Treatment of Uyghurs in China

[Stellar Colonies]

Catchphrases are not evidence.

[Baltenstein]

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

It's unlikely to happen. More likely will be an internal coup against Xi if he does some major fuckup in domestic or foreign area.

Xi should take precautions to prevent that.

I actually have a cunning idea on how to achieve just that: Organize the nation's youth into a fanaticized militia and use them to witch-hunt your domestic opponents.

[Alcala-Cordel]

I’m surprised that Turkey and Indonesia haven’t gotten mad at China, because of the uyghurs being Turkic and Muslim

Most Muslim countries don't. It's so much easier to scapegoat and bash a tiny Western country in the Levant than it is to stand up to a communist bully. Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, a number of Gulf states, etc. are using Sinovac and Sinopharm in their vaccination rollouts.

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

The CIA would just destabilize China and put a precarious dictatorship in.

[Mercatus]

Most Muslim countries don't. It's so much easier to scapegoat and bash a tiny Western country in the Levant than it is to stand up to a communist bully. Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, a number of Gulf states, etc. are using Sinovac and Sinopharm in their vaccination rollouts.

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

The CIA would just destabilize China and put a precarious dictatorship in.

Free helicopter rides with Chinese Pinochet?

[Dowaesk]

Pole: 55 say no

Me:
(Image)

And we got 4 who say it can be justifed and 5 who says that it can be justified, but not what is happening at the moment

[-Astoria-]

The CIA would just destabilize China and put a precarious dictatorship in.

Free helicopter rides with Chinese Pinochet?

Now that is incredibly cursed.

[Muzehnaya]

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/chin ... esearcher/

read this and see if you can say that again.

This article is a complete mess. Watching Grayzone trying to discredit Zenz for being far right is nothing short of completely hilarious, especially given the affiliations of some of their own editors and writers. I would consider Grayzone in general as unreliable, given that they regularly spew nonsense advocating climate change denialism, the anti-vaxxer movement, and a bizarre obsession with George Soros.

Aside from their criticism of Zenz (despite the fact that there are plenty of other people who also have studied the matter, such as Timothy Grose and Darren Byler), they also criticize the fact that "ONLY 8 UYGHURS WERE INTERVIEWED," conveniently ignoring the fact that they all came from different villages, and ending up with numbers similar to those on official government documents. They also mention the fact that research was funded by an American NGO, which proves absolutely nothing.

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-m ... esearcher/

Here is evidence that most of these claims are lies or are simply incorrect. There is no evidence for forced sterilization or ‘cultural genocide’, and the allegations of mass rape or experimentation are not very credible.

This article is, unsurprisingly, also garbage. Same bad source, and the article starts off with the same tired and hypocritical criticism of Zenz. It also makes the claim that there is only an 8.7% net added IUD placement procedures in Xinjiang, as opposed to Zenz's claim of 80%. This is a misrepresentation of his study, which compared IUD insertions to removals from the years of 2015 to 2018. It also attempts to invalidate testimony from Uyghur exiles by citing the testimony of family members still in Xinjiang. I shouldn't have to explain how mind numbingly stupid this is.

Neither of these articles definitively disprove anything.

[Reploid Productions]

Standby, trawl in progress.

[Reploid Productions]

Do yourself a favor and stop simping for China.

That's pretty funny considering you simp for China

Yes. I'm sure tankies are free thinkers that don't follow anything that doesn't come from either China, Venezuela, Cuba or Palestine.

P.s: Xi Jinping isn't going to have sex with you

A child's guide to online political discussion

Hmm, idk. It may have to do that it's the same repeated and terrible arguments I've from China simps on Twitter. Also why do you simp for China?

Because making actual arguments against tankies is a complete waste of time. You guys just label everything you don't like as fake news CIA propaganda

Given basically every single post of yours in this thread has been nothing but flamebaity sniping, maybe you should consider making actual arguments next time. Or if it's such a waste of time to "make actual arguments", I recommend that you choose to abstain from posting in the discussion in the first place. *** National Capitalist United States, 7-day ban for flamebaiting. ***

Tankies gonna be tankies I guess.

For tankies it’s simply only a matter of aesthetics.

Maybe you should review the site rules before your throwaway baity jabs get you in hot water as well.

