Anarchism, Arguments For and Against

[Darnavy]

The single most glaring flaw I can see with anarchism is a fundamental inability to properly defend itself without betraying anarchist values.

Who solves their problems with proclaiming a democratic nation?

[Hukhalia]

As Hukhalia said, many people don't see anarchism as practicable, but as a theoretical ideal, few see it as bad. Who wouldn't want the elimination of poverty and crime and the free provision of resources without the obligation to work?

Well, if you ever find a Genie you can go ahead and wish for that.

you'll be eating your fucking words when i get that FUCKING lamp

[Northern Seleucia]

Well, if you ever find a Genie you can go ahead and wish for that.

you'll be eating your fucking words when i get that FUCKING lamp

What if the genie refuses to help?

[Concejos Unidos]

Yes, the anarcho-syndicalist movement came out of the radical wing of the trade unions.

How far did they get in their movement?

Here in the States, Labor Day isn't on 5/1, but the whole reason Labor Day exists around the world is to honor the deaths at the Haymarket Massacre. Also, the 8-hour workday was primarily driven by them and other less radical trade unions. It was on the backdrop of trade union agitation met with brutal government violence that the US got its first labor and antitrust laws in the late 19th century. This was a big movement; Eugene Debs, a founder of the IWW, peaked at 6% of the popular presidential vote in 1912. The major anarchist union of the time, the IWW, was also one of the first to step away from racial discrimination. Most importantly, even though the radicals never took power, they pushed protection for workers and antitrust action into the mainstream discourse which led to federal laws significantly advancing labor rights. Unfortunately, with American entry into WWI, the government used pro-war patriotism and wartime legislation to effectively suppress the anti-war anarcho-syndicalist movement.

[Hukhalia]

you'll be eating your fucking words when i get that FUCKING lamp

What if the genie refuses to help?

violence

[Northern Seleucia]

How far did they get in their movement?

Here in the States, Labor Day isn't on 5/1, but the whole reason Labor Day exists around the world is to honor the deaths at the Haymarket Massacre. Also, the 8-hour workday was primarily driven by them and other less radical trade unions. It was on the backdrop of trade union agitation met with brutal government violence that the US got its first labor and antitrust laws in the late 19th century. This was a big movement; Eugene Debs, a founder of the IWW, peaked at 6% of the popular presidential vote in 1912. The major anarchist union of the time, the IWW, was also one of the first to step away from racial discrimination. Most importantly, even though the radicals never took power, they pushed protection for workers and antitrust action into the mainstream discourse which led to federal laws significantly advancing labor rights. Unfortunately, with American entry into WWI, the government used pro-war patriotism and wartime legislation to effectively suppress the anti-war anarcho-syndicalist movement.

Ah, shit, I had no idea that whole movement was anarcho-syndaliclism, it makes sense now.

What if the genie refuses to help?

violence

That's where the heavily armed part of your Marxism-Leninism kicks in, huh?

[Concejos Unidos]

Ah, shit, I had no idea that whole movement was anarcho-syndaliclism, it makes sense now.

To be clear, the late 19th and early 20th century American trade union movement was split between the anarcho-syndicalists and the less radical unions, the respective standard-bearers being the IWW and the AFL (the AFL won out and is now the modern monstrosity that is the AFL-CIO). The whole movement definitely wasn't anarchist and it's hard to say how many people were truly committed to the ideology, since you can go back and see wild fluctuations in IWW membership as strike waves started and passed.

[Jewish Underground State]

Finally fixed the new poll

[Salus Maior]

Well, if you ever find a Genie you can go ahead and wish for that.

you'll be eating your fucking words when i get that FUCKING lamp

I'd do so gladly. I wouldn't mind living in an Anarchist utopia.

It'd probably get boring after a while though.

[Concejos Unidos]

Finally fixed the new poll

What is "true anarchism"? In an ideology as diverse as anarchism, there is no such thing as "true anarchism." Anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, mutualism, etc. are all equally valid forms.

[Northern Seleucia]

Finally fixed the new poll

What is "true anarchism"? In an ideology as diverse as anarchism, there is no such thing as "true anarchism." Anarcho-syndicalism, anarcho-communism, mutualism, etc. are all equally valid forms.

Including Anarcho-Capitalism? I've always heard that was the big issue.

[Concejos Unidos]

Including Anarcho-Capitalism? I've always heard that was the big issue.

Anarcho-capitalism I don't consider to be anarchism. I can talk about how it is incompatible with anarchist philosophy, but that's opinion. The indisputable facts are that it is descended from a completely separate intellectual tradition, unlike the various left-anarchist traditions which share a lot of their intellectual figures and significant overlaps in philosophy.

[Northern Seleucia]

Including Anarcho-Capitalism? I've always heard that was the big issue.

