International Domestic Soccer Discussion

[Audioslavia]

With regards to the suggestion to collect IFCF submissions via a Google Sheet, it might be an idea to do it via a Google Forms thing. You'd need fields for:

Nation name:
Trigram:
CL1:
CL2*:
CL3**:
CL4***:
CL5****:
ChC1:
ChC2:
ChC3:
LBCT1:
LBCT2:
LBCT3:
CWC:
Link to post containing league table:
Other relevant links:

With asterisks denoting the various parameters for inclusion etc. The links would help the IFCF crew find the posts in order to clarify the rules have been followed and also to do their RP bonus calculation. A separate sheet for multiassociational leagues could be sent to whichever users needed it.

Doing it via Google Forms would still collate all the data into a spreadsheet format, but would also make foul play very difficult. If it helps speed up the process for the hosts, and makes it easier for newcomers to understand what they can and can't do, then it's worth considering.

[PotatoFarmers]

After half a day of "ignoring this discussion", I went to attempt to do up the form, but then 30 minutes in it came to a point where I have decided "this is too much". To be frank with you, the idea of using a form to assist entry addition really struck a chord with me. If we were open to using a form to improve the speed of data entry, and focus on just grading the RPs, then our job is simpler, yes?

But then, when I actually start the form, I realise how stupid it can get.

Frankly speaking, I would think that having a discord botto do the job might even be better. Or if I can lay my hands on a SQL server. Because in these platforms, we can enter logic more intuitively. Ways to do fool-proof entering and ensuring that the data comes in smoothly. Not the same with forms. Data comes in in a row. You can imagine it to be something along the lines of Assoc - Club1 - Club2 - Club3 - Club4 - Club5 - etc. But then again, there are multiassoc issues, and also, transposing them using a formula that isn't intuitive and automatic already creates too much effort. I might as well write a script, download the entire forum page as html, and output as csv - opening in excel allows me to copy entire cells directly into the entry sheet.

If anything, I think it would be better if leagues ensure that they submit their answers much earlier. The data entry part isn't difficult, the generation of entry lists is. And that would be difficult if we have no clue about how many leagues we are expecting. In fact, if everything comes in timely way before cutoff, we can finish grading, and devote full attention on generating entry lists.

I use an aviation analogy to help me.

Before a plane departs, aircraft crew and ground staff will have checks to make and checklist of things to do. Generating passenger lists, looking at how to load balance a plane, how much fuel is required to carry the load, are there special arrangements which need to be done, checking systems are in place, etc. etc. If we can get all these done before hand, then the plane departs on time. If everyone gets in way before the departure time, the checks and the safety briefs can start early, the pilots can request to depart the gate early, and the plane could be in the air on schedule. On the other hand, if passengers are doing the check-in late, boarding the plane late, then the cabin crew can't begin load checks, generating passenger rosters, and doing things that can only be done during taxiing. That delays flight schedules as a whole.

We could be improving the time by reducing our workload. But imo, the use of a form doesn't necessarily improve things. It would be similar to the time taken if we manually look through every entry posted on the IDSN. What is more important is the structure and the format of the entry post. The RPs/RP links posted all at the top; easy access to the final tables that show the sporting merit; not messing up the entry box - these are some things which everyone can do. And also, making sure those entries aren't rushed in at the final moments. That creates a log jam for whoever is entering the entries, and the time will naturally snowball into other things.

Of course, the IFCF committee as a whole can look at a few things. We can look at updating the entry guidelines and regulations, putting up a better OP (we could even discuss changing the OP of the IDSN thread or starting a new thread altogether) and also simplifying the way entry lists are generated. Those are the backend stuff that we can and should look at. But everything has to have a purpose and some benefits. And I have realized that the purpose/benefits of a form doesn't add up as well as I previously thought. Unless someone has a better gameplan with that. I just can't see how I can automate it into the correct format without manual labour.

[San Ortelio]

Not sure if it could be an improvement, but would a staggered deadline improve the process?

By example, you need to submit your entry per the predescribed format as in a new OP (link to domestic newswire, RP finalization confirmation*, final tables of first (and if applicable) second division, last 3 rounds of Cup (if applicable), youth competition (if applicable), entry box) and nothing more by day X.

