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by Haruhi Japan » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:18 pm
by The North Polish Union » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:10 pm
All Wild Things wrote:Insidium wrote:I've taken a look at the liberation text, and I don't see how it's supposed to "directly and primarily benefit a fascist nation or region," as the non-binding declaration (without the force of law) says.
You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.
If this passed in its current form, those regions can legitimately claim that the SC thinks they're important enough for a mention. And they're not.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.
by All Wild Things » Thu Nov 11, 2021 4:06 pm
Insidium wrote:All Wild Things wrote:You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.
I don't see how this relates to SC#358.
Xoriet wrote:There’s nothing beneficial about denouncing them as bad. Which this does. Because they are bad and should be censured and so should people allied to them.
The North Polish Union wrote:All Wild Things wrote:You're right in that it doesn't "primarily" benefit fascist regions, but it does preserve their names forever in NS history. These regions don't deserve that. RL fascist regions should disappear completely from the record when they finally CTE.
If this passed in its current form, those regions can legitimately claim that the SC thinks they're important enough for a mention. And they're not.
I have a serious question as somebody who comes from an RL country where fascism caused an immense amount of damage and suffering: What does this sort of abolitio memoriae (or desire for it) actually accomplish?
One need not trawl SC resolutions to find current fascist regions, as there are searchable tags that will show them all. If the intent of the SC is to demonstrate approval/disapproval for an ideology, then liberations can do so much more strongly than C&Cs because they actually impact game mechanics and so the liberation feature should be utilized in such cases.
As for the idea that this will bring notoriety or fame to fascist regions, there needs to be a recognition that not all such fame is good fame. Adolf Hitler undoubtedly is one of the most notorious and famous people in history, but his fame is not a positive one and his supporters genuinely do remain small; additionally, such supporters who are users of this site are not likely to not be able to find a fascist region because the SC didn't mention them.
Additionally, such avoidance of names does little to actually benefit anti-fascism. Imagine if the German schools decided to continue to educate German children on anti-fascism, but only to do so in broad ideological terms so as to avoid giving continued fame to the dead Nazis; if such a child then finds a book of some sort that casts Joseph Goebbels in a positive light I would imagine they would be less easily able to question such a book than if their teachers had simply told them that Goebbels was a high-ranking Nazi official. In this sense, mentioning fascist regions serves as a sort of warning sign (for example, one cannot tell that 'Altmora' is fascist simply from the name); of course, some people will ignore the warning sign and some regions will make light of the fact that a sign is pointed at them, but that is not a reason to avoid making the sign any more than it is meaningless to call out an abusive person who is proud of their abusiveness.
In my opinion, trying to avoid mentioning fascist regions is more similar to the Arab practice of referring to Israel as "the Zionist entity" than it is to any meaningful anti-fascism; avoiding the name does little to nothing of substance. Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on without needing to engage in rhetorical dances to avoid directly acknowledging the enemy.
Full support of the resolution, by the way.
by Insidium » Thu Nov 11, 2021 5:28 pm
All Wild Things wrote:This particular Liberation lists some fascist regions. They do not need to be named. It would be sufficient to simply call them "fascist regions". Now, while it's not "granting disproportionate attention to the region in question", it is "granting disproportionate attention" to those regions.
by Unibot III » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:16 pm
Xoriet wrote:And Unibot, a Tribunal for regions would be unnecessarily complicated since what passes judgment internationally is something getting to vote and seeing how that vote plays out. At that point you see what the overwhelming opinion is. Regions can condemn or rule in favor of the target at leisure and the ballots cast are quite public.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by Tinhampton » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:40 pm
by Goobergunchia » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:50 pm
Insidium wrote:Edit: Also, Polomon Islands, don't ever send unmarked recruitment telegrams to me (or anyone) again. You sent a manual telegram, specifically addressed to me, asking me to join the "Official United Nations." I don't appreciate you mislabeling your telegram in an effort to evade my telegram filter and reach me.
by Insidium » Thu Nov 11, 2021 6:53 pm
Goobergunchia wrote:Insidium wrote:Edit: Also, Polomon Islands, don't ever send unmarked recruitment telegrams to me (or anyone) again. You sent a manual telegram, specifically addressed to me, asking me to join the "Official United Nations." I don't appreciate you mislabeling your telegram in an effort to evade my telegram filter and reach me.
Recruitment telegrams that are not marked as such should be reported via the Getting Help page, as they are a violation of NationStates rules.
by The North Polish Union » Thu Nov 11, 2021 8:37 pm
All Wild Things wrote:The North Polish Union wrote:I have a serious question as somebody who comes from an RL country where fascism caused an immense amount of damage and suffering: What does this sort of abolitio memoriae (or desire for it) actually accomplish?
One need not trawl SC resolutions to find current fascist regions, as there are searchable tags that will show them all. If the intent of the SC is to demonstrate approval/disapproval for an ideology, then liberations can do so much more strongly than C&Cs because they actually impact game mechanics and so the liberation feature should be utilized in such cases.
As for the idea that this will bring notoriety or fame to fascist regions, there needs to be a recognition that not all such fame is good fame. Adolf Hitler undoubtedly is one of the most notorious and famous people in history, but his fame is not a positive one and his supporters genuinely do remain small; additionally, such supporters who are users of this site are not likely to not be able to find a fascist region because the SC didn't mention them.