Anarcho-capitalism I don't consider to be anarchism. I can talk about how it is incompatible with anarchist philosophy, but that's opinion. The indisputable facts are that it is descended from a completely separate intellectual tradition, unlike the various left-anarchist traditions which share a lot of their intellectual figures and significant overlaps in philosophy.

Ah, okay.

So, based on your opinion, why is it incompatible?

[Nevertopia]

The single most glaring flaw I can see with anarchism is a fundamental inability to properly defend itself without betraying anarchist values.

True. Even anarchists have to accept that a hierarchy of government is needed to properly address issues.

[Concejos Unidos]

Anarcho-capitalism I don't consider to be anarchism. I can talk about how it is incompatible with anarchist philosophy, but that's opinion. The indisputable facts are that it is descended from a completely separate intellectual tradition, unlike the various left-anarchist traditions which share a lot of their intellectual figures and significant overlaps in philosophy.

Ah, okay.

So, based on your opinion, why is it incompatible?

The hierarchy and oppression of the state is analogous to the oppression of the capitalist workplace. Anarcho-capitalists are therefore inconsistent in their opposition to hierarchy.

[Infected Mushroom]

The problems in my view are:

1. No state
2. No law and order
3. No military

I don’t like that.

[Concejos Unidos]

The problems in my view are:

1. No state
2. No law and order
3. No military

I don’t like that.

Shows what you know that you put no military. All historical anarchist territories were born out of war and fought for their existence.

[Jewish Underground State]

Including Anarcho-Capitalism? I've always heard that was the big issue.

Anarcho-capitalism I don't consider to be anarchism. I can talk about how it is incompatible with anarchist philosophy, but that's opinion. The indisputable facts are that it is descended from a completely separate intellectual tradition, unlike the various left-anarchist traditions which share a lot of their intellectual figures and significant overlaps in philosophy.

Does anyone besides ancaps?

[Concejos Unidos]

Anarcho-capitalism I don't consider to be anarchism. I can talk about how it is incompatible with anarchist philosophy, but that's opinion. The indisputable facts are that it is descended from a completely separate intellectual tradition, unlike the various left-anarchist traditions which share a lot of their intellectual figures and significant overlaps in philosophy.

Does anyone besides ancaps?

Left-anarchists are pretty united on rejecting them.

[Northern Seleucia]

Welcome to Ancapistan

[Kubra]

In its heyday, anarchism was generally the radical wing of the trade union movement, largely pushing for those who worked in a place of business to own where they worked and also to themselves make the decisions on the running of the business, which is why the only extant international anarchist org left purports to be a labour union and concerns itself largely with, you guessed it, unionising.

Hence the whole idea of anarcho-syndicalism?

yes, but in its heyday "anarcho-syndicalism" would have been regarded as a strange term, since it was the only thing calling itself anarchism that a person was liable to encounter outside of, say, strange and secretive political cells involving Russians.
In any case, the big defining aspect of anarchism was largely that it's internal bureaucracy involved a lot of procedural rules, largely on the matter of voting, that of course we're so even for the smallest administrative units. A joke would be that a household of anarchists would not be able to make breakfast without calling a special sitting of the household executive committee to decide on eggs or porridge before sending it down the greater household assembly for ratification.

[New Zoigai]

Anarchy is a goverment system that can never last more than 3 years, Someone is eventually going to take power.

[Kubra]

Yes, the anarcho-syndicalist movement came out of the radical wing of the trade unions.

How far did they get in their movement?

up until 1917 anarchism was the main strain of radical leftism. After was a bit of a moment, but even in 1936 the Spanish CNT could still mobilise tens of thousands of folks to fight on the frontlines of the civil war purely on their presence within the organised labour scene, far more than every other group prior to the reorganisation of the army.

[Comemierdas]

I think I belong to the faction believing that anarchy goes against human nature. Whatever group people might form, some kind of hierarchy will shape up sooner or later. If you institutionalize it, you made your first step away from anarchy. If you don't, you still have hierarchies, but more susceptible to arbitrariness. By the way, the bigger a group gets, the more people will actually prefer to be ruled rather than rule themselves. That's not to say they shouldn't have a say, but many can totally live with giving some general consent to the decisions of others every once in a while. So I voted for "anarchy is cringe".

[HISPIDA]

I think I belong to the faction believing that anarchy goes against human nature. Whatever group people might form, some kind of hierarchy will shape up sooner or later. If you institutionalize it, you made your first step away from anarchy. If you don't, you still have hierarchies, but more susceptible to arbitrariness. By the way, the bigger a group gets, the more people will actually prefer to be ruled rather than rule themselves. That's not to say they shouldn't have a say, but many can totally live with giving some general consent to the decisions of others every once in a while. So I voted for "anarchy is cringe".

'm not one to defend anarchists but the "human nature" argument kinda sucks? it implies a static and unchanging human nature but that's very obviously not true