[DRAFT] Condemn The Communist Bloc

[Peace and Love but Better]

I'm going to go out on a limb and state that a moderator saying a region should be blacklisted is a bit beyond the just "posting like a regular user. " like yall have more power and thus more responsibility than regular users, so it reads more like a threat
But I don't expect telling the moderators to investigate their own behavior is gonna get me far, anyhow. Whether it's acceptable according to the staff team or not I stand by that I think it's not an appropriate way for a site mod to act and leave it at that. My opinions on the proposal are the same, its not in the spirit of the sc and isnt well written, (further, TCBs stance celebrating genocide or famine (of any kind) is that we don't tolerate it, but thats a real world political issue that i dont think is relevant to the SC anyway)

viewtopic.php?p=39638108&sid=681fed1dc9bf1bd4bb8a620cad949aaa#p39638108

Again. Site staff are allowed to have opinions. He's not abusing his mod powers to sway this thread in any way whatsoever.

EDIT: hyperlink go brr

"We have investigated ourselves and determined that we have done nothing wrong." I understand this staff decision, but that doesn't mean I don't think mods should be expected to not so casually talk about blacklisting regions. Anyhow, this isn't really the place to talk about it, an SC thread for a poorly written proposal should never have been veered into the territory of real world genocides and famines.

[New Astri]

Thanks for this additional clarification. I'm hoping for your best successes in stringent enforcement of this policy.

i. feel like it's a given that we don't condone genocide. like i would have thought this was not something you'd need additional clarification to presume.

I’m not going to call for blacklisting, not really a fan of doing that barring extreme cases, but TCB does have a serious problem with this stuff. Do a quick search on their RMB and you’ll find some genocide downplaying. Their Discord has no shortage of it in terms of the Holodomor and the Uyghur populations in China. Feel free to hit me up for logs, I dropped some in the NSGP Discord earlier.

That said, this proposal is bad, by someone throwing stones from a glass house, and shouldn’t be entertained as a serious response to TCB’s problems.

Also, of all the things to criticize Sedge for, his post earlier isn’t a strong one to go for. If anything his pointing out of the tired and awful rhetoric Iota was using is fair enough to be quite honest.

obligatory "if you have concerns about tcb's mods or moderation policies dm one of our admins about it instead of hoping talking about in nsgp does something" reminder (micha or kirk would probably be best since preco is online significantly less often)

[Peace and Love but Better]

so what is the solution to this problem then?

Ideally it would come from within TCB on the part of administrators and moderators. Though given the apparent complacency of those people and TCB’s already dubious (at best) separation of IC and OOC issues, Im not holding my breath. My recommendation personally would be that people probably shouldn’t associate with or enable them whilst this behavior remains an extant problem.

What's dubious? We stick to speaking in OOC terms because we have a lot of members who struggle with understanding the IC/OOC divide.

[Quebecshire]

I’m not going to call for blacklisting, not really a fan of doing that barring extreme cases, but TCB does have a serious problem with this stuff. Do a quick search on their RMB and you’ll find some genocide downplaying. Their Discord has no shortage of it in terms of the Holodomor and the Uyghur populations in China. Feel free to hit me up for logs, I dropped some in the NSGP Discord earlier.

That said, this proposal is bad, by someone throwing stones from a glass house, and shouldn’t be entertained as a serious response to TCB’s problems.

Also, of all the things to criticize Sedge for, his post earlier isn’t a strong one to go for. If anything his pointing out of the tired and awful rhetoric Iota was using is fair enough to be quite honest.

obligatory "if you have concerns about tcb's mods or moderation policies dm one of our admins about it instead of hoping talking about in nsgp does something" reminder (micha or kirk would probably be best since preco is online significantly less often)

Considering the last batch of things sent to TCB admin regarding the behavior of its members (I’m sure you can infer what I’m talking about) has been met with a over a month of radio silence, forgive my skepticism.

This behavior has been going on for months. It’s not something you should really depend on a foreigner (who you banned from your server over a month ago anyway) to conduct a full investigation and report on.

If the admins are aware, then they’re complacent in allowing it to continue. If they aren’t aware by now, they’re not good admins and therein lies a different problem.