RP must to be finalized by day X+3 (or 4 or 2 or 5, dunno).

*People who have finalized before day X can indicate that in their entry sheet via a straightforward yes/no - as such, those newswires can be graded already during the first 3 (or 4 or...) days.

After the second cut-off, all that is needed is to grade those leagues which still were wrapping up and indicated 'no' in their RP finalization confirmation.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Another (minor but specific) thing I've noticed is people who post split their league posts but in the IDSN itself. Having links to each post in the final post with the submissions (in the same manner as those with independent newswires) would help us grade it all in one go instead of grading each post individually and going back through to maintain consistency.

[Krytenia]

Of course, the IFCF committee as a whole can look at a few things. We can look at updating the entry guidelines and regulations, putting up a better OP (we could even discuss changing the OP of the IDSN thread or starting a new thread altogether) and also simplifying the way entry lists are generated. Those are the backend stuff that we can and should look at. But everything has to have a purpose and some benefits. And I have realized that the purpose/benefits of a form doesn't add up as well as I previously thought. Unless someone has a better gameplan with that. I just can't see how I can automate it into the correct format without manual labour.

I think a new thread is a good idea - indeed, would a new thread per IFCF season be workable?

[Kelssek]

What problem are you trying to solve there, Kry?

To me, spreading out the work goes into the "would be nice" category and I'm open to experimenting with rewards for earlier submissions... but we all know how people respond to deadlines in other aspects of life. Patience on the part of the community goes a lot further, IMO.

[Krytenia]

What problem are you trying to solve there, Kry?

Less solving a problem, more extrapolating from Poaf's suggestion.

[PotatoFarmers]

What problem are you trying to solve there, Kry?

Less solving a problem, more extrapolating from Poaf's suggestion.

To be frank, the idea I had in my head more about restarting IDSN. 1 per season is rather...obsessive.

Another (minor but specific) thing I've noticed is people who post split their league posts but in the IDSN itself. Having links to each post in the final post with the submissions (in the same manner as those with independent newswires) would help us grade it all in one go instead of grading each post individually and going back through to maintain consistency.

And also, to add, we aren't saying that you should stop posting split posts in here. At least link everything together and staple them as a bundle for submission in the final post.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Of course, the IFCF committee as a whole can look at a few things. We can look at updating the entry guidelines and regulations, putting up a better OP (we could even discuss changing the OP of the IDSN thread or starting a new thread altogether) and also simplifying the way entry lists are generated. Those are the backend stuff that we can and should look at. But everything has to have a purpose and some benefits. And I have realized that the purpose/benefits of a form doesn't add up as well as I previously thought. Unless someone has a better gameplan with that. I just can't see how I can automate it into the correct format without manual labour.

I think a new thread is a good idea - indeed, would a new thread per IFCF season be workable?

A new IFCF-owned IDSN yes, especially as we could reserve the first few posts to post regulations, signup formats, and other relevant links. A thread per season, no.

[Osarius]

Frankly speaking, I would think that having a discord botto do the job might even be better. Or if I can lay my hands on a SQL server. Because in these platforms, we can enter logic more intuitively. Ways to do fool-proof entering and ensuring that the data comes in smoothly. Not the same with forms. Data comes in in a row. You can imagine it to be something along the lines of Assoc - Club1 - Club2 - Club3 - Club4 - Club5 - etc. But then again, there are multiassoc issues, and also, transposing them using a formula that isn't intuitive and automatic already creates too much effort. I might as well write a script, download the entire forum page as html, and output as csv - opening in excel allows me to copy entire cells directly into the entry sheet.

Immediately I can tell you that a discord bot is a non-starter for several reasons, but mainly a) not everyone would have access to it, and b) the method would inevitably leave too much room for error due to the way discord bots detect input.

As for a SQL server instance... not really necessary. Feels like you're overcomplicating the solution at this point.

Not that any of this actually addresses the real issue here. You can't work toward a goal that doesn't exist. There is no solution for a problem that is undefined. So what exactly are we trying to do with a form? What issues are we trying to eliminate? Can these issues be addressed in a logical manner? Can the quotas and restrictions be automatically calculated/generated and applied? It sounds like you tried and failed, but I don't know what you were trying to do so I can't offer any assistance.

