MCU/Superhero Discussion Thread

[Ameriganastan]

It's all Nolan's fault. Thank God they eventually said "Fuck it" and just gave us metas, time travel, demons, lesbian clones and what have you.

What had lesbian clones? Something DC? And I suspect I know the answer to demons but I think superhero adaptations are more famous at this point for not having demons.

Well, demons tend to pop up when Constantine is hanging about.

[Forsher]

What had lesbian clones? Something DC? And I suspect I know the answer to demons but I think superhero adaptations are more famous at this point for not having demons.

Well, demons tend to pop up when Constantine is hanging about.

That show's pretty old, though (2014-15)... Arrow only started in 2012, for perspective. And it turns out there was a fairly successful movie back in 2005, as well.

What had lesbian clones? Something DC? And I suspect I know the answer to demons but I think superhero adaptations are more famous at this point for not having demons.

Legends of Tomorrow.

Ah.

The X-Men will probably get there eventually (Gabby, Laura's "clone" is gay... interestingly, there's a rumour that the original creators wanted to make X-23 herself gay; I'm not sure that stacks up).

[Ameriganastan]

That show's pretty old, though (2014-15)... Arrow only started in 2012, for perspective. And it turns out there was a fairly successful movie back in 2005, as well.

Well, not Arrow specifically. After his solo show got cancelled, the Matt Ryan version of Constantine became a regular character in the Arrowverse.

Also, that movie does not deserve the title. It was Constantine in name only.

[Cannot think of a name]

DC had Batman and Robin. Especially in the old series.

I thought Robin was Batman's Son?

One of them was.

[Ameriganastan]

I thought Robin was Batman's Son?

One of them was.

And he was/is the absolute worst.

[Forsher]

Movie adaptations of Robin, a video essay

[Eahland]

That show's pretty old, though (2014-15)... Arrow only started in 2012, for perspective. And it turns out there was a fairly successful movie back in 2005, as well.

Well, not Arrow specifically. After his solo show got cancelled, the Matt Ryan version of Constantine became a regular character in the Arrowverse.

Yeah, he spent a season or two as main cast on Legends. Also, speaking of LGBT representation, his romantic interest in a dude was a plot point.

The Arrowverse in general is gay as hell. When Batwoman first came out, they were trying real hard to position her as "first" something, but you have to pile on a lot of adjectives and qualifiers before it's not, "No, actually, that was Sara, like seven years ago." (Or Kara, or Anissa, depending on exactly what aspect you're talking about.) At the time Batwoman debuted, every Arrowverse team except Team Flash had at least one LGBT+ hero (and I believe Flash has rectified that since, but I've been too lazy to catch up with the last season and a half or so), every team had at least one woman, and Legends had a bisexual woman in a committed relationship with one of the aforementioned lesbian clones (whom she eventually married) in charge of the team.

Also, that movie does not deserve the title. It was Constantine in name only.

Keanu Reeves should just stick to playing confused valley boys.

Er, actually, no, I made the mistake of watching the new Bill & Ted movie. Keanu Reeves should retire.

[Forsher]

The Arrowverse in general is gay as hell.

If Marvel did make a Young Avengers show and if it was based on the Volume 2 team, iirc the only straight character in it was Kate. I've checked on Wikipedia and that seems to be the case, though since it keeps calling Ikol Kid Loki, it's not to be trusted for accuracy. But the team, at that stage, appears to have been:

• Kate
• Noh-Varr
• Hulkling
• Wiccan (Billy)
• Speed (Tommy)... while he's certainly not written as straight any more, I'm not sure if he was then
• America
• Loki

I believe a gag in West Coast Avengers (the modern one starring Kate, Noh Varr and America + Clint, Kate's new boyfriend, Gwen and Quentin) actually ran to the effect of

Kate: is there anyone I've dated who's straight?

However, Young Avengers probably isn't the gayest thing Kieron Gillen's ever written since The Wicked+The Divine also exists (though describing that as superhero fiction is something of a stretch; if anyone here likes Gillen's Eternals, however, The Wicked+The Divine would probably be something you like). Certainly, that better fits the terminology (as you might guess from its name) "gay as Hell".

[Christian Confederation]

One of them was.