Additionally, such avoidance of names does little to actually benefit anti-fascism. Imagine if the German schools decided to continue to educate German children on anti-fascism, but only to do so in broad ideological terms so as to avoid giving continued fame to the dead Nazis; if such a child then finds a book of some sort that casts Joseph Goebbels in a positive light I would imagine they would be less easily able to question such a book than if their teachers had simply told them that Goebbels was a high-ranking Nazi official. In this sense, mentioning fascist regions serves as a sort of warning sign (for example, one cannot tell that 'Altmora' is fascist simply from the name); of course, some people will ignore the warning sign and some regions will make light of the fact that a sign is pointed at them, but that is not a reason to avoid making the sign any more than it is meaningless to call out an abusive person who is proud of their abusiveness.
In my opinion, trying to avoid mentioning fascist regions is more similar to the Arab practice of referring to Israel as "the Zionist entity" than it is to any meaningful anti-fascism; avoiding the name does little to nothing of substance. Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on without needing to engage in rhetorical dances to avoid directly acknowledging the enemy.
Full support of the resolution, by the way.
Sure, but this is NS, not RL, and the context is different. The regions mentioned don't commit any atrocities. There have been literally hundreds, if not thousands, of fascist regions in NS. We don't preserve lists of them in the SC. Why should these ones get preserved?
As you say, real people need educated about Nazi Germany so that we can all try to ensure "never again". But there's no need to record the existence of some minor NS nazi voices.
"Genuine anti-fascism engages against fascism head-on"
I very much agree with you. Going off topic, the problem in NS is that the standard approach to anti-fascism is to raid a fascist region. For that to happen, first the founder must CTE (ie has lost interest in maintaining the region) or be deleted by a mod. So while the raid destroys the region, the raiders were in no meaningful way responsible for its downfall.
There are alternative in-game methods of engaging against fascism. For example, Barbaria is mentioned in this liberation. Barbaria has 170 embassies. If genuine diplomacy were used (rather than the typical NS aggression displayed by most NSGP commentators), then many of those embassy regions could be persuaded to close embassies. Does it destroy Barbaria? No, but it's a severe blow to their esteem. It's a tactic that worked on Genua, and Aryan Resistance.
Another example is the "Civil Defence Siren", which apparently sends automated TGs to all nations joining certain fascist regions.
Outside of Gameplay, constructively contributing to Moderation discussion threads such as the "Holocaust Denial" thread is another method. Overt nazism was banned on-site back in April. With suitable arguments and evidence, it may be possible to influence moderation standards further.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:keep your wet opinions to yourself. Byzantium and Ottoman will not come again. Whoever thinks of this wet dream will feel the power of the Republic's secular army.
Minskiev wrote:You are GP's dross.
Petrovsegratsk wrote:NPU, I know your clearly a Polish nationalist, but wtf is up with your obssession with resurrecting the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?
The yoshin empire wrote:Grouping russians with slavs is like grouping germans with french , the two are so culturally different.
by Greater Cesnica » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:06 pm
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
WA Discord Server
Authorship Dispatch
WA Ambassador: Slick McCooley
Firearm Rights are Human Rights
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San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
by All Wild Things » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:37 am
by Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri Nov 12, 2021 12:58 am
Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.
RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.
Sedgistan wrote:The SC has just has a spate of really shitty ones recently from Northumbria, his Watermelon fanboy…..
by The Reformed American Republic » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:01 am
by The Reformed American Republic » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:40 am
Great Algerstonia wrote:Call it what it is. Was it porn or disgusting pictures or what? Also, moderation.
by Great Algerstonia » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:58 am
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.
by Team Lennox » Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:03 am
by Greater Cesnica » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:01 am
The Reformed American Republic wrote:Now, if Bruhgundy is being truthful, it is now in the hands of a sleeper.
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
WA Discord Server
Authorship Dispatch
WA Ambassador: Slick McCooley
Firearm Rights are Human Rights
privacytools.io - Use these tools to safeguard your online activities, freedoms, and safety
My IFAK and Booboo Kit Starter Guide!
novemberstars#8888 on Discord
San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
by Honeydewistania » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:01 am
Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?
Alger wrote:if you have egoquotes in your signature, touch grass
by Greater Cesnica » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:02 am
Sic Semper Tyrannis.
WA Discord Server
Authorship Dispatch
WA Ambassador: Slick McCooley
Firearm Rights are Human Rights
privacytools.io - Use these tools to safeguard your online activities, freedoms, and safety
My IFAK and Booboo Kit Starter Guide!
novemberstars#8888 on Discord
San Lumen wrote:You are ridiculous.George Orwell wrote:“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
by Team Lennox » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:17 am
by Bhang Bhang Duc » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:22 am
Team Lennox wrote:So now that Lardyland's coup'd, there is no need for the liberation, correct?
Pierconium wrote:I see Funk as an opportunistic manipulator that utilises the means available to him to reach his goals. In other words, a nation after my own heart.
RiderSyl wrote:If an enchantress made it so one raid could bring about world peace, Unibot would ask raiders to just sign a petition instead.
Sedgistan wrote:The SC has just has a spate of really shitty ones recently from Northumbria, his Watermelon fanboy…..
by Andusre » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:28 am
Team Lennox wrote:Honeydewistania wrote:Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?
Yes a NPO sleeper: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383Greater Cesnica wrote:Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.
It is: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383
HumanSanity — Today at 18:15
Yes you are a petty asshole lol
[RRA] Minskiev — Today at 03:57
I mean I'm sure Onder is a good enough actor to pull off gay zoomer scotsman
by Honeydewistania » Fri Nov 12, 2021 9:34 am
Team Lennox wrote:Honeydewistania wrote:Do we even know who the Bruhgundy person is?
Yes a NPO sleeper: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383Greater Cesnica wrote:Not a "pacific sleeper agent", that's for sure.
It is: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=45707383
Alger wrote:if you have egoquotes in your signature, touch grass
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