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[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What would you consider to be the best 'compromise'?

Reduce abortions with welfare supports / other non-invasive measures, leave access untouched.
132
33%
Set conditions under which abortions can be accessed.
83
21%
Allow free access, under a given time limit.
38
9%
Allow free access, but give men an option to excuse themselves from child support.
40
10%
HELL WITH COMPROMISE, IT'S MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY!
86
21%
Look out! They're here! Pink Elephants on Parade! Here they come, hippity hoppity!
22
5%
 
Total votes : 401

User avatar
Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 617
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 03, 2022 10:55 am

The LBP Union wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:


Yes, because it varies on time and the society when it comes to personhood. Most of the arguments resort to emotion to justify their point, when in reality this issue boils down to this. I think if people today, who decry the past, were born then they would hold the same views that are today condemned.

Now, it is one thing to acknowledge personhood, it is another to acknowledge that they possess certain rights. That is where I differ with the Right in America as much as the Left.

"Passports"

Yes, like those who want to have an abortion can cross state lines in which abortion is legal. Repealing Roe v Wade does not create a blanket ban on abortion, it is sort of the opposite of the Prohibition of Alcohol within America. States, like countries in the EU, can determine their own policies. There are regional differences and attitudes, imagine Brussels imposing their view on x when you hold the attitude of Y against your will.

"Such cases"
Should result in the death of the individual who committed the act knowingly. I want rape kits that are on the shelves to be examined, because I want such scum eliminated from society. We put down dogs for less, and such are less than dogs imo. This comes as a contradiction, but then I regard the person conceived as having no part in a crime which requires the ultimate penalty.

The justice system is a joke, that protects those who are "boys being boys" and does nothing for actual victims. Just having an abortion does not remove the post-traumatic stress involved, and it isn't justice that such scum should draw breath on this earth at the state's expense while their victim is unsupported.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... uture.html
Last edited by Royal Frankia on Tue May 03, 2022 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

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PokemonGirl
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Feb 20, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby PokemonGirl » Tue May 03, 2022 10:55 am

Literally would solve it like I would in-game. Just abolish child support laws and abortions are backed by free trade enterprises who wanna put seedy infomercials late at night "come on down too our abortion clinic and we'll give ya so many booster shots ain't no organism living inside you. No credit? NO PROBLEM"

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Sundiata
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9755
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sundiata » Tue May 03, 2022 10:57 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Exactly.
Well, women are not God even if some believe they are made in his image.
The favor of people, in this case women does not matter. What matters is doing the right thing and ensuring that abortion is universally banned.

Yes, but even if nobody cared it would still be what's right.

Lying and controlling peoples' bodies... I thought that was something Satan did in your religion. Apparently I was mistaken.

I'm not going to express anger towards you you but I would really appreciate it if you did not compare me to Satan for being pro-life, thank you.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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Diarcesia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7559
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Autocracy

Postby Diarcesia » Tue May 03, 2022 10:57 am

One abortion take I can support is preventing monopolies. Corporations are people, after all.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 10:57 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
The LBP Union wrote:


Yes, because it varies on time and the society when it comes to personhood. Most of the arguments resort to emotion to justify their point, when in reality this issue boils down to this. I think if people today, who decry the past, were born then they would hold the same views that are today condemned.

Now, it is one thing to acknowledge personhood, it is another to acknowledge that they possess certain rights. That is where I differ with the Right in America as much as the Left.


By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.

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Michel Meilleur
Diplomat
 
Posts: 678
Founded: Aug 24, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby Michel Meilleur » Tue May 03, 2022 11:00 am

Necroghastia wrote:Lying and controlling peoples' bodies... I thought that was something Satan did in your religion. Apparently I was mistaken.

Killing children for the sake of idols is all about Moloch Ba'al tho, is that more of your own jam?

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Diarcesia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7559
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Autocracy

Postby Diarcesia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:00 am

San Lumen wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:
Yes, because it varies on time and the society when it comes to personhood. Most of the arguments resort to emotion to justify their point, when in reality this issue boils down to this. I think if people today, who decry the past, were born then they would hold the same views that are today condemned.

Now, it is one thing to acknowledge personhood, it is another to acknowledge that they possess certain rights. That is where I differ with the Right in America as much as the Left.


By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.

Depending on the context, it could be viewed as acceptable, like a hypothetical society that has severely declining population.

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 11:01 am

Michel Meilleur wrote:
Necroghastia wrote:Lying and controlling peoples' bodies... I thought that was something Satan did in your religion. Apparently I was mistaken.

Killing children for the sake of idols is all about Moloch Ba'al tho, is that more of your own jam?


Who?

User avatar
Page
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18819
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Page » Tue May 03, 2022 11:01 am

West Bromwich Holme wrote:This is not good for the U.S. ; it's legal here in the UK to have an abortion.

Remember a Law & Order: Special Victims Unit where a stalker got a woman pregnant? The ending was he'd have rights to see his child for 18 years, but it was implied it was cover for the stalker to see the woman he was obsessed with.

We can't have real-life examples of that happening. Do you really want rape victims who don't want kids being parents and adding more children to the adoption system, and more problems caused?


I once saw a Law and Order SVU episode in which the police got a court order to prevent a rape victim from having an abortion because they needed the fetus's DNA to catch the rapist.

And it literally ruined the show for me. That is such an evil fucking thing to do, I could never look at them the same again.
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Celritannia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22390
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
New York Times Democracy

Postby Celritannia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:01 am

Diarcesia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.

Depending on the context, it could be viewed as acceptable, like a hypothetical society that has severely declining population.


Yet the US doesn't.

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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 177082
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ifreann » Tue May 03, 2022 11:02 am

Diarcesia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.