[The North Polish Union]

Thanks for this additional clarification. I'm hoping for your best successes in stringent enforcement of this policy.

i. feel like it's a given that we don't condone genocide. like i would have thought this was not something you'd need additional clarification to presume.

Unfortunately, in light of the recent posts by Quebec (who it should be noted I usually don't agree with ) I did a simple use of the RMB search function for "Holodomor" turned up these in only the first 2 pages of results.

I excluded posts by ex-nations, and nations who are no longer members of TCB, so all these are by current active TCB members.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45866365
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45865900
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45865613
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45864344 (grouping Holodomor victims with Hitler and Mussolini)
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45855296
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45462199
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45368718
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45368362
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45032485
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=43121756
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=42265419
None of these posts were suppressed, nor were the authors "yeet[ed] to TRR"

I acknowledged in a recent post that there is genuine scholarly debate over genocide question. Having had more time to process both the articles you shared yesterday and the content of most of the linked RMB posts, I can unequivocally say that they fall far from the direction of modern scholarship.

Having done a search for academic historical scholarship that disagrees with the genocide assertion (and limiting myself to English-language only, for the ease of discussion) we find the following:

Michael Ellman: argues that the Hołodomor is a crime against humanity but not a genocide; if it were then the Atlantic slave trade, atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and 1990s sanctions on Iraq are also genocide, when they aren't usually considered as such.

Robert Conquest: States that "[genocide] implies that somebody, some other nation, or a large part of it were doing it [...] But I don't think this is true – it wasn't a Russian exercise, the attack on the Ukrainian people." Acknowledges that Stalin "with resulting famine imminent, he could have prevented it, but put "Soviet interest" other than feeding the starving first thus consciously abetting it."

R. W. Davies and Stephen Wheatcroft: "We all agreed that Stalin's policy was brutal and ruthless and that its cover up was criminal, but we do not believe that it was done on purpose to kill Ukrainians and cannot therefore be described as genocide"

Ronald Grigor Suny: In comparing the Armenian Genocide with the Hołodomor, states that he believes that the term 'genocide' should be restricted to purely 'ethnocide' that is, the deliberate attempt to eliminate a designated group - active killing as in the Armenian Genocide and Holocaust rather than passive killing by famine.

Stephen Kotkin: "[famine] was a foreseeable byproduct of the collectivization campaign that Stalin forcibly imposed, but not an intentional murder."

Mark Tauger (he actually gets cited by some of the people on your RMB as agreeing with their position): "the result of a failure of economic policy, of the 'revolution from above. It is difficult to accept the famine as the result of the 1932 grain procurements and as a conscious act of genocide but the regime was still responsible for the deprivation and suffering of the Soviet population in the early 1930s, and if anything, these data show that the effects of [collectivization and forced industrialization] were worse than has been assumed."

Note that these are academics who I disagree with, but their assertions are far more within the realm of reason than the idea that the Nazis fabricated the Hołodomor to discredit communism and that the name was deliberately chosen to evoke similarity to the Holocaust.

Having read TCB's RMB, I am less comfortable now than ever following up on your invitation to join your Discord to 'debate' it. I am rather disappointed that my inquiries into TCB's position on this issue were derided as "bad-faith" and that outright historical lying is tolerated.

This is a contentious issue, and even given the most-generous-to-the-USSR interpretation still led to millions of deaths, and the victims should not be slandered by putting them in the same category as fascist dictators.

Unacceptable.

[Ashotu]

They banned me for "spam"
When spam is
------------
Post
AAAAHHHH
Post
AAAAHHHH
Post
AAAAHHHH

YES

That is…spam? What are you trying to say?

I tried to tell a joke and they banned me

[Mlakhavia]

i feel like considering how the status of the holodomor as a 'genocide' is an incredibly contested field by (modern) mainstream sovietology and even the fact that very few nations in the world officially recognise it as such, lambasting TCB for 'genocide denialism' seems bad faith when the whole matter is still up in the air in the mainstream, let alone among the broad scope of leftist ideology present in TCB

[Quebecshire]

Some consistency would do you well. Is the argument from people and figures in TCB "well if there’s a problem you should contact our admins", or is it "actually that stuff isn’t bad anyway"?

