by Elwher » Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:07 pm
by Aggicificicerous » Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:42 pm
Elwher wrote:
As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.
by Kiruri » Wed Aug 18, 2021 11:58 pm
by Nationalist Northumbria » Thu Aug 19, 2021 2:19 am
by Duvniask » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:15 am
by Kasantia » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:22 am
Elwher wrote:With the Taliban having taken over the country, the twin questions seem to be what should we do and what caused it.
It is my opinion that the answer to the second gives rise to the first.
When the Taliban were forced out of control 20 years ago, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the caves and mountains, organized, planned, and generally worked (with the clandestine help of outside powers) on plans to outlast the secularists to retake power.
When the secularists were forced out of power last week, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the airports and borders to ensure their safety. If the secularists really want to retake power, they need to look to the Taliban for the methods that work; running away is not one of them.
As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.
If, on the other hand, the only goal for the secular Afghan people is survival, then let them leave their people under Taliban rule. It is up to the Afghan people to decide their own fate.
Other opinions are, of course, welcomed and sought.
by Greatest States Of America » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:28 am
by Kasantia » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:30 am
Greatest States Of America wrote:What United States, United Kingdom, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China should have done was to never support the Mujahideen in the Soviet-Afghan war. Why was it so necessary to take revenge against USSR? These Mujahideen became Taliban with the help of Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence. This decision is what causing instability and terrorism to this day. The USA along with other allies supported these fanatics and afterwards, these fanatics with help of Pakistan turned onto the west causing 9/11 and aftermath events.
We should ask this question to ourselves '' Was it really necessary''?
by Bears Armed Mission » Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:31 am
by Kubra » Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:42 am
by Sungoldy-China » Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:49 am
by Old Tyrannia » Thu Aug 19, 2021 8:55 am
Kasantia wrote:What should have beed done? The US and their allies should have stayed on their own countries and leave the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan alone, thats what they should have done.
Greatest States Of America wrote:What United States, United Kingdom, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and China should have done was to never support the Mujahideen in the Soviet-Afghan war. Why was it so necessary to take revenge against USSR? These Mujahideen became Taliban with the help of Pakistani Inter-Services Intelligence. This decision is what causing instability and terrorism to this day. The USA along with other allies supported these fanatics and afterwards, these fanatics with help of Pakistan turned onto the west causing 9/11 and aftermath events.
We should ask this question to ourselves '' Was it really necessary''?
Sungoldy-China wrote:Afghanistan just returned to its previous appearance.
If it were not for the participation of the United States, Afghanistan should have been in a state of tribal warfare.
by North Dizzle » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:03 am
by Kubra » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:23 am
also, fun fact since you mention local power-brokers, the US deliberately sidelined a good chunk of the local intellectual elite, the folks with bureaucratic resumes and inclinations, because they were too left-wing.Duvniask wrote:Just from the executive summary of the August 2021 report from the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR), it can be gleaned that the Americans made so goddamn many mistakes.
And a lot of it comes down to not understanding Afghanistan and trying to shoehorn modern/Western ways onto it, along with unrealistic goals and timetables that incentivized quick spending over meaningful efforts at sustainable development, in part because Washington did not have the necessary personnel and resources to get an understanding of conditions on the ground."The U.S. reconstruction effort in Afghanistan could be described as 20 one-year reconstruction efforts, rather than one 20-year effort. U.S. officials often underestimated the time and resources needed to rebuild Afghanistan, leading to short-term solutions like the surge of troops, money, and resources from 2009–2011. U.S. officials also prioritized their own political preferences for what they wanted reconstruction to look like, rather than what they could realistically achieve, given the constraints and conditions on the ground. Early in the war, U.S. officials denied the mission resources necessary to have an impact, and implicit deadlines made the task even harder. As security deteriorated and demands on donors increased, so did pressure to demonstrate progress. U.S. officials created explicit timelines in the mistaken belief that a decision in Washington could transform the calculus of complex Afghan institutions, powerbrokers, and communities contested by the Taliban."