Once it's clear what issues need to be addressed, and which ones are realistically achievable... then we can start talking about how to solve them. If someone could outline the desired logical checks (and how they would be applied by a human) it would be far easier for someone like me to then attempt to develop a solution with some degree of automation.





TL;DR what would be needed from an entry form solution? Give me specs and I'll try to build it.

[PotatoFarmers]

*snip*
TL;DR what would be needed from an entry form solution? Give me specs and I'll try to build it.

I was merely trying to proof that the form thing isn't as worth as what it is said to be, don't intend to follow with any of those solutions, but you could try to see if something clicks (mine doesn't)

Basically, a form that would allow for entries to be entered, ensured that they follow the guidelines (in terms of number of slots), links to all the RPs, place where they explain how their sporting merit is derived from (optional), and then translate all the details into the correct format so that we can Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V into the IFCF scorinator sheet. I guess that will do.

[Graintfjall]

I’m not trying to interrupt the important discussions ongoing, so I’m hiding all this beneath spoiler. If you have players/interest in my league, please read. If you wish to discuss anything, TG/DM me.

I’m going to run an extra domestic season.

It will probably take place once the CR is over, and the soft aim (insert disclaimers here about how terrible you all know I am with procrastination) of getting it done within a week or two.

This is because my ratio between domestic and international, originally established at 2:1, is increasingly out of alignment. I have run 5 domestic seasons, but I have been here for 6 or 7 seasons’ worth of international competitions.

There has been some talk of moving to a 1:1 ratio in order to facilitate faster WC cycles, to accommodate the size of domestic leagues, and for other reasons. It is not my intention to pre-empt that decision at all. It simply doesn’t work for me, personally; I want to try to maintain a 2:1 ratio. This is, in part, an experiment to see whether I can manage a 2:1 ratio. If I can’t I will rethink things. But I’d rather try and find out than just give in automatically. I am absolutely not attempting to force the hands of IFCF organizers or impel anyone else to do anything like this.

This means the first season will not be submitted to IFCF. It is still my intention to submit the second.

For foreign players in my league, I will be ageing them up 2 in my internal database across the 2 seasons, but I will abide by the ageing regime of their owner (in almost all cases this is 1 per IFCF) when I re-list them on the transfer window. Other players may handle their ages when placing them in international rosters or otherwise as they see fit.

I will be ageing my players in foreign leagues up in keeping with the same 2:1 ratio i.e. each CR squad is 2 years older than the last CR squad and 1 year older than the last WC squad. If foreign domestic leagues are out of 2:1 alignment, those users can internally age my players as they see fit, and I will correct their ages if they return to the transfer window.

I didn’t announce this at the start of the transfer window as it hadn’t really occurred to me then and I was busy with other things, but I am putting it out now while the window is still (just about) open so that if anyone has a major problem with this they have the chance to yank their players (or ditch mine).

Now back to the IFCF discussion.

[PotatoFarmers]

IC explanation of how the upcoming domestic cycle will work for Poafmersia

Like the GPL, there will be 2 upcoming seasons for the Apex. Those seasons will be scorinated as per usual, like any other season, with IFCF being affected as above. Aging will take place as per normal for foreigners as though 1 year has past per IFCF cycle. If you would prefer another aging method, you may slide me a TG on Poafmersia or DM me on discord.
(And yes, Graint, I will help you double age your players in my league. You can do the same for mine. We can cross-adjust where necessary in the TW).

[Savojarna]

I still strongly oppose any move to 1 IFCF = 1 WC to the extent that it significantly reduces my enjoyment of domestic football RPing because it requires some sort of handwaving (either for "why are there so many WC's", "why are the seasons suddenly twice as long as makes any sense", or "why are there no transfers half the seasons") that significantly lowers my perceived quality of my league.

That being said, it appears rather unavoidable by now? Hence, I will likely follow Graint and Poaf in scorinating two seasons wherever possible. Additionally, I request that Savojar players abroad be moved to a "one year per international tournament (Copa Rushmori and World Cup)" scheme IF there is a move towards 1:1. You're free to interact that with IFCF as you see fit if I am forced to decouple them, as other people's domestic timelines are not really my concern.