Both arguments are weak, but it would be wise to pick one and stick to it.

It’s not just the Holodomor, for the record. There’s plenty of alarming content regarding how China treats Uyghur populations amongst TCB members.

[Krajzovda]

Some consistency would do you well. Is the argument from people and figures in TCB "well if there’s a problem you should contact our admins", or is it "actually that stuff isn’t bad anyway"?

Both arguments are weak, but it would be wise to pick one and stick to it.

It’s not just the Holodomor, for the record. There’s plenty of alarming content regarding how China treats Uyghur populations amongst TCB members.

If this is in response to Mlakhavia, I would like to at least remind you that they are not a member of the government of TCB, and therefore their positions are obviously their own.

[Onionist Randosia]

i feel like considering how the status of the holodomor as a 'genocide' is an incredibly contested field by (modern) mainstream sovietology and even the fact that very few nations in the world officially recognise it as such, lambasting TCB for 'genocide denialism' seems bad faith when the whole matter is still up in the air in the mainstream, let alone among the broad scope of leftist ideology present in TCB

That is a valid point, however saying that the Holodomor was a Nazi fabrication is still a serious issue.

[Hecatie]

That is…spam? What are you trying to say?

I tried to tell a joke and they banned me

What was the joke?

[Fachumonn]

I tried to tell a joke and they banned me

What was the joke?

If they banned them for the joke, then why would they share that joke. *lightbulb*

[Hecatie]

What was the joke?

If they banned them for the joke, then why would they share that joke. *lightbulb*

Because "They Banned Me For A Joke" could range from an actual injustice to "They Banned Me For saying [Insert whichever -phobic slur you prefer]". Worth asking.

[The North Polish Union]

i feel like considering how the status of the holodomor as a 'genocide' is an incredibly contested field by (modern) mainstream sovietology and even the fact that very few nations in the world officially recognise it as such, lambasting TCB for 'genocide denialism' seems bad faith when the whole matter is still up in the air in the mainstream, let alone among the broad scope of leftist ideology present in TCB

I posted examples from said mainstream Sovietology arguing that the Hołodmor isn't a genocide above. Those are emphatically not the reasonings we find from TCB.

There are a variety of ways to dissent from the idea that the Hołodmor is a genocide that I would hardly object to, although I might disagree with them.

Claiming that the Hołodmor is an invention of the Nazis, claiming that the name was deliberately chosen to provoke Holocaust comparison, and conflating the victims with Hitler and Mussolini are not among those ways.

Pointing this fact out is far from "bad faith" and attempts to shut down discussion via that accusation feel far more like attempts to distract from the frankly repugnant views openly espoused by many in your region

[Free Algerstonia]

personally I think the communist bloc is doing a fantastic job in combatting western propaganda and standing in solidarity with the oppressed peoples in the donbass fighting for their freedom and liberation against the new world order. i'm glad there is still a beacon of hope in this dark world increasingly falling in the face of mind control chemicals in the water and the chemtrails

[Nominicia]

Proposal page.

As my proposal to allow civilian-owned nuclear weapons failed, I decided to condemn TCB!

Northumbria, this is for your attempt.

The Security Council,

Noting that the region known as The Communist Bloc, which can be abbreviated as TCB, is infamous for it's welcoming stance on an extreme form of communism,

Despising the ill region's open gates towards an improvised version of communist ideology, which makes the region, but also others, look bad for nations all over the endless, expanding metaverse.

Angry over the region's well-known and horrible policy of putting human rights in the trash bin,

Shocked about the region's enforcement of leftism, where regional dictators strike down upon any rightism found,

Suprised that The Communist Bloc believes in self-glory and imperialism, conquering friendly and poor communist regions allowing basic freedoms,

Honoring past yet failed attempts, such as the nation of Nationalist Northumbria's attempt to condemn such a despicable region,

Wanting to teach the multiverse a lesson about allowing basic freedoms by sanctioning the soon doomed-to-fail region,

Hereby condemns The Communist Bloc.

I would appreciate it if someone would send a campaign telegram for me.

