Ukrainian Invasion Thread II: Sunrise on the Dnieper

[Holy Nacimerian Empire]

Russia has deliberately destroyed 50,000 tonnes of food in a recent attack. Roughly 50,000,000 kilograms.

It was about a months supply for everyone in the capital.

This is a warcrime incidentally, and a good example of what we were discussing earlier in terms of distinction between generals ordering artillery strikes and individual soldiers slapping eachother about a bit. The culpability is different, but so is the absolute scale of the atrocity.

A 1400s type seige? Thats somewhat intriguing

[Antipatros]

Actually it turns out Russia folded:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy ... 022-03-30/
Gas and oil will not be required to be paid in roubles after all.

Russia bluffed, Europe called it, Russia backed down.

We should be so afraid of calling Russia’s bluffs.

Yep.

Russia's leadership is dumb, but they're not that dumb.

[HISPIDA]

i'm shocked. shocked! well, not that shocked.

The fact they're just openly doing war crimes is certainly something. I honestly think we should inform those who abstained that if they do not get on board with removing Russia from the council, the western powers will resign from the UN and form a new one, with those nations as well as Russia permanently excluded by the charter (And membership in both prohibited). It is not a world government. It is a series of treaties which can be withdrawn from at our leisure. The fact of the matter is that the western powers have the influence and clout to drag most of the world slowly along with us if it's necessary.

Simply give a firm ultimatum to China and India and so on that it is us or Russia.

i think that's a bad idea...

like, i'm no fan of china, but considering how much soft power china has all over the world (especially africa) you could probably exclude a good half of the world's nations from the club.

[Ostroeuropa]

The fact they're just openly doing war crimes is certainly something. I honestly think we should inform those who abstained that if they do not get on board with removing Russia from the council, the western powers will resign from the UN and form a new one, with those nations as well as Russia permanently excluded by the charter (And membership in both prohibited). It is not a world government. It is a series of treaties which can be withdrawn from at our leisure. The fact of the matter is that the western powers have the influence and clout to drag most of the world slowly along with us if it's necessary.

Simply give a firm ultimatum to China and India and so on that it is us or Russia.

i think that's a bad idea...

like, i'm no fan of china, but considering how much soft power china has all over the world (especially africa) you could probably exclude a good half of the world's nations from the club.

China's soft power is reliant on trade with western powers and they know this.

[Port Caverton]

i'm shocked. shocked! well, not that shocked.

The fact they're just openly doing war crimes is certainly something. I honestly think we should inform those who abstained that if they do not get on board with removing Russia from the council, the western powers will resign from the UN and form a new one, with those nations as well as Russia permanently excluded by the charter (And membership in both prohibited). It is not a world government. It is a series of treaties which can be withdrawn from at our leisure. The fact of the matter is that the western powers have the influence and clout to drag most of the world slowly along with us if it's necessary.

Simply give a firm ultimatum to China and India and so on that it is us or Russia. They can either get on board with international cooperation, or they can be barred from doing so for the rest of time.

I think we should just stop paying for Russian gas and waterboard the executives that lobbied for it instead

[Holy Nacimerian Empire]

The fact they're just openly doing war crimes is certainly something. I honestly think we should inform those who abstained that if they do not get on board with removing Russia from the council, the western powers will resign from the UN and form a new one, with those nations as well as Russia permanently excluded by the charter (And membership in both prohibited). It is not a world government. It is a series of treaties which can be withdrawn from at our leisure. The fact of the matter is that the western powers have the influence and clout to drag most of the world slowly along with us if it's necessary.

Simply give a firm ultimatum to China and India and so on that it is us or Russia.

i think that's a bad idea...

like, i'm no fan of china, but considering how much soft power china has all over the world (especially africa) you could probably exclude a good half of the world's nations from the club.

The best thing about china is how easy it is to destabalize their soft power in a region (That isnt super close to china)

The fact they're just openly doing war crimes is certainly something. I honestly think we should inform those who abstained that if they do not get on board with removing Russia from the council, the western powers will resign from the UN and form a new one, with those nations as well as Russia permanently excluded by the charter (And membership in both prohibited). It is not a world government. It is a series of treaties which can be withdrawn from at our leisure. The fact of the matter is that the western powers have the influence and clout to drag most of the world slowly along with us if it's necessary.

Simply give a firm ultimatum to China and India and so on that it is us or Russia. They can either get on board with international cooperation, or they can be barred from doing so for the rest of time.

I think we should just stop paying for Russian gas and waterboard the executives that lobbied for it instead

Russian gas> Non Russian gas

[Adamede]

The ruble is the best-performing currency of March.

"Analysts, however, say the recovery in the ruble suggests the impact of the West’s economic sanctions are much lower than anticipated initially. “The sanctions and curbs had created insolvency risks for the Russian economy, leading to a big sell-off in the ruble.

The economic stress has, however, lessened considerably as European countries continue to buy oil and gas from Russia, and major emerging markets including China continue to trade with Russia,” said Dhananjay Sinha, managing director and chief strategist, JM Finance Institutional Equity."