And he was/is the absolute worst.

I thought he adopted like all of the sidekicks other than blood robin and the ones with living parents?

[Lord Dominator]

And he was/is the absolute worst.

I thought he adopted like all of the sidekicks other than blood robin and the ones with living parents?

Regardless of that, I believe it’s pretty clear Ameri is referring to the sole biological one (in the main continuity).

[Ameriganastan]

I thought he adopted like all of the sidekicks other than blood robin and the ones with living parents?

Regardless of that, I believe it’s pretty clear Ameri is referring to the sole biological one (in the main continuity).

Damian, yes.

[Cannot think of a name]

Dick Grayson, original Robin, parents were murdered trapise artists, went on to become Nightwing.

Jason Todd was originally the same deal but got rejiggered into a dude who tried to steal the wheels of the Batmobile. They took a poll and readers voted for him to die so he got the shit beat out of him by Joker with a crowbar.

Tim Drake was a fanboy who figured out Batman’s real identity. His girlfriend Stephanie Brown took over for him or didn’t but then yeah she did. Also did a spin as Batgirl.

Damien Wayne was the result of Talia a Goul or however it’s spelled and Batman doing the mommy daddy dance. He was a bit of a brat. Or is, I don’t know.

[Forsher]

Ah, so DSMoM

Well, there weren't really any demons as such. Plenty of references to the existence of the same, but no demons as such.

I liked it. Quite a lot actually. Even if I had picked up several spoilers in the last few days from this thread.

I'll start with the negatives...

America was nerfed. Look, we've talked about the gay thing already but I can totally see why you lot didn't realise the character's gay in the comics. Of course, to my actor age conspiracy theory brain, the text of the movie just seems to back up what I was saying.

Black Bolt was also nerfed... it's not just his voice. I get it, Black Bolt and Captain Marvel in the same group is pretty superfluous, but as much as I was never really a fan of Anson Mount's original interpretation, they didn't have to do him like that. The sign language is still a complete betrayal, though the other aspects were dramatic improvements.

There were also a couple of moments where the dialogue was a bit wooden or the delivery was a bit off, but I think they balanced the humour a lot better than No Way Home did (which had some truly cringeworthy dialogue, literally some of the worst material in the MCU). However, I've been getting a bit paranoid about this stuff lately.

And most horribly, they also did bloody John Krasinski. His very lame death was much appreciated. I forgot he might be in this movie. I should've pre-spoiled that as I did with the other two Spider-Men.

Next I'll mention the, er, tives...

I'll need to rewatch the Illuminati Incursion explanation again. It kind of ended up in one ear and out the other. My mind was a bit distracted with (a) hating John Krasinski and (b) comparing how they were adapting Strange's arc in the comics storyline to what they did here (it was actually pretty smooth, surprisingly... I've not liked any adaptation of source material I know previously). I think the crux was some basic Amber Spyglass stuff but explained in a way that allows a multiversal being like America to not be a problem (she doesn't dream).

Hmm... I guess I really had only the one, er, tive. No, wait, I remember the other one. I am now convinced Elizabeth Olsen had a nose job. For context, I read this inane review of WandaVision back when and the author was just going on about how their two friends ignored the show to argue about whether Olsen had a nose job or not. It's become distracting. I'll have to watch Wind River again to detox or something.

(Wind River is the contemporary Western where Hawkeye teams up with FBI Wanda to investigate a murder-rape on a reservation. It's good enough that it doesn't really deserve such a trivialising synopsis.)

So, finally, the positives...

I think this was actually a very coherent and focussed film. I mean, yes, NWH didn't end up being a jumbled mess as I feared it might, but it was a bit overstuffed with difficult to follow villain motivations. This, in contrast, doesn't require you to stop and think about why anyone was doing anything. I have come across a convincing explanation for Marko's actions but given I can't remember what it was, you can see the issue. I guess DSMoM reminds me a bit of a Discworld review I saw once.