I love how I can post about actual propaganda and then prove beyond any doubt that it’s propaganda and a bunch of supposedly independent minded liberals will come to repeat phrases at me. It’s like I’m talking to robots.

For liberals it’s simply only a matter of what they are programmed to believe.

dude are you an actual bot or something?

-snip-

Why do you insist on responding like a bot and refusing to even consider my arguments?

Actually most of the world doesn’t support the mostly western propaganda about Xinjiang and no I am not shilling for nazi Germany. Assuming you are an American, you support a government that daily helps Saudi Arabia starve Yemen, helps Israel destroy Palestine, bombs mostly innocents all over the world, and has massacred millions in the last fifty years. The PRC meanwhile hasn’t done anything like that and even if they wanted to they wouldn’t have the capability.

Who is the nazi again?

>SIMP SIMP SIMP SIMP

why do you respond with infant like insults and not actual arguments? Are you 13 or something?

Because making actual arguments against liberals is a complete waste of time. You guys just label everything you don’t like as fake news or Chinese propaganda.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and being baited doesn't give you a free pass to respond in kind. *** Orostan, 3-day ban for flamebaiting/trolling. ***

i think you need to take some antipsychotics cause the cia isn't the omnipresent all powerful global terror you think it is.

You can make your arguments without backhandedly calling your opponents psychotic. *** Western Theram, 1-day ban for flamebaiting. ***

Pole: 55 say no

Me:
(Image)

Knock off the spam posting.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion once I get the paperwork filed.

~Evil Forum Empress Rep Prod the Ninja Mod
~She who wields the Banhammer; master of the mighty moderation no-dachi Kiritateru Teikoku

[The Sovereign Realist State]

in case no one has posted yet, I think this article is quite relevant:

https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/ar ... war-terror

"(...) Were there innocent people rounded up by mistake? Quite possibly (although we can only speculate). Have there been human rights abuses at these centres? Casting a critical eye, and bearing in mind how busy the ETIM’s propaganda machine must be, some of the allegations seem credible and others are obviously fake. There is no proof, however, that the abuses are systematic or ordered from above.

(...) Unlike the US’ war on terror, China’s counterterrorism campaign seems to have worked. There have been no reports of terror attacks since 2017.

(...) In the space of 40 years, the Uygur population in Xinjiang grew from 5.5 million to more than 12 million. Between 2010 and 2018, the Uygur population increased by 25 per cent, compared with 2 per cent for the Han population. It is well known that China implemented a one-child policy between 1979 and 2015. What is not well understood is that non-Han ethnic groups such as the Uygurs were exempt from the birth control policy, and couples in rural areas were allowed to have up to three children. China’s birth control policies discriminate in favour of, not against, non-Han ethnic groups including the Uygurs. "

[New haven america]

I’m surprised that Turkey and Indonesia haven’t gotten mad at China, because of the uyghurs being Turkic and Muslim

Most Muslim countries don't. It's so much easier to scapegoat and bash a tiny Western country in the Levant than it is to stand up to a communist bully. Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, a number of Gulf states, etc. are using Sinovac and Sinopharm in their vaccination rollouts.

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

No, the CIA would just install a right-wing dictatorship to destabilize the region and make China hate America even more.

Because they never learn their fucking lesson.

[Mercatus]

Most Muslim countries don't. It's so much easier to scapegoat and bash a tiny Western country in the Levant than it is to stand up to a communist bully. Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, a number of Gulf states, etc. are using Sinovac and Sinopharm in their vaccination rollouts.

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

No, the CIA would just install a right-wing dictatorship to destabilize the region and make China hate America even more.

Because they never learn their lesson.

What can the CIA learn that it doesn’t already know? I think it’s so powerful and secretive that it just exists for the employees to have shits and giggles with the geopolitical situation.

[Free Ravensburg]

Most Muslim countries don't. It's so much easier to scapegoat and bash a tiny Western country in the Levant than it is to stand up to a communist bully. Turkey, Indonesia, Malaysia, a number of Gulf states, etc. are using Sinovac and Sinopharm in their vaccination rollouts.

The CIA actually getting involved and toppling Xi would be a dream come true for me. If only the agency was as omnipotent as tankies keep saying it is. I openly support the CIA and Mike Pompeo to destroy the CCP from within.