Hence the importance of not letting your greatest potential enemy be the main source of your most needed resource. Easier said than done however.

Wonder how this will change the discussion around nuclear power in the EU in the long term.

[Novus America]

The ruble is the best-performing currency of March.

"Analysts, however, say the recovery in the ruble suggests the impact of the West’s economic sanctions are much lower than anticipated initially. “The sanctions and curbs had created insolvency risks for the Russian economy, leading to a big sell-off in the ruble.

The economic stress has, however, lessened considerably as European countries continue to buy oil and gas from Russia, and major emerging markets including China continue to trade with Russia,” said Dhananjay Sinha, managing director and chief strategist, JM Finance Institutional Equity."

Hence the importance of not letting your greatest potential enemy be the main source of your most needed resource. Easier said than done however.

Wonder how this will change the discussion around nuclear power in the EU in the long term.

Remember kids, neoliberal trade is bad for your health.
Hopefully this causes a massive shift on trade. Buying things from your enemies does not make the more friendly, it just makes them more dangerous.

[Port Caverton]

Hence the importance of not letting your greatest potential enemy be the main source of your most needed resource. Easier said than done however.

Wonder how this will change the discussion around nuclear power in the EU in the long term.

Remember kids, neoliberal trade is bad for your health.
Hopefully this causes a massive shift on trade. Buying things from your enemies does not make the more friendly, it just makes them more dangerous.

Make Protectionism Great Again!

[Prima Scriptura]

Remember kids, neoliberal trade is bad for your health.
Hopefully this causes a massive shift on trade. Buying things from your enemies does not make the more friendly, it just makes them more dangerous.

Make Protectionism Great Again!

Autarky isn’t the answer either, we just have to be more choosey about who we trade with. We can also pressure entities such as the communist party of China to stop threatening Taiwan and committing genocide against the Uighurs. But we need other countries to join us.

[Adamede]

Remember kids, neoliberal trade is bad for your health.
Hopefully this causes a massive shift on trade. Buying things from your enemies does not make the more friendly, it just makes them more dangerous.

Make Protectionism Great Again!

I'm not arguing for completely isolationism but there comes a point were you have to be as self sufficient as possible, for reasons like this. I'm not agaisnt globalism as it has many benefits when it works correctly but it comes with a lot of baggage that can screw shit up.

[Port Caverton]

Make Protectionism Great Again!

Autarky isn’t the answer either, we just have to be more choosey about who we trade with

1. Protectionism doesn't mean autarky
2. I do support restricting trade with non-NATO countries and allies, however

We can also pressure entities such as the communist party of China to stop threatening Taiwan and committing genocide against the Uighurs. But we need other countries to join us.

Kind of hard when they are making our stuff at very cheap prices thought.

[Novus America]

Remember kids, neoliberal trade is bad for your health.
Hopefully this causes a massive shift on trade. Buying things from your enemies does not make the more friendly, it just makes them more dangerous.

Make Protectionism Great Again!

Moderate protectionism, especially on critical goods that exempts allies?
Absolutely.

The US did better under moderate protectionism than neoliberalism.

I am not calling for autarky, and I really do not care that much if stuffed animals are imported from an unreliable source (because if the get cut off it is not a big deal).
But essentials absolutely should be domestically sourced or sourced from reliable allies via defensible supply lines.

I support NAFTA/USMCA. I oppose trade with Russia and the PRC.

[Novus America]

Make Protectionism Great Again!

Autarky isn’t the answer either, we just have to be more choosey about who we trade with. We can also pressure entities such as the communist party of China to stop threatening Taiwan and committing genocide against the Uighurs. But we need other countries to join us.

Being choosey is protectionism. Moderate protectionism that exempts allies is not autarky, and is in fact the middle road between autarky and neoliberalism.

Thankfully we are starting to realize that. This is the death of neoliberal globalism.

Bloc economics and self sufficiency are back.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

Russia has deliberately destroyed 50,000 tonnes of food in a recent attack. Roughly 50,000,000 kilograms.

It was about a months supply for everyone in the capital.

This is a warcrime incidentally, and a good example of what we were discussing earlier in terms of distinction between generals ordering artillery strikes and individual soldiers slapping eachother about a bit. The culpability is different, but so is the absolute scale of the atrocity.

Guess Russia is gonna try to starve Ukraine just like Stalin did. What the hell is wrong with the Russian government? Monsters or villains isn't strong enough of a word to describe the evil of Putin and company.

[Independent Cossack Ukraine]

Make Protectionism Great Again!

I'm not arguing for completely isolationism but there comes a point were you have to be as self sufficient as possible, for reasons like this. I'm not agaisnt globalism as it has many benefits when it works correctly but it comes with a lot of baggage that can screw shit up.

Totally agreed. We all need to be able to make as much as possible but also trade with others. Balance is key.

[Infected Mushroom]

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia ... 2022-03-30

President Vladimir Putin’s approval rating in Russia has soared since he launched his invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24—to 83% from 71% last month—according to independent Russian pollster Levada Center.