In the review, the writer suggested Pratchett kept trying to tell the same story as if he was never quite satisfied with the previous one. For example, most of the Watch books are about trying to replace Vetinari with a king. The general point gets, ironically, stuck on Carrot (it's ironic because that's what happens in universe). I can't remember the exact line but Carrot actually even goes as far to say something like, "I want them to do the right thing because they should, not because Captain Carrot is good at being obeyed". However, the best version of this "palace coup" storyline is widely recognised to be the one where Carrot can't be part of the plot. (And the best Carrot books are the ones where they leave Ankh-Morpork.)

That's a very long and convoluted way of saying that I think DSMoM tells the same basic story that NWH was trying to do, just better.

Anyway, more positives:

• the visuals were really impressive and some of the action was every bit as creative as we might have hoped for
• I was never actually a fan of 199999 so good riddance, bring on the MCU as an adaptation of 616 rather than merely being co-existent in the same multiverse (which already fit very oddly with Time Runs Out, which literally destroyed every universe except 616, and the penultimate one was 1610)
• As much as it bodes ill for Reed and Black Bolt and the X-Men going forwards, I'm glad they actually used the same actors to do multiversal versions... it really is such a much better way of doing the concept
• Black Bolt!
• moral clarity regarding Wanda!
• Comprehensible ethics! (I've been talking about Chibnall's Doctor Who again, last night... it's on my mind)

Also stray Ms Marvel S1E2 thoughts (I didn't get round to watching E3 today and only watched E2 yesterday because reasons)...

I've never liked these YA Bildungsroman stories particularly much and this stuff with Kamran was looking much too much like the love triangle version. On the plus side, the way the episode ends suggests "false romantic lead" is not the role of Kamran in the story. On the down side, the way the episode ends suggests it's got a bit of a WandaVision problem in that the specific choice of plot is going to end up getting rid of what was unique about the show. Hopefully I'm wrong but...

Also, major genie fears.

[Pasong Tirad]

Ms. Marvel is just such an enjoyable watch.

[New Visayan Islands]

I'll need to rewatch the Illuminati Incursion explanation again. It kind of ended up in one ear and out the other. My mind was a bit distracted with (a) hating John Krasinski and (b) comparing how they were adapting Strange's arc in the comics storyline to what they did here (it was actually pretty smooth, surprisingly... I've not liked any adaptation of source material I know previously). I think the crux was some basic Amber Spyglass stuff but explained in a way that allows a multiversal being like America to not be a problem (she doesn't dream).

Generally, the explanation I walked away with is that multiversal travel in itself doesn’t cause problems, it’s the more “unnatural” dreamwalking that does. Not clear where the crossovers from NWH fall on that, since they’re pretty obviously not. regular universe hopping, but also aren’t running on super-evil dark magic stuff like dreamwalking.

[Christian Confederation]

Dick Grayson, original Robin, parents were murdered trapise artists, went on to become Nightwing.

Jason Todd was originally the same deal but got rejiggered into a dude who tried to steal the wheels of the Batmobile. They took a poll and readers voted for him to die so he got the shit beat out of him by Joker with a crowbar.

Tim Drake was a fanboy who figured out Batman’s real identity. His girlfriend Stephanie Brown took over for him or didn’t but then yeah she did. Also did a spin as Batgirl.

Damien Wayne was the result of Talia a Goul or however it’s spelled and Batman doing the mommy daddy dance. He was a bit of a brat. Or is, I don’t know.

Then there are like 3 Batgirls. OG, the blonde one, and the deaf one

[Eahland]

That CGI opening was awfully... CGI.

It makes no sense for the MCU to be 616. Maybe 838 uses a different numbering scheme than we do in this universe. (But why would they number their own universe 838, then?)

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

The third eye effect, especially in the final end credits scene, was super-cheesy.

When street vendor dude's hand went bad, he should have lopped it off and replaced it with a chainsaw. Also, Strange is a huge dick. Dude just wanted to be paid for the pizza. Disproportionate retaliation, anyone?

[Kiddian States]

That CGI opening was awfully... CGI.

It makes no sense for the MCU to be 616. Maybe 838 uses a different numbering scheme than we do in this universe. (But why would they number their own universe 838, then?)

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

The third eye effect, especially in the final end credits scene, was super-cheesy.

When street vendor dude's hand went bad, he should have lopped it off and replaced it with a chainsaw. Also, Strange is a huge dick. Dude just wanted to be paid for the pizza. Disproportionate retaliation, anyone?