[Tikariot]

[deleted by user]

[Kelssek]

IFCF Council has been working on codifying the rules in an easier-to-read manner. It formalizes some unwritten practices that CH and/or we have been following, and standardizes some things that were a bit ad hoc (like deciding which teams get byes in the qualifying rounds). A first edition is now presented below for public comment and feedback. I'm not expecting most of this to be controversial, but hey.

This shouldn't be seen as a comprehensive or exclusive set of rules, as 1.01(3) implies. There are rules in the UICA regulations that are clear enough and will still apply (and you can still enter teams from the last season if you find yourself strapped for time before an impending deadline).

Some things to draw your attention to:

2.04 - This is the potential firecracker. While every association always gets at least one Champions League spot, leagues with less than 8 teams will be limited in their entries to the Challengers Cup. This avoids absurdities of half or more of a league gaining entry to international tournaments which are meant to reflect the very best of each country.

3.02 - Abolishes the away goals rule entirely. This would match what UEFA competitions are adopting for the current RL season. However, some feel it should be retained as is, or that a more minor change should be that it doesn't apply after extra time (in case you didn't realize this IRL, up to now if the away team in the 2nd leg scored in extra time, it won the tie if the a.e.t. score was a draw).

There are also terminology changes to conform with UEFA, such as "league" instead of "non-champions" path and the names of rounds in the qualifying phase. Also, no more apostrophes for the names except Cup Winners' Cup. I am available to rant further about how the way they have been used is grammatically incorrect, causes technical problems in things like NSSWiki or searching for the name of the competition (because apostrophes are literally different depending on the OS and language/keyboard settings you use), and have not been kept consistent anyway.

---

IFCF Competition Regulations

ARTICLE 1. GENERAL
1.01 (1) In case of any inconsistency, these regulations supersede existing UICA rules and previous practice.
(2) The regulations may be amended by decision of the IFCF Council.
(3) Where these regulations are silent, the UICA Guidelines and Regulations, and the most recent Regulations of the UEFA Champions League, may be used solely as references. The IFCF Council shall have the final decision on such issues.
(4) If clarification is required, please contact the IFCF Council in order to expedite update to the regulations

ARTICLE 2. ENTRIES FOR THE COMPETITIONS

Club names
2.01 (1) Sponsor names may not be used in IFCF competitions unless it is the club’s formal, permanent name and reflects a substantive and permanent relationship between the organization and the club.
(2) Club names may not contain offensive, insulting, or abusive language.
(3) Club names when submitted should be 20 characters or shorter to allow for use in standard formatting of scores.
(4) IFCF may require clubs to enter under altered names so as to enforce this section.

2.02 Leagues and teams may not be perceptibly similar to a real-world league or utilize real-world teams. They must be clearly distinct from the real world and demonstrate creative effort.

Eligibility for participation
2.03 (1) To be eligible to participate in IFCF competitions, clubs must have qualified on the basis of sporting merit.
(2) Associations must utilize transparent, objective, and non-discriminatory criteria to decide the clubs submitted to IFCF competitions.

(i) If league position is a criteria for qualification, a higher-ranked club may not be passed over for a lower-ranked club, or submitted as a lower seed.
(ii) A club must enter the highest competition for which it qualifies. The ranking of competitions is as follows: Champions League, Challengers Cup, Liga B Champions Trophy.

(3) If a club refuses to enter a competition, having qualified for it on sporting merit and being otherwise eligible to enter, no other club from the same association may be entered in its place.
(4) Clubs may only qualify for one IFCF competition every season, with the exception of IFCF Cup Winners Cup, where the qualifying club (national cup winner) may also qualify for another IFCF competition.
(5) Secondary or reserve teams of clubs are not eligible for IFCF competition, and will have their places passed on to another club from the same association.

Entry limits based on league size
2.04 (1) Associations whose highest league division consists of eight teams or less are limited to one place in the Champions League.
(2) The number of Challengers Cup places an association is entitled to is limited according to the number of teams in its highest league division.

(i) Nine teams or more: three
(ii) Between five and eight teams: two
(iii) Four teams or less: zero

(2) This does not affect entry into the Challengers Cup via the Champions League route.
(3) These limits do not apply to the additional places awarded for titleholders.