Surveys by Levada Center and state-backed pollsters indicate that around two-thirds of Russians back Mr. Putin’s war, which the Kremlin refers to as a special military operation. Experts have cautioned against taking current Russian polls on face value, given that Russian authorities have pursued a crackdown against dissent, including a media blackout of any reports contrary to the Kremlin’s narrative about Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

Mr. Putin’s approval rating had for the past few years hovered in the 60s, according to Levada, which has tracked the longtime Russian leader’s rating since he became prime minister in 1999.

His approval rating last jumped so sharply after Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine and fomented a rebellion in the country’s industrial east in 2014. At the time, Mr. Putin's approval rating rose to 83% from 69%.

Levada, which was designated a foreign agent by Russian authorities, also found that the percentage of Russians who believe the country is moving in the right direction increased since the war began: 69% of Russians now believe Russia is headed in the right direction, compared with 52% in February and 50% in January, the poll showed.

[The Two Jerseys]

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-30

President Vladimir Putin’s approval rating in Russia has soared since he launched his invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24—to 83% from 71% last month—according to independent Russian pollster Levada Center.

Surveys by Levada Center and state-backed pollsters indicate that around two-thirds of Russians back Mr. Putin’s war, which the Kremlin refers to as a special military operation. Experts have cautioned against taking current Russian polls on face value, given that Russian authorities have pursued a crackdown against dissent, including a media blackout of any reports contrary to the Kremlin’s narrative about Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

Mr. Putin’s approval rating had for the past few years hovered in the 60s, according to Levada, which has tracked the longtime Russian leader’s rating since he became prime minister in 1999.

His approval rating last jumped so sharply after Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine and fomented a rebellion in the country’s industrial east in 2014. At the time, Mr. Putin's approval rating rose to 83% from 69%.

Levada, which was designated a foreign agent by Russian authorities, also found that the percentage of Russians who believe the country is moving in the right direction increased since the war began: 69% of Russians now believe Russia is headed in the right direction, compared with 52% in February and 50% in January, the poll showed.

Paging Detective Phelps, Detective Cole Phelps, please pick up the white courtesy phone...

[Skelly Man Dan]

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-30

President Vladimir Putin’s approval rating in Russia has soared since he launched his invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24—to 83% from 71% last month—according to independent Russian pollster Levada Center.

Surveys by Levada Center and state-backed pollsters indicate that around two-thirds of Russians back Mr. Putin’s war, which the Kremlin refers to as a special military operation. Experts have cautioned against taking current Russian polls on face value, given that Russian authorities have pursued a crackdown against dissent, including a media blackout of any reports contrary to the Kremlin’s narrative about Russia’s actions in Ukraine.

Mr. Putin’s approval rating had for the past few years hovered in the 60s, according to Levada, which has tracked the longtime Russian leader’s rating since he became prime minister in 1999.

His approval rating last jumped so sharply after Russia seized Crimea from Ukraine and fomented a rebellion in the country’s industrial east in 2014. At the time, Mr. Putin's approval rating rose to 83% from 69%.

Levada, which was designated a foreign agent by Russian authorities, also found that the percentage of Russians who believe the country is moving in the right direction increased since the war began: 69% of Russians now believe Russia is headed in the right direction, compared with 52% in February and 50% in January, the poll showed.

I can see rallying behind your leader when most of the world's against you (because your country invaded another without justification but y'know), but who thinks blundering from one military disaster to another is "moving in the right direction"? And if it's not the war they're referring to, then is it the floundering economy they're proud of? Russia's rapidly deteriorating geopolitical position?

Wonder if Putin's courting the masochist bloc of the Russian public.

[Sordhau]

Still amazed how easily people are rooting for the impoverishment of Russians because their government does things we don't like.

[Adamede]

Still amazed how easily people are rooting for the impoverishment of Russians because their government does things we don't like.

Better the impoverishment of the Russians than the deaths of the Ukrainians.

[Saiwania]

Of course European nations are still going to buy energy from Russia. Where else are they going to get it from? The reality of the situation is that European nations need that oil/natural gas but already pay unacceptably high prices for energy compared to most Americans, because of burdensome EU regulations/taxes even in normal times. If Europe actually stops buying Russian oil tomorrow, they'd have to pay even more to get anything done that requires fuel.

Only a nation like France which has lots of nuclear power, has a real backup to fall back on.

[Picairn]

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-30

Wow we're reaching Crimean annexation levels of support for Putin here.

[Rusozak]

Still amazed how easily people are rooting for the impoverishment of Russians because their government does things we don't like.

Would you prefer bombing them? As far as responding to open acts of war go I would say this is pretty tame.

[Umeria]

Still amazed how easily people are rooting for the impoverishment of Russians because their government does things we don't like.

Would you prefer bombing them? As far as responding to open acts of war go I would say this is pretty tame.

I suppose I'd prefer the bad thing to the worse thing. Doesn't mean I have to like it