I totally agree on the last one. Could’ve made it three hours instead of 3 WHOLE WEEKS. Seriously, it’s a bit much

[Christian Confederation]

So Doctor Strange...

Scarlett Witch didn't die at end right?

[Eahland]

So Doctor Strange...

Scarlett Witch didn't die at end right?

No body, no death.

Hell, it's a superhero show. Even if there's a body, that's no guarantee of death.

[Tarsonis]

So Doctor Strange...

Scarlett Witch didn't die at end right?

No body, no death.

Hell, it's a superhero show. Even if there's a body, that's no guarantee of death.

https://youtu.be/wn5K9S3kNo4

relevant

[Eahland]

That CGI opening was awfully... CGI.

It makes no sense for the MCU to be 616. Maybe 838 uses a different numbering scheme than we do in this universe. (But why would they number their own universe 838, then?)

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

The third eye effect, especially in the final end credits scene, was super-cheesy.

When street vendor dude's hand went bad, he should have lopped it off and replaced it with a chainsaw. Also, Strange is a huge dick. Dude just wanted to be paid for the pizza. Disproportionate retaliation, anyone?

I totally agree on the last one. Could’ve made it three hours instead of 3 WHOLE WEEKS. Seriously, it’s a bit much

Three minutes would've been plenty enough time to make their escape. Beyond that's just superdickery.

He should've just made Wanda punch herself in the face for three weeks.

[Tarsonis]

That CGI opening was awfully... CGI.

It makes no sense for the MCU to be 616. Maybe 838 uses a different numbering scheme than we do in this universe. (But why would they number their own universe 838, then?)

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

The third eye effect, especially in the final end credits scene, was super-cheesy.

When street vendor dude's hand went bad, he should have lopped it off and replaced it with a chainsaw. Also, Strange is a huge dick. Dude just wanted to be paid for the pizza. Disproportionate retaliation, anyone?

I think the numbering is multiversal. In metacontext it'd be too confusing to keep track if each universe had their own number scheme. In story context it's probably based on the frequency each universe vibrates at or some thing like that.

[Forsher]

That CGI opening was awfully... CGI.

It makes no sense for the MCU to be 616. Maybe 838 uses a different numbering scheme than we do in this universe. (But why would they number their own universe 838, then?)

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

The third eye effect, especially in the final end credits scene, was super-cheesy.

When street vendor dude's hand went bad, he should have lopped it off and replaced it with a chainsaw. Also, Strange is a huge dick. Dude just wanted to be paid for the pizza. Disproportionate retaliation, anyone?

I think the numbering is multiversal. In metacontext it'd be too confusing to keep track if each universe had their own number scheme. In story context it's probably based on the frequency each universe vibrates at or some thing like that.

Apparently the Captain Britain corps came up with it originally. But that's sort of my point, the Captain Britain Corps were all killed... I can't remember by who... during the Incursion event.

Following Time Runs Out, the options for the MCU were always some extremely confusing fuckery where

1. we'd eventually watch the MCU get destroyed by an Incursion event (since it wasn't one of the last two universes left standing)
2. it's part of one of the earlier multiverses (eg Galactus' one) or a subsequent multiverse
3. Secret Wars (2015) was retconned and the destroyed universes were re-created, which is basically the first option but with extra convoluted steps

or it was never part of the same multiverse as the various comics ones were (the adaptation of 616 theory).

For my money, DSMoM and FFH both suggest Feige's gone for the option that lacks the confusing fuckery. And the reason I say this is not just because

616 was namedropped in both cases... and of course Beck was bullshitting... but that Incursions are very, very different in the MCU versus the comics. How they work is different and what happens after an Incursion event has concluded is also different, And if the Illuminati is right, how they're caused is also different.

My point being is the MCU has, with DSMoM, violated the established canon of one of the most significant and arguably the best crossovers Marvel's published in the last twenty years. Arguing over whether it's 616 or 199999 is just a distraction from the incompatibility of the two texts.

[Vassenor]

"X-avier"? I was under the impression that Chuck's name was pronounced "Zayvier".

It's been pronounced that way in every bit of X-Men media I can think of and every time Stan Lee talked about the character.