Should the State of Israel have a right to exist?

[Grave_n_idle]

Irrelevant.

It's exceedingly relevant given we're talking about a movement for Jewish self-determination.

Nope. It's entirely irrelevant.

What I said is that THIS Israel has no history of being there before. Any antecedent culture is irrelevant.

[Fahran]

Nope. It's entirely irrelevant.

What I said is that THIS Israel has no history of being there before. Any antecedent culture is irrelevant.

I mean... not really. The country was not cobbled together out of nowhere. There's an enduring link between Jews and Eretz Yisrael that has been manifest in Jewish experience for two millennia. You're Jewish. You're well aware of this - or should be.

It's also not at all controversial to discuss the existence of Jews as one or many nations from at least the time when the nation emerged as a political and sociological concept. We discuss the Kurds and Palestinians in the same way. This is probably the most correct and consistent approach.

Lastly, Jews have been settling there, off and on, for millennia and, in fact, originated from there. Around half the population is from Arabic-speaking regions that expelled them. Again, I'm not really seeing the hang-up here. Immigration does not preclude a people from exercising self-determination, especially when they're not arriving in a preexisting nation-state.

[Elwher]

Nope. It's entirely irrelevant.

What I said is that THIS Israel has no history of being there before. Any antecedent culture is irrelevant.

I mean... not really. The country was not cobbled together out of nowhere. There's an enduring link between Jews and Eretz Yisrael that has been manifest in Jewish experience for two millennia. You're Jewish. You're well aware of this - or should be.

It's also not at all controversial to discuss the existence of Jews as one or many nations from at least the time when the nation emerged as a political and sociological concept. We discuss the Kurds and Palestinians in the same way. This is probably the most correct and consistent approach.

Lastly, Jews have been settling there, off and on, for millennia and, in fact, originated from there. Around half the population is from Arabic-speaking regions that expelled them. Again, I'm not really seeing the hang-up here. Immigration does not preclude a people from exercising self-determination, especially when they're not arriving in a preexisting nation-state.

While not arguing your overall point, I question the "originated from there" part. A valid argument could be made that the origin of the Jewish religion was when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, thereby formalizing the covenant between the Jews and Jehovah. Mount Saini is in modern-day Egypt; it was only much later that the Jews settled in modern-day Israel after expelling the tribes living there.

[Grave_n_idle]

Nope. It's entirely irrelevant.

What I said is that THIS Israel has no history of being there before. Any antecedent culture is irrelevant.

I mean... not really. The country was not cobbled together out of nowhere. There's an enduring link between Jews and Eretz Yisrael that has been manifest in Jewish experience for two millennia. You're Jewish. You're well aware of this - or should be.

On the other hand, the country absolutely was cobbled together out of nowhere. And that version of events is far more objectively true than the narrative you prefer. It didn't exist, then it did. It was a political state literally imposed on the existing states at the time.

You need to stop confusing Israels.

[Salus Maior]

I mean... not really. The country was not cobbled together out of nowhere. There's an enduring link between Jews and Eretz Yisrael that has been manifest in Jewish experience for two millennia. You're Jewish. You're well aware of this - or should be.

It's also not at all controversial to discuss the existence of Jews as one or many nations from at least the time when the nation emerged as a political and sociological concept. We discuss the Kurds and Palestinians in the same way. This is probably the most correct and consistent approach.

Lastly, Jews have been settling there, off and on, for millennia and, in fact, originated from there. Around half the population is from Arabic-speaking regions that expelled them. Again, I'm not really seeing the hang-up here. Immigration does not preclude a people from exercising self-determination, especially when they're not arriving in a preexisting nation-state.

While not arguing your overall point, I question the "originated from there" part. A valid argument could be made that the origin of the Jewish religion was when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, thereby formalizing the covenant between the Jews and Jehovah. Mount Saini is in modern-day Egypt; it was only much later that the Jews settled in modern-day Israel after expelling the tribes living there.

This is of course assuming that the Exodus story is strictly historical.

[Fahran]

While not arguing your overall point, I question the "originated from there" part. A valid argument could be made that the origin of the Jewish religion was when Moses came down from the mountain with the commandments, thereby formalizing the covenant between the Jews and Jehovah. Mount Saini is in modern-day Egypt; it was only much later that the Jews settled in modern-day Israel after expelling the tribes living there.

Judging by genetic studies and archaeological evidence, the Jewish people emerged from among the Canaanites and were distinguished principally by their religious customs and material culture as time passed, most especially beginning some time between 900 BCE and 600 BCE. There has been some suggestion by anthropologists that some small portion of the Jewish people or cultural conventions that influenced them may have originated east and south of the Jordan River Valley, most notably their principal and, eventually, sole deity. But by no means is it controversial to describe Jews, especially those dwelling in Israel at present, as a Levantine people.