"Effectively rebuilding Afghanistan required a detailed understanding of the country’s social, economic, and political dynamics. However, U.S. officials were consistently operating in the dark, often because of the difficulty of collecting the necessary information. The U.S. government also clumsily forced Western technocratic models onto Afghan economic institutions; trained security forces in advanced weapon systems they could not understand, much less maintain; imposed formal rule of law on a country that addressed 80 to 90 percent of its disputes through informal means; and often struggled to understand or mitigate the cultural and social barriers to supporting women and girls. Without this background knowledge, U.S. officials often empowered powerbrokers who preyed on the population or diverted U.S. assistance away from its intended recipients to enrich and empower themselves and their allies. Lack of knowledge at the local level meant projects intended to mitigate conflict often exacerbated it, and even inadvertently funded insurgents."
by Duvniask » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:39 am
Kubra wrote:also, fun fact since you mention local power-brokers, the US deliberately sidelined a good chunk of the local intellectual elite, the folks with bureaucratic resumes and inclinations, because they were too left-wing.Duvniask wrote:Just from the executive summary of the August 2021 report from the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (SIGAR), it can be gleaned that the Americans made so goddamn many mistakes.
And a lot of it comes down to not understanding Afghanistan and trying to shoehorn modern/Western ways onto it, along with unrealistic goals and timetables that incentivized quick spending over meaningful efforts at sustainable development, in part because Washington did not have the necessary personnel and resources to get an understanding of conditions on the ground."The U.S. reconstruction effort in Afghanistan could be described as 20 one-year reconstruction efforts, rather than one 20-year effort. U.S. officials often underestimated the time and resources needed to rebuild Afghanistan, leading to short-term solutions like the surge of troops, money, and resources from 2009–2011. U.S. officials also prioritized their own political preferences for what they wanted reconstruction to look like, rather than what they could realistically achieve, given the constraints and conditions on the ground. Early in the war, U.S. officials denied the mission resources necessary to have an impact, and implicit deadlines made the task even harder. As security deteriorated and demands on donors increased, so did pressure to demonstrate progress. U.S. officials created explicit timelines in the mistaken belief that a decision in Washington could transform the calculus of complex Afghan institutions, powerbrokers, and communities contested by the Taliban."
"Effectively rebuilding Afghanistan required a detailed understanding of the country’s social, economic, and political dynamics. However, U.S. officials were consistently operating in the dark, often because of the difficulty of collecting the necessary information. The U.S. government also clumsily forced Western technocratic models onto Afghan economic institutions; trained security forces in advanced weapon systems they could not understand, much less maintain; imposed formal rule of law on a country that addressed 80 to 90 percent of its disputes through informal means; and often struggled to understand or mitigate the cultural and social barriers to supporting women and girls. Without this background knowledge, U.S. officials often empowered powerbrokers who preyed on the population or diverted U.S. assistance away from its intended recipients to enrich and empower themselves and their allies. Lack of knowledge at the local level meant projects intended to mitigate conflict often exacerbated it, and even inadvertently funded insurgents."
by Crockerland » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:48 am
Elwher wrote:As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.
Elwher wrote:what caused it.
Elwher wrote:what should we do
by Ittonia » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:57 am
Elwher wrote:With the Taliban having taken over the country, the twin questions seem to be what should we do and what caused it.
It is my opinion that the answer to the second gives rise to the first.
When the Taliban were forced out of control 20 years ago, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the caves and mountains, organized, planned, and generally worked (with the clandestine help of outside powers) on plans to outlast the secularists to retake power.
When the secularists were forced out of power last week, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the airports and borders to ensure their safety. If the secularists really want to retake power, they need to look to the Taliban for the methods that work; running away is not one of them.
As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.
If, on the other hand, the only goal for the secular Afghan people is survival, then let them leave their people under Taliban rule. It is up to the Afghan people to decide their own fate.
Other opinions are, of course, welcomed and sought.
by The Jamesian Republic » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:02 am
Bears Armed Mission wrote:In the other thread on the situation in Afghanistan there's some acceptance that one of the allies' main mistakes back when they originally defeated the Taliban c.20 years ago was not restoring the traditional (and, ny local standards, "moderate") monarchy, which had actually enjoyed considerable public support.
by Page » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:07 am
Ittonia wrote:Elwher wrote:With the Taliban having taken over the country, the twin questions seem to be what should we do and what caused it.
It is my opinion that the answer to the second gives rise to the first.
When the Taliban were forced out of control 20 years ago, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the caves and mountains, organized, planned, and generally worked (with the clandestine help of outside powers) on plans to outlast the secularists to retake power.
When the secularists were forced out of power last week, they were in danger of death if they were apprehended, they were out of power, and they were in dire straits. They took to the airports and borders to ensure their safety. If the secularists really want to retake power, they need to look to the Taliban for the methods that work; running away is not one of them.
As to the first question, what we should do is the same thing as the Taliban supporters did for them. We should equip, on the sly, those forces that are willing to fight the Taliban in the same way as the Taliban fought them. Insurgency, terrorism, and guerilla warfare work well against an established government as we have seen. Let us see just how successful the Taliban are against their own tactics.
