation stats? What's next, condem every single dictatorship, condem every capitalist? If this resolution is voted in it will set a bad precedent that any nation can be condemned just by the simple fact they have slightly different political views than you. This isn't what NationStates is about!

But most importantly, I struggle to justify any hypothetical condemnation based on stats and issue answering because I fear it can create a chilling effect on the most core part of NS' gameplay. Issues are meant to allow players to explore politics without any fear of actual consequences. A condemnation would fundamentally change that.

This is what NationStates is about.

Then by this logic, we should repeal Kindjal's commendation.

[One Small Island]

While it is disappointing to me that this is failing, what's even more disappointing to me is the reasons people are using to vote against.

To address the people who seem outraged that the SC is C&C'ing people over stats; I would like to point out that Commendations and Condemnations are In-Universe, Player-Based recognitions of achievement. Players who do things that are regarded as particularly "good" In-Universe get recognized for it with a commendation, and those who do things that are regarded as particularly "bad" in-universe are rewarded with a condemnation. The idea that there is an in-universe part of the game, such as stats, which players have dedicated not just years but decades of their life to dominating, and some people feel that such dedication should not be recognized is just beyond me. I do not understand what people are thinking with this argument.

To address the people who seem to dismiss this because Borland/Tzo has CTE'd... well, this is possibly our last chance. If this fails, and Borland/Tzo does not return we will not get another chance to recognize their achievement. For nearly 20 years Borland/Tzo played NationStates and sat at the top of the stats rankings. That's a special kind of dedication, and for it to go unrecognized just seems particularly sad to me; particularly for those players who existed, and dominated, before there were extensive and easily available guides to make picking options super easy.

To address the people whoa re voting against this because "Borland didn't want it", well I'd argue against that point too. This is what most people seem to be pointing to as evidence of that fact, but it's pretty clear to me from what is said there is that what Borland did not want was for a condemnation of their nation to set a precedent that could be used to condemn just any nation for their stats. If the commendation of Kindjal and the condemnation of Borland have taught us anything it's that stats based C&Cs are hard fought battles for even the titans of that particular gameplay niche; and getting one passed for just some random nation who is not at the top of the game would be a near impossibility. With that RMB post you can see that Borland even gave Tin advice for writing the proposal, which is not something I would expect from someone who was abjectly deadset against a receiving a C&C.

If I'm wrong and Borland is absolutely deadset against the recognition; then I would rather err on the side of recognizing them now while we can, and repealing it later should they return, then miss the chance to recognize them altogether.

[Morover]

As always, One Small Island has put the reasons that I'm disappointed that this is failing more eloquently than I ever could. I was simply not convinced that NB would actually be opposed to this, given what we know now.

[Comfed]

If I'm wrong and Borland is absolutely deadset against the recognition; then I would rather err on the side of recognizing them now while we can, and repealing it later should they return, then miss the chance to recognize them altogether.

I want to address this argument because it is ridiculous. This whole saga of a resolution flies in the face of Security Council standards. The only reason that this has even a grain of support despite being rammed through by Tinhampton with no evidence that the player actually wants it at all is because people are using emotional arguments about this being our last chance to give this player recognition. It's stunning that so many people have considered this to be an acceptable argument for a Security Council resolution, especially one which is being pushed through as fast as possible like this, without so much as the nominee's consent. If it weren't for the fact that this player just CTEd, nobody would have taken this resolution seriously, and the fact that they have CTEd now does not mean that we should degrade SC standards like this for the sake of a silly emotional appeal to our "last chance".

[West Barack and East Obama]

If I'm wrong and Borland is absolutely deadset against the recognition; then I would rather err on the side of recognizing them now while we can, and repealing it later should they return, then miss the chance to recognize them altogether.

I want to address this argument because it is ridiculous. This whole saga of a resolution flies in the face of Security Council standards. The only reason that this has even a grain of support despite being rammed through by Tinhampton with no evidence that the player actually wants it at all is because people are using emotional arguments about this being our last chance to give this player recognition. It's stunning that so many people have considered this to be an acceptable argument for a Security Council resolution, especially one which is being pushed through as fast as possible like this, without so much as the nominee's consent. If it weren't for the fact that this player just CTEd, nobody would have taken this resolution seriously, and the fact that they have CTEd now does not mean that we should degrade SC standards like this for the sake of a silly emotional appeal to our "last chance".

I do not support this proposal, but I find your argument also quite silly. I don't think a nominee should want a commendation or condemnation for it to be valid. Some people simply don't care about the WA and will be ambivalent, or even skeptical. In my view only nations who really stand up and declare their opposition should a proposal be dropped out of respect for the nominee. As One Small Island and others have pointed out Northern Borland's opposition (or support) to this proposal is ambiguous, so trying to shoot it down because of a possible misinterpretation of the nominee's true wishes seems silly to me.

Also, I don't buy that people are only supporting due to a last chance. Norther Borland had been touted as a possible nominee for commendation and condemnation way before people thought they would leave the game.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

....The only reason that this has even a grain of support despite being rammed through by Tinhampton with no evidence that the player actually wants it at all is because people are using emotional arguments about this being our last chance to give this player recognition.

Let’s face it Tin’s got form for this - “Commend Owlograd” anyone?

[Astrobolt]

If I'm wrong and Borland is absolutely deadset against the recognition; then I would rather err on the side of recognizing them now while we can, and repealing it later should they return, then miss the chance to recognize them altogether.

I want to address this argument because it is ridiculous. This whole saga of a resolution flies in the face of Security Council standards. The only reason that this has even a grain of support despite being rammed through by Tinhampton with no evidence that the player actually wants it at all is because people are using emotional arguments about this being our last chance to give this player recognition. It's stunning that so many people have considered this to be an acceptable argument for a Security Council resolution, especially one which is being pushed through as fast as possible like this, without so much as the nominee's consent. If it weren't for the fact that this player just CTEd, nobody would have taken this resolution seriously, and the fact that they have CTEd now does not mean that we should degrade SC standards like this for the sake of a silly emotional appeal to our "last chance".

Couldn’t agree more with this.

[Scherzinger]

We see no reason to vote in favor of a resolution that condemns a nation that no longer exists. If it passes it only reinforces the belief that some hold that the SC is a body that serves its own interests.

[Shaktirajya]

OOC

I wanted to bookmark Northern Borland for ideas on a rabid capitalist country and I notice that they have disappeared. Is it due to this resolution? 17 years of work down the tubes, eh? Strange.

Is this the equivalent of how corporations go overseas and employ sweat-shop labor because civilized countries mandate that they have to treat workers fairly ? I think so. Still dumb to nuke your nation over this. Wear the condemnation as a mark of pride.

[The Orwell Society]

OOC

I wanted to bookmark Northern Borland for ideas on a rabid capitalist country and I notice that they have disappeared. Is it due to this resolution? 17 years of work down the tubes, eh? Strange.

Is this the equivalent of how corporations go overseas and employ sweat-shop labor because civilized countries mandate that they have to treat workers fairly ? I think so. Still dumb to nuke your nation over this. Wear the condemnation as a mark of pride.

No, NB ceased to exist due to 28 days if inactivity.

[Pikachu Peoples]

Northern Borland is nonexistent

The vote began when that nation existed, then that nation disappeared because of inactivity during when the vote is ongoing

[Khirmania]

How can someone distort world census rankings in NationStates? I feel like this is a shitty proposal ngl.