PLEASE SUBMIT THIS

[Bovad]

personally I think the communist bloc is doing a fantastic job in combatting western propaganda and standing in solidarity with the oppressed peoples in the donbass fighting for their freedom and liberation against the new world order. i'm glad there is still a beacon of hope in this dark world increasingly falling in the face of mind control chemicals in the water and the chemtrails

At least that started out okay...

[Nationalist Northumbria]

Like no, we obviously don't condone genocide in any form, that's our stance. EDIT: and we will absolutely yeet anyone who advocates for genocides right the hell to TRR, as they deserve.

i. feel like it's a given that we don't condone genocide. like i would have thought this was not something you'd need additional clarification to presume.

Yeah, but you guys don't consider the Holodomor a genocide, so you're saying fuck all.

[Hecatie]

Like no, we obviously don't condone genocide in any form, that's our stance. EDIT: and we will absolutely yeet anyone who advocates for genocides right the hell to TRR, as they deserve.

i. feel like it's a given that we don't condone genocide. like i would have thought this was not something you'd need additional clarification to presume.

Yeah, but you guys don't consider the Holodomor a genocide, so you're saying fuck all.

Tbh, i feel thats more of a individual to individual thing than a region issue. I personally do see the Holomodor as a genocide

[Perikuresu]

ah shit here we go again

[Honeydewistania]

Like no, we obviously don't condone genocide in any form, that's our stance. EDIT: and we will absolutely yeet anyone who advocates for genocides right the hell to TRR, as they deserve.

i. feel like it's a given that we don't condone genocide. like i would have thought this was not something you'd need additional clarification to presume.

Yeah, but you guys don't consider the Holodomor a genocide, so you're saying fuck all.

Nationalist Northumbria is, for once, right. Obviously if you don’t even see it as a genocide, you wouldn’t consider it genocide denial lmao

[Chipoli]

Proposal page.

As my proposal to allow civilian-owned nuclear weapons failed, I decided to condemn TCB!

Northumbria, this is for your attempt.

The Security Council,

Noting that the region known as The Communist Bloc, which can be abbreviated as TCB, is infamous for it's welcoming stance on an extreme form of communism,

Despising the ill region's open gates towards an improvised version of communist ideology, which makes the region, but also others, look bad for nations all over the endless, expanding metaverse.

Angry over the region's well-known and horrible policy of putting human rights in the trash bin,

Shocked about the region's enforcement of leftism, where regional dictators strike down upon any rightism found,

Suprised that The Communist Bloc believes in self-glory and imperialism, conquering friendly and poor communist regions allowing basic freedoms,

Honoring past yet failed attempts, such as the nation of Nationalist Northumbria's attempt to condemn such a despicable region,

Wanting to teach the multiverse a lesson about allowing basic freedoms by sanctioning the soon doomed-to-fail region,

Hereby condemns The Communist Bloc.

I would appreciate it if someone would send a campaign telegram for me.

Oppose, the proposal is just a rant about "I hate communism." And while TCB has a couple of things I disagree with, I don't believe it should be condemned on a worldwide scale.

[Molossiania]

Somebody really needs to keep count of all the condemn/liberate the Communist Bloc drafts and proposal.

[Fachumonn]

Somebody really needs to keep count of all the condemn/liberate the Communist Bloc drafts and proposal.

You can by using the advanced search feature, for yourself.
Just search up "The Communist Bloc" (Actually, just "Communist Bloc" may catch more)
Then turn the choice of what you're searching to topic titles only, so there you go.
Oh, and also make sure to choose a forum. Choose either SC or WA archives to get all of them.
Edit: There have been 13.

[Meadowfields]

Ones I've found so far:
Condemn the Communist Bloc by the Hooded Republic of Aldor
Condemn The Communist Bloc by Humberistan
Condemn The Communist Bloc by Violent Mob
Liberate the Communist Bloc by Lalop
Condemn The Communist Bloc by Greater Rheenia
Condemn The Communist Bloc by Kazakhstan 3
Condemn The Communist Bloc by Nationalist Northumbria
Liberate The Communist Bloc by Nationalist Northumbria
And this one, of course.