Considerations for titleholders
2.05 (1) The titleholders of the Champions League and Challengers Cup qualify automatically for the subsequent edition of the Champions League. If they would not normally qualify via domestic competition, their associations are granted one extra place in the IFCF competition, subject to the provisions of this section.
(2) If the Challengers Cup winner also qualifies for the Champions League through domestic competition, the additional place is vacated.
(3) If the Champions League winner qualifies for the Challengers Cup, the place that it would otherwise have taken in the Challengers Cup is vacated. The association does not receive an extra place.
(4) In the event that both the Champions League and Challengers Cup titleholders are from the same association ranked 1-4, and neither qualified for the Champions League through its domestic league, the association’s fourth-placed team is placed in the Challengers Cup group stage in addition to the usual sixteen direct entrants.

Submission of entries
2.06 Associations shall utilize the format specified in appendix 1 to submit entries to the location specified by IFCF Council. Entries which do not use the standard form risk being overlooked.
(2) The IFCF Council shall announce the deadline for entries in the International Domestic Soccer Newswires thread at least one week before the specified time.
(3) IFCF Council retains full discretion on whether to accommodate improper or late submissions.

Multiassociational leagues
2.07 (1) This section operates in addition to the rules on multiassociational leagues in the UICA Guidelines and Regulations.
(2) Secondary associations are not eligible for additional Champions League places by virtue of their association rank.The next-highest ranked association(s) are granted the additional places instead.

ARTICLE 3. COMPETITION FORMAT

General
3.01 (1) The Champions League, Challengers Cup, and Liga B Champions Trophy consist of a qualifying phase, group phase, and knockout phase.
(2) The final is held at a neutral site.
(3) All rounds of the qualifying phase, and of the knockout phase prior to the final, are played as home-and-away ties.
(4) Teams representing the same association cannot be drawn against each other, or in the same group, until the quarterfinals.

3.02 For home-and-away ties, if the aggregate score is level, the following criteria decide which team advances:

1. extra time
2. kicks from the penalty mark

3.03 (1) Teams’ starting rounds are determined by the needs of each cycle according to priority order given in appendix 2. Competition-specific provisions for reserved places in sections 3.05 and 3.07 take precedence.
(2) In a qualifying phase, draws for each round are seeded according to club coefficients. Teams representing the same association cannot be drawn against each other. The draw shall also determine which team will play the first leg at home.

3.04 (1) In a group stage, three points are awarded for a win and one for a draw.
(2) If two or more teams finish with the same number of points, the following criteria decide their ranking:

1. higher number of points obtained in the group matches played among the teams in question,
2. superior goal difference from the group matches played among the teams in question,
3. higher number of goals scored in the group matches played among the teams in question,
4. higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played among the teams in question,
5. superior goal difference,
6. higher number of goals scored,
7. higher number of goals scored away from home,
8. higher number of wins,
9. higher number of wins away from home,
10. lower disciplinary points total based only on yellow and red cards received in all group matches (red card = 3 points, yellow card = 1 point, expulsion for two yellow cards in one match = 3 points),
11. Champions’ Cup and Globe Cup: higher club coëfficient ranking,
Series B Champions’ Cup and Youth Cup: drawing of lots,
Super Cup: kicks from the penalty mark.

(3) In the Super Cup, only criteria 1, 5, 6, and 11c apply.

Champions League
3.05 (1) The qualifying phase is divided into two paths. The champions of each association enter the champions path, while clubs qualifying through league position enter the league path.

(2) The champions path is composed of:

• preliminary rounds, if required;
• first qualifying round;
• second qualifying round;
• third qualifying round;
• playoff round

The league path is composed of:

• second qualifying round;
• third qualifying round;
• playoff round

(3) All teams eliminated in the qualifying phase enter the subsequent round of the Challengers Cup, except in the playoff round:

(i) Teams eliminated in the playoff round of the champions path enter the group stage of the Challengers Cup.
(ii) Teams eliminated in the playoff round of the league path enter the playoff round of the Challengers Cup.

(4) The titleholder, the champions of associations ranked 1–12, and the runners-up of associations ranked 1–3 qualify directly for the group stage.

