If it makes you feel better, you can imagine the socialist revolution being crushed under the Iron Heel.
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by Ifreann » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:08 am
by Keira » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:15 am
Ifreann wrote:Keira wrote:"I've injected myself with pessimism and now I don't know what to do with myself, so I'll just vent about how capitalism = bad". That's how I read it, at least.
I don't see how socialism would make anything better in any way.
Under socialism, definitionally, the workers control the means of production. So we could just decide to shut down the most polluting industries, without having to deal with any billionaire owners who want to carry on polluting because it's still profitable. You say yourself in a later post that every sane person knows that climate change is real and a problem. So we would expect that the workers at the 100 companies responsible for 70% of all carbon emissions would quickly down tools upon taking control of those companies.
CoraSpia wrote:For the time being, let's think about what can be done in reality rather than in a made up future world.
by CoraSpia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:18 am
by CoraSpia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:23 am
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:40 am
Keira wrote:Ifreann wrote:Under socialism, definitionally, the workers control the means of production. So we could just decide to shut down the most polluting industries, without having to deal with any billionaire owners who want to carry on polluting because it's still profitable. You say yourself in a later post that every sane person knows that climate change is real and a problem. So we would expect that the workers at the 100 companies responsible for 70% of all carbon emissions would quickly down tools upon taking control of those companies.
Just because one acknowledges climate change doesn't mean one would be willing to shut down one's place of work. A lot of the working class isn't educated enough to know about the dangers of pollution and climate change.
Just look at how angry the north still is about mine closures. The polluting mines would've needed to be closed eventually anyway (that's not why they were closed at the time, I know), but they probably wouldn't have been if it was completely up to the workers.
by Philjia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:17 am
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more
by Hurdergaryp » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:23 am
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:26 am
by Philjia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:29 am
Ifreann wrote:
You only need 250,000 people to go up the stupid fake hill and it pays for itself. That's just *googling* everyone in the City of Westminster.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:30 am
by Crysuko » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:31 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
>cant provide funding for the armed forces or the NHS
>dumps £2 million in a literal fucking pile of sand and mud.
by The Nihilistic view » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:34 am
Ifreann wrote:Keira wrote:Just because one acknowledges climate change doesn't mean one would be willing to shut down one's place of work. A lot of the working class isn't educated enough to know about the dangers of pollution and climate change.
It cannot be true both that every sane person knows that climate change is real and a problem and also that the working class isn't educated enough to know about the dangers of pollution and climate change. If people know that climate change is real and a problem then obviously they are educated enough to know about the dangers of climate change.Just look at how angry the north still is about mine closures. The polluting mines would've needed to be closed eventually anyway (that's not why they were closed at the time, I know), but they probably wouldn't have been if it was completely up to the workers.
I'm sure that there is a cohort of people who are sentimentally attached to being miners, perfectly reasonable for people to take pride in dedicating themselves to a difficult and dangerous job. But rare indeed is the person who would want to carry on mining, purely for the sake of mining, despite knowing that doing so is poisoning the whole world. And as you say, everyone these days knows that that's what's happening.Keira wrote:How about being crushed by one of the three arrows of social democracy instead?
Arrows tend to be more piercing than crushing.
by CoraSpia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:35 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
>cant provide funding for the armed forces or the NHS
>dumps £2 million in a literal fucking pile of sand and mud.
by Philjia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:36 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:
>cant provide funding for the armed forces or the NHS
>dumps £2 million in a literal fucking pile of sand and mud.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:37 am
The Nihilistic view wrote:Ifreann wrote:It cannot be true both that every sane person knows that climate change is real and a problem and also that the working class isn't educated enough to know about the dangers of pollution and climate change. If people know that climate change is real and a problem then obviously they are educated enough to know about the dangers of climate change.
I'm sure that there is a cohort of people who are sentimentally attached to being miners, perfectly reasonable for people to take pride in dedicating themselves to a difficult and dangerous job. But rare indeed is the person who would want to carry on mining, purely for the sake of mining, despite knowing that doing so is poisoning the whole world. And as you say, everyone these days knows that that's what's happening.
Arrows tend to be more piercing than crushing.
What is happening in Cumbria suggests that wouldn't be the case. There is a lot of local support there for the proposed mine, this isn't even an existing mine with the threat of losing existing jobs. So an existing mine would I suspect have even more support for it to stay open. Turkeys don't usually vote for Christmas and nor will miners vote to stop giving naughty children coal.
by Crysuko » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:39 am
Ifreann wrote:The Nihilistic view wrote:
What is happening in Cumbria suggests that wouldn't be the case. There is a lot of local support there for the proposed mine, this isn't even an existing mine with the threat of losing existing jobs. So an existing mine would I suspect have even more support for it to stay open. Turkeys don't usually vote for Christmas and nor will miners vote to stop giving naughty children coal.
Of course there's support for a proposed mine when we're still in a situation where people need a job to have a decent life.
by Kragholm Free States » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:57 am
Ifreann wrote:The Nihilistic view wrote:
What is happening in Cumbria suggests that wouldn't be the case. There is a lot of local support there for the proposed mine, this isn't even an existing mine with the threat of losing existing jobs. So an existing mine would I suspect have even more support for it to stay open. Turkeys don't usually vote for Christmas and nor will miners vote to stop giving naughty children coal.
Of course there's support for a proposed mine when we're still in a situation where people need a job to have a decent life.
by Ifreann » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:34 am
Kragholm Free States wrote:Ifreann wrote:Of course there's support for a proposed mine when we're still in a situation where people need a job to have a decent life.
We will always, no matter what system we live in, be in a situation where people need a job to have a decent life, for the simple fact that a huge amount of work is necessary to give everyone that decent life, and we need lots of people doing that work.
If workers in an entire sector will, according to you, down tools and leave at the drop of a hat, why would that be limited to environmentally suboptimal sectors? Any job that's not particularly pleasant or enjoyable would likely suffer the same problem. Sewage and drain work, rubbish collection, boring warehouse and factory jobs, hell even the green energy sector would likely struggle from poor maintenance and lack of logistical support. And before you know it the drains are backed up, the bins are overflowing, nothing's getting made, stored, or distributed, and the power's off. And then people start dying at a rate vastly outstripping what even the very worst effects of climate change could achieve.
by Hurdergaryp » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:34 am
by Crysuko » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:39 am
by Keira » Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:53 am
by Dakini » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:03 am
by Philjia » Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:19 am
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more
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