Depending on the context, it could be viewed as acceptable, like a hypothetical society that has severely declining population.

That's not acceptable.
He/Him
We are born of the salt, we are children of the sea
We don't bend our knee to no king or country
So we hoist the Jolly Roger, the colours of the free
And if we hit the gallows that's the way that it must be

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 11:02 am

Diarcesia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.

Depending on the context, it could be viewed as acceptable, like a hypothetical society that has severely declining population.


Who cares? The government has no right to make medical decisions on someone else's behalf.

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Diarcesia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7559
Founded: Aug 21, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Autocracy

Postby Diarcesia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:04 am

San Lumen wrote:
Diarcesia wrote:Depending on the context, it could be viewed as acceptable, like a hypothetical society that has severely declining population.


Who cares? The government has no right to make medical decisions on someone else's behalf.

Hence the disconnect between pro- and anti-abortion groups. For the anti-abortionists in particular, they genuinely think that those happen because the mom thinks the baby is a non-life threatening inconvenience.
Last edited by Diarcesia on Tue May 03, 2022 11:05 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 617
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:05 am

San Lumen wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:

By outlawing abortion your giving a fetus more rights than any person has.


Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death. I think we can all agree that a rapist should not be breathing on this Earth and cannot be rehabilitated.
Last edited by Royal Frankia on Tue May 03, 2022 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 11:06 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:


Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death.


A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.

User avatar
Celritannia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22390
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
New York Times Democracy

Postby Celritannia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:07 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:


Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death. I think we can all agree that a rapist should not be breathing on this Earth and cannot be rehabilitated.


And a woman should not have to go through the pain and mental trauma of giving birth to the rapist's child. She should have the right to have an abortion since she had no choice in the matter.

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Page
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18819
Founded: Jan 12, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Page » Tue May 03, 2022 11:08 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:


Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death. I think we can all agree that a rapist should not be breathing on this Earth and cannot be rehabilitated.


If we're going to ask a fetus permission to terminate its life then we may as well ask a tree permission to cut it down. Why not? They're both living things with the same level of sentience.
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Musk Estate Liquidated to Fund Public Works; Vivian Wilson Awarded a Portion
The New Faces of American Currency: John Brown, Eugene V. Debs, Sitting Bull, Fred Hampton
SCOTUS: Transgender Minors Have Inviolable Right to Social Transition

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Sundiata
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9755
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Sundiata » Tue May 03, 2022 11:08 am

San Lumen wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:
Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death.


A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.

Legally, a fetus should be considered a person with rights.
"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva

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Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 617
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:08 am

San Lumen wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:
Both persons are protected from having their lives terminated without their permission. I do not recognize such protection for a rapist, who has committed a crime deserving of death.


A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.


A fetus is a human being that is distinct from the mother, a rapist has committed a grievous act knowingly which warrants death. Why should the former die that has done nothing while the latter should live?
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
Celritannia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22390
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
New York Times Democracy

Postby Celritannia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:09 am

Sundiata wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.

Legally, a fetus should be considered a person with rights.


Why?

User avatar
Celritannia
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22390
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
New York Times Democracy

Postby Celritannia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:10 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.


A fetus is a human being that is distinct from the mother, a rapist has committed a grievous act knowingly which warrants death. Why should the former die that has done nothing while the latter should live?


Because the baby is a traumatic reminder of an assault and a decision that was not hers. Her basic right to decide to have a child was taken away and will be denied if abortion is illegal.

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Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 617
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:10 am

Celritannia wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:

And a woman should not have to go through the pain and mental trauma of giving birth to the rapist's child. She should have the right to have an abortion since she had no choice in the matter.


She is putting the wrong person to death, who is of her blood. A rapist acted with intent, do you think they should keep their lives after committing a grievous crime? They breathe and think, but does that mean they are worthy to live?
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 11:10 am

Sundiata wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
A fetus is not a person. A fetus has zero rights.

Legally, a fetus should be considered a person with rights.


A fetus therefore has more rights than you and I. Im going to ask you a hypothetical. Your a firefighter in standing in a hallway in a burning building. On one side is a man or woman on the other is fridge filled with embryos. You can only save one. Which do you chose?

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Royal Frankia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 617
Founded: Apr 21, 2016
Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue May 03, 2022 11:11 am

Celritannia wrote:
Royal Frankia wrote:
A fetus is a human being that is distinct from the mother, a rapist has committed a grievous act knowingly which warrants death. Why should the former die that has done nothing while the latter should live?


Because the baby is a traumatic reminder of an assault and a decision that was not hers. Her basic right to decide to have a child was taken away and will be denied if abortion is illegal.


The child can be given up to the state, and other mothers have raised such children conceived in such manner without issue. I will not judge anyone based on their origins, that they had no control over, why should you?

Do you think a rapist has a right to their life?
O Pious, do not forsake us!
We keep the Law of the Mater Atkana.
Her name is ever upon our tongue.
O Pious, do not forget the Children of Atkane!
What must rise, must fall. What must live, must die. What must be, must cease. Only the One shall remain.

Annals in the time of Ynga II-Factbook
Atkana the Merciful, Blessed be She and Her Beloved Norva

User avatar
San Lumen
Post Kaiser
 
Posts: 97840
Founded: Jul 02, 2009
New York Times Democracy

Postby San Lumen » Tue May 03, 2022 11:11 am

Royal Frankia wrote:
Celritannia wrote:


She is putting the wrong person to death, who is of her blood. A rapist acted with intent, do you think they should keep their lives after committing a grievous crime? They breathe and think, but does that mean they are worthy to live?


You have no right to force a woman to carry a child to term she does not want. Capital punishment is wrong.

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