3.05 (1) The group stage of the Champions League consists of eight groups of four.
(2) Seeding for the group stage is determined by club coefficient, except that the titleholders and the champions of the top seven associations are seeded in pot 1.

3.06 (1) The top two teams in each group advance to the first knockout round, while the third-placed teams enter the Challengers Cup first knockout round.
(2) Group winners play the second leg at home in the first knockout round. Open draws are used for the quarter-finals onward.

Challengers Cup
3.07 (1) The qualifying phase of the Challengers Cup is composed of:

• preliminary rounds, if required;
• first qualifying round;
• second qualifying round;
• third qualifying round;
• fourth qualifying round;
• playoff round

(2) The third seeds of associations 1-4, the second seeds of associations 5-8, and first seeds of associations 13-32 enter in the third qualifying round.
(3) The third seeds of associations 5-12 enter the second qualifying round.
(4) The first and second seeds of associations 1–4, and first seeds of associations 5–12, enter the Challengers Cup at the group stage.
(5) Competition organizers may grant additional advancements as necessary.

3.08 (1) The group phase of the Challengers Cup consists of twelve groups of four. The top two teams of each group advance to the first knockout round.

Super Cup
3.09 The Super Cup is played by the winners of the Champions League, Challengers Cup and Liga B Champions Trophy. The three teams play a single round-robin, with the Challengers Cup winner hosting the Liga B Champions Trophy winner first, followed by the Liga B Champions Trophy winner hosting the Champions League winner, and finally the Champions League winner hosting the Challengers Cup winner. If any two or all three teams remain tied after the three matches, kicks from the penalty mark will be played after the final match.

Cup Winners’ Cup
3.10 Only the winner of a national domestic or league cup competition is eligible to enter the Cup Winners’ Cup. The titleholder is entitled to an additional berth should it fail to qualify through its association’s cup competition.


APPENDIX 1.
[Submission form goes here]

APPENDIX 2. QUALIFYING PHASE PRIORITY
For each competition, all teams entered are ranked on a priority list to receive byes in the qualifying phase. While advancements will necessarily vary each cycle due to different numbers of teams entered in each tournament, byes should be awarded in accordance with the priority list. IFCF Council retains the discretion to adjust as necessary to ensure acceptable competition formats.

Champions League
A2.01 (1) Entrants in the champions path are ranked by association.
(2) In the league path, priority is as follows:

(i) Third seeds of associations 1-4;
(ii) Second seeds of associations 5-8;
(iii) Fourth seeds of associations 1-4;
(iv) Third seeds of associations 5-8;
(v) Second seeds of associations 9-32.

Challengers Cup
A2.02 (1) First seeds of associations 1-12 and second seeds of associations 1-4 qualify directly for the group phase.
(2) Priority in the qualifying phase is as follows:

(i) Third seeds of associations 1-4;
(ii) Second seeds of associations 5-12;
(iii) First seeds of associations 13-32;
(iv) Third seeds of associations 5-12;
(v) All other first seeds ranked by association;
(vi) All other second seeds ranked by association;
(vii) All other third seeds ranked by association;
(viii) All other entrants.

Liga B Champions Trophy
A2.03 (1) Priority in the qualifying phase is as follows:

(i) First seeds of associations 1-12;
(ii) Second seeds of associations 1-12;
(iii) Third seeds of associations 1-12;
(iv) All other first seeds ranked by association;
(v) All other second seeds ranked by association;
(vi) All other third seeds ranked by association;
(vii) All other entrants.

[Ceni]

Entry limits based on league size
2.04 (1) Associations whose highest league division consists of eight teams or less are limited to one place in the Champions League.
(2) The number of Challengers Cup places an association is entitled to is limited according to the number of teams in its highest league division.

(i) Nine teams or more: three
(ii) Between five and eight teams: two
(iii) Four teams or less: zero

(2) This does not affect entry into the Challengers Cup via the Champions League route.
(3) These limits do not apply to the additional places awarded for titleholders.

Even though I'm not involved in domestic soccer much any more, I do have a question about multiassociational leagues as it applies to 2.04. If a multiassociational league had 2 associations with 8 teams each (so to make a league of 16 teams total), would the combined league be limited to 4 places in the Challengers Cup, or would it have the full 6 allotted to it under older UICA practice? What if the split was 12/8 (like the old Terranean League East)?