[Fahran]

On the other hand, the country absolutely was cobbled together out of nowhere. And that version of events is far more objectively true than the narrative you prefer.

Just because you say this doesn't make it true.

There's a reason that Zionists, who belonged to Am Yisrael, preferred Eretz Yisrael as the place where they would found Medinat Yisrael. The reason is because their population originated there, their communities preserved religious and cultural ties there, their presence there remained, albeit in much reduced numbers, continuous, etc. A cursory reading of Jewish history will emphasize the importance of Eretz Yisrael to the collective Jewish psyche and you'll hear abundant mentions of Jewish communities in the Holy Land as well. You'll also hear about several Jewish states existing in the area at different times - from the Kingdom of Israel to the Hasmonean Kingdom to the Kingdom of Bar Koziba.

It didn't exist, then it did. It was a political state literally imposed on the existing states at the time.

To be clear, was it imposed on the Ottomans or on the British? I'm trying to figure out which imperialist power you believe should have had their administration upheld.

You need to stop confusing Israels.

They're literally the same group of people to a significant degree. The assertion that there's no cultural, religious, intellectual, or genetic continuity between the populations is ridiculous on its face. We can literally trace our steps through history and generations to arrive at Hillel and Akiva and the Hasmoneans. We can literally tell, based on surnames, what the function of certain people's ancestors in classical Jewish society would have been.

Are you going to argue that the classical Han having nothing to do with the modern Han Chinese next? Or that Mohammed and Dhu ar-Rumma weren't actually Arabs?

[Comoristaniat]

No. Absolutely not. I will jump into a black hole before I recognize the State of Isreal
Why?
Not because of its human rights abuses. But because most of its population is ((((them))))^jews

[The Republic of Western Sol]

No

[United Nations of Gaia]

No. Absolutely not. I will jump into a black hole before I recognize the State of Isreal
Why?
Not because of its human rights abuses. But because most of its population is ((((them))))^jews

I wonder if being openly anti-semitic is against NS guidelines or not.

[Luna Amore]

No. Absolutely not. I will jump into a black hole before I recognize the State of Isreal
Why?
Not because of its human rights abuses. But because most of its population is ((((them))))^jews

*** Warned for trolling ***

[Fahran]

No

Looks like we need twelve more Jewish states. We're now up to...

State of Israel
Kingdom of Samaria
Khanate of Khazaria
Banu Qurayza
Kingdom of the Himyarites
Exilarchate of Baghdad
United Socialist Mahallas of Esfahan
Free State of Jew York
Republic of Sepharad
Confederacy of Ashkenaz
Jewish Republic of East Prussia
Jewish Republic of Kaifeng
Beta Israel

[Grave_n_idle]

They're literally the same group of people to a significant degree.

Ironically, you already gave me the exact words I needed to refute this nonsense: "Just because you say this doesn't make it true."

[Fahran]

They're literally the same group of people to a significant degree.

Ironically, you already gave me the exact words I needed to refute this nonsense: "Just because you say this doesn't make it true."

So was Mohammed not an Arab?

[Archinstinct]

Ironically, you already gave me the exact words I needed to refute this nonsense: "Just because you say this doesn't make it true."

So was Mohammed not an Arab?

You didn't know? Mohammad was actually a cat all along!

[Fahran]

You didn't know? Mohammad was actually a cat all along!

Meowhammed. Purs be upon him.

That would be super adorable as a children's book. But, sadly, also very blasphemous.

[The African Emirates]

You didn't know? Mohammad was actually a cat all along!

Meowhammed. Purs be upon him.

That would be super adorable as a children's book. But, sadly, also very blasphemous.

Meccat can finally be real

[Salus Maior]

Meowhammed. Purs be upon him.

That would be super adorable as a children's book. But, sadly, also very blasphemous.

Meccat can finally be real

Fatwas incoming in 3...2... : P

[Fahran]

Meccat can finally be real

Fatwas incoming in 3...2... : P

I already made a joke else-where about having a fatwa issued against me by the Ayatollah.

[Swaraelia]

No

Congrats on solving the Middle East crisis. Nobel on your way out.

[Jewish Underground State]

It's exceedingly relevant given we're talking about a movement for Jewish self-determination.

Nope. It's entirely irrelevant.

What I said is that THIS Israel has no history of being there before. Any antecedent culture is irrelevant.

History only favors the more moral people if they are willing to fight and happen to win that fight.

Israel is here to stay. As moral as it would be for two states to exist I doubt that will happen.

[Neon Lunar Eclipse]

Yes.