by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:35 am
by Radiatia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:42 am
by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:44 am
Radiatia wrote:Oh wow it's this thread again, and not even on a Presidential election year!
by The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:49 am
by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:51 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Just for a little bit of historical context, the Electoral College is often seen as an institution unique to the United States, but in fact they were common in post-colonial Western Hemisphere nations in the immediate aftermath of independence, seen almost universally as a necessary means of offering a check on direct democracy.
The last Western Hemisphere country other than the United States to abolish its electoral college was Argentina, which last held a presidential election under an electoral college system in 1989.
So other Western Hemisphere countries have moved on, though conceding that post-independence instability in Latin America meant that their constitutional systems have been subject to rather more flux than in the United States.
by Free Algerstonia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:35 am
by The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:20 am
Neon Lunar Eclipse wrote:The Archregimancy wrote:Just for a little bit of historical context, the Electoral College is often seen as an institution unique to the United States, but in fact they were common in post-colonial Western Hemisphere nations in the immediate aftermath of independence, seen almost universally as a necessary means of offering a check on direct democracy.
The last Western Hemisphere country other than the United States to abolish its electoral college was Argentina, which last held a presidential election under an electoral college system in 1989.
So other Western Hemisphere countries have moved on, though conceding that post-independence instability in Latin America meant that their constitutional systems have been subject to rather more flux than in the United States.
Oh, interesting. Thanks for the historical context. So it was seen as necessary back then?
by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:22 am
The Archregimancy wrote:Neon Lunar Eclipse wrote:
Oh, interesting. Thanks for the historical context. So it was seen as necessary back then?
Yes. Most newly independent countries in the Western Hemisphere took steps to restrict direct democracy, though this took different forms in different countries. In the United States, the president was chosen by electoral college, and senators were initially chosen the state legislatures; and both electors and senators were initially chosen by state legislatures rather than by popular vote (only the House of Representatives was chosen by direct election). And that was in a system where only property owning males (and usually only white property owning males) had the franchise. We've already seen that Argentina had an electoral college through 1989, at least when presidential elections were taking place. Another fine example of the phenomenon is Simon Bolivar's 1826 Bolivarian Constitution for Bolivia, which instituted a president for life (who could nominate his own successor), a tricameral legislature chosen via an electoral college (so no direct democracy at all), and which specifically banned domestic servants and those not literate in Spanish from the franchise.
The concept that liberty and democracy are necessary congruent is a fairly recent development, one initially arising (within limits) in the 18th century, and only really becoming firmly established in the 19th century. As Charles I famously said in the second half of the 17th century before his execution, "For the people. And truly I desire their Liberty and Freedom as much as any Body whomsoever. But I must tell you, That their Liberty and Freedom, consists in having of Government; those Laws, by which their Life and their Gods may be most their own. It is not for having share in government, Sir, that is nothing pertaining to them. A subject and a soveraign are clean different things, and therefore until they do that, I mean, that you do put the people in that liberty as I say, certainly they will never enjoy themselves."
So the US Electoral College is a vestige of a period when even a limited franchise was distrusted by those who were responsible for framing new constitutional systems of government, and it manifestly failed in 2016 from performing its primary intended task: protecting the US constitutional system from the election of dangerous populist demagogues.
by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:29 am
by Countesia » Sat Jul 02, 2022 4:59 am
by Neon Lunar Eclipse » Sat Jul 02, 2022 6:30 am
by San Lumen » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:16 am
by San Lumen » Sat Jul 02, 2022 7:17 am
Exxosia wrote:It should be extended to gubernatorial elections within the states.
by Forsher » Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:24 am
by Alcala-Cordel » Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:39 am
by Informed Consent » Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:49 am
by Thomasi » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:10 pm
by The Archregimancy » Sat Jul 02, 2022 12:24 pm
Thomasi wrote:Yes, and it can be achieved via democratic states passing laws saying they will give their electors to the winner of the popular vote when the total number of states doing so reaches the number needed 270.
History Lesson
The origin of the electoral college starts at the constitutional convention, it wasn't a stroke of genius, it wasn't planned, it wasn't even wanted, it simply came to be because the large states wanted a popular vote and or the house to elect the president and the small states wanted each state to have one vote for the president. Well that wasn't going to work, so they decided that each state would get the same number of electors as reps and senators and that the state governments would decide how they wanted the election of the president to happen. That's it they literally punted the issue. Same with the supreme court lol.
by Concejos Unidos » Sat Jul 02, 2022 1:03 pm
Thomasi wrote:Yes, and it can be achieved via democratic states passing laws saying they will give their electors to the winner of the popular vote when the total number of states doing so reaches the number needed 270.
History Lesson
The origin of the electoral college starts at the constitutional convention, it wasn't a stroke of genius, it wasn't planned, it wasn't even wanted, it simply came to be because the large states wanted a popular vote and or the house to elect the president and the small states wanted each state to have one vote for the president. Well that wasn't going to work, so they decided that each state would get the same number of electors as reps and senators and that the state governments would decide how they wanted the election of the president to happen. That's it they literally punted the issue. Same with the supreme court lol.
In the early republic states mostly just let the state legislatures vote for president very few states used a popular vote. Eventually states started using the popular vote to pick the president.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:Why are you afraid of the idea of the great roman republic ? Are you homophobic?
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