[Kelssek]

Yes, noted that I need to clarify that the section does not apply to multiassociational leagues. They already have implied limits.

[Quintessence of Dust]

14/20 teams qualified from the Shango-Fogoa Premier League (FFD/BNJ) this cycle. What is the implied limit? The guidance makes it clear more than half of teams progressing is permitted, and this is the case in the worked example shown.

[Kelssek]

I'm referring to the fact that primary associations must have at least as many teams in a multi-associational league as they have qualification places. But this really is besides the point. Do you think that all teams in a four-team league should qualify for IFCF? If yes, why? Where should the line be drawn if you do not agree with how the new rules would draw it? How can this be compatible with the idea behind the Champions League/Challengers Cup being something most clubs would consider an achievement to reach, something requiring "sporting merit"?

[Quintessence of Dust]

I don't think a team that finishes 5th out of 8 qualifying for the CC is sillier than a team finishing 14th out 20 qualifying for the CC.

Do you think that all teams in a four-team league should qualify for IFCF?

No (though it was my, probably incorrect, understanding that a league had to have 8 teams minimum to advance anyone).

Where should the line be drawn if you do not agree with how the new rules would draw it?

I think if it is an absurdity for teams from the bottom half of a league to advance to the CC, then it's an absurdity for teams from the bottom half of a league to advance to the CC. If the intention is to exclude such teams, then just have the rule exclude all such teams, irrespective of league size.

[Kelssek]

You are using the special case of multi-associational leagues to make claims regarding what should be accepted for the standard single-association leagues. They aren't the same thing, which is why they have different rules.

Moreover, international club football operates on the basis of associations, not leagues strictly speaking, which is the logic we've been using to say that some leagues can get lots of spots because more than one user is involved in them.

[Quintessence of Dust]

If you're not basing it on leagues, why did you express it in terms of a league?

This avoids absurdities of half or more of a league gaining entry to international tournaments which are meant to reflect the very best of each country.

I'm not trying to be antsy (and have no personal issue with Farf and Banija, who are lovely). But they are an example of "half or more of a league gaining entry to international tournaments".

But OK, forget multiassociations. A top league like Audioslavia could contract to 10 teams; their 7th ranked team would be qualifying. Yet 5/8 is where to "draw the line"?

I don't think this rule makes any sense in that IFCF does not otherwise take into account any direct relationship between league size and league strength. I would prefer a minimum league size of 8 teams be enforced, but I don't see that 2.04 is otherwise fair relative to how qualifying spots are handed out.

[PotatoFarmers]

I don't think a team that finishes 5th out of 8 qualifying for the CC is sillier than a team finishing 14th out 20 qualifying for the CC.

Do you think that all teams in a four-team league should qualify for IFCF?

No (though it was my, probably incorrect, understanding that a league had to have 8 teams minimum to advance anyone).

Where should the line be drawn if you do not agree with how the new rules would draw it?

I think if it is an absurdity for teams from the bottom half of a league to advance to the CC, then it's an absurdity for teams from the bottom half of a league to advance to the CC. If the intention is to exclude such teams, then just have the rule exclude all such teams, irrespective of league size.

You do realise that the size limits are independent of the number of spots the association has? So for a top association who has 4 CL + 3 ChC spots, they can enter all 7 based on the rules as long as they have at least 9 teams in the league.
Also, just pointing out that both Ban and Farf has 10 teams in the S-FPL (Maybe not exact 10 for Ban, since they have 1-2 teams from Busoga Islands iirc?)

[Quintessence of Dust]

You do realise that the size limits are independent of the number of spots the association has? So for a top association who has 4 CL + 3 ChC spots, they can enter all 7 based on the rules as long as they have at least 9 teams in the league.
Also, just pointing out that both Ban and Farf has 10 teams in the S-FPL (Maybe not exact 10 for Ban, since they have 1-2 teams from Busoga Islands iirc?)

Yes. That's exactly what I said!

A top league like Audioslavia could contract to 10 teams; their 7th ranked team would be qualifying.