If, on the other hand, the only goal for the secular Afghan people is survival, then let them leave their people under Taliban rule. It is up to the Afghan people to decide their own fate.
Other opinions are, of course, welcomed and sought.
If I can I prefer not to answer the first question as I simply cannot.
Look,not an expert on these topics,so I may end up saying something stupid,but i still would like to say my opinion .
I think that,at the end of the day,little to nothing could've been done to stop the Taliban,if you see the nations who supported them,apart from Pakistan,they were all powerful nations:China,Russia,Iran and for some time even Saudi Arabia,so it is almost a guarantee that a militant force supported heavily by China and Russia is successful.
Also,the Afghan government forces were incompetent and corrupt,so it was basically a conflict between a corrupt and incompetent army teaming up with some Westerner soldiers to which was given the complicated ad almost impossible task of nation-building against a overall competent militant force fighting alongside some Middle-eastern ,Chinese and Russian soldiers who didn't have to build a nation but destroy it,which is an easier task.
Is all hope gone? I don't think so. Then what's my idea? My idea is to probably attempt to cause or wait for an insurrection against the Taliban government,and then give it support and help the insurrectionists to start a new government ( and probably an American-aligned one,hopefully a democratic one).Such brutal dictatorships cannot last forever
by The Jamesian Republic » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:25 am
Page wrote:Ittonia wrote:If I can I prefer not to answer the first question as I simply cannot.
Look,not an expert on these topics,so I may end up saying something stupid,but i still would like to say my opinion .
I think that,at the end of the day,little to nothing could've been done to stop the Taliban,if you see the nations who supported them,apart from Pakistan,they were all powerful nations:China,Russia,Iran and for some time even Saudi Arabia,so it is almost a guarantee that a militant force supported heavily by China and Russia is successful.
Also,the Afghan government forces were incompetent and corrupt,so it was basically a conflict between a corrupt and incompetent army teaming up with some Westerner soldiers to which was given the complicated ad almost impossible task of nation-building against a overall competent militant force fighting alongside some Middle-eastern ,Chinese and Russian soldiers who didn't have to build a nation but destroy it,which is an easier task.
Is all hope gone? I don't think so. Then what's my idea? My idea is to probably attempt to cause or wait for an insurrection against the Taliban government,and then give it support and help the insurrectionists to start a new government ( and probably an American-aligned one,hopefully a democratic one).Such brutal dictatorships cannot last forever
Annnnnd it's the year 2050 and those American-backed insurrectionists are selling preteen girls as sex slaves but no one in America cares because everyone is focused on the fact that those rebels just flew airplanes into One World Trade Center and the Hoover Dam. Then another invasion, then in 2070 the Taliban takes over again. But fortunately, there is a group of insurrectionists...
by Aggicificicerous » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:51 am
Old Tyrannia wrote:3) The US never funded the Taliban, nor did it play any significant role in its creation. The Taliban should not be conflated with the mujahideen, who were a much larger, more ideologically heterogenous group. The Taliban's leaders were largely former mujahideen fighters, but none were especially prominent figures within the various mujahideen groups, and their main opponents were also former mujahideen and in some cases prominent leaders of the mujahideen.
Old Tyrannia wrote:Tune in next time for how the US' policy in Afghanistan was always informed more by the domestic political concerns of American politicians than by what was best for Afghanistan itself, why restoring the 1964 constitutional monarchy would have been a better option in 2001 than Hamid Karzai and the so-called Islamic Republic, and how Pakistan and the ISI continue to fuck everything up and get away with it scot-free.
by Vikanias » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:00 am
by Great Algerstonia » Thu Aug 19, 2021 11:05 am
Nationalist Northumbria wrote:They should have put me in charge.
Resilient Acceleration wrote:After a period of letting this discussion run its course without my involvement due to sheer laziness and a new related NS project, I have returned with an answer and that answer is Israel.
by Kubra » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:42 pm
Pardon my lateness, can't shitpost too brazenly at work.Duvniask wrote:Kubra wrote: also, fun fact since you mention local power-brokers, the US deliberately sidelined a good chunk of the local intellectual elite, the folks with bureaucratic resumes and inclinations, because they were too left-wing.
Not something I knew about. Where did you garner that info?
by The Land of the Ephyral » Thu Aug 19, 2021 12:44 pm
Vikanias wrote:well the US caused their own doom in Afghanistan before they even arrived.
they funded the Taliban in the 80's during the Soviet invasion, and gave them all the materials they needed to be perfect in the terrain and much more. causing the extreme difficulty NATO soldiers had to go through.
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