No, the CIA would just install a right-wing dictatorship to destabilize the region and make China hate America even more.

Because they never learn their fucking lesson.

Tbh, wouldn’t that cause another Mingsplosion?

[Odreria]

>I’m very interested in the truth that’s why I won’t read people who refute the CIA propaganda I have internalized

Ok, I will go over this for you!

The claims China is trying to decrease the Uyghur birth rate come from a “researcher” named Adrian Zenz, who is a fanatical Christian that believes god sent him to destroy the CPC. Zenz is only able to claim that China is trying to stop the Uyghur population from reproducing by omitting data that shows Han Chinese people actually have a lower birth rate than Uyghur people. In addition, the Chinese government recently began enforcing its one child policy on Uyghurs when previously the policy only applied to Han people. The Chinese government itself has stated that the decrease in the growth rate of the Uyghur population after 2017 was due to the application of this policy and I see no reason to doubt them on this considering that every source of data available proves this.

In Chinese documents Zenz cites he fails to prove that birth control provided by the government was 1) coercive and 2) omits information implying that the Chinese government is actually satisfied with how things are currently and has no particular desire to reduce birth rates further. He also omits information about health and poverty reduction programs from those documents that would have the effect of reducing birth rates over time. Zenz then takes data out of context to claim that China is putting 80% of new IUDS in people from Xinjiang among other things.

I can move on to those “witnesses” now too if you like.

“Everything I don’t agree with and doesn’t fall in line with what CCP state media says is CIA propaganda!”

How is anyone supposed to talk about literally anything with you if you accuse anyone who in any way questions your worldview of being brainwashed?

>no how dare you oppose a propaganda war by the US government

I guess world war three is progressive when it’s against China now.


For liberals it’s simply only a matter of what they are programmed to believe.

"Everyone has been brainwashed by CIA propaganda except for me! I am the sole voice of logic and reason! Only I know the truth and the entire world is being deceived!"

Yeah this is pure projection.

[New haven america]

I do wonder why a lot of Chinese nationalists use the excuse "If you're against the CCP/PRC" then you're just buying into CIA propaganda. (This is a common argument used when talking about the Uyghur Genocide)

Like, ok, dearies. If the CIA wanted to deal with China, they wouldn't use homegrown propaganda. They'd go into China and depose your current dictator and you'd be none the wiser until like, 10-20 years down the line.

Hi!

I am a magical anime girl in service of the CIA with superpowers many consider unnatural.

Ask me anything.

Where are you hiding the catgirls?

[Muzehnaya]

"(...) Were there innocent people rounded up by mistake? Quite possibly (although we can only speculate). Have there been human rights abuses at these centres? Casting a critical eye, and bearing in mind how busy the ETIM’s propaganda machine must be, some of the allegations seem credible and others are obviously fake. There is no proof, however, that the abuses are systematic or ordered from above.

No, none of this "we can only speculate" nonsense. The Karakax list definitively shows that the people who have been interned in camps have been so for extremely horrendous crimes, such as: wearing a hijab, traveling, and applying for a passport! Also, the idea that even the majority of the ~1 million people interned are terrorists is completely ludicrous.

(...) Unlike the US’ war on terror, China’s counterterrorism campaign seems to have worked. There have been no reports of terror attacks since 2017.

The ends do not justify the means, and I'm willing to bet this will eventually blow up in China's face.

(...) In the space of 40 years, the Uygur population in Xinjiang grew from 5.5 million to more than 12 million. Between 2010 and 2018, the Uygur population increased by 25 per cent, compared with 2 per cent for the Han population. It is well known that China implemented a one-child policy between 1979 and 2015. What is not well understood is that non-Han ethnic groups such as the Uygurs were exempt from the birth control policy, and couples in rural areas were allowed to have up to three children. China’s birth control policies discriminate in favour of, not against, non-Han ethnic groups including the Uygurs. "

And this proves what?

[The Sovereign Realist State]

No, none of this "we can only speculate" nonsense. The Karakax list definitively shows that the people who have been interned in camps have been so for extremely horrendous crimes, such as: wearing a hijab, traveling, and applying for a passport! Also, the idea that even the majority of the ~1 million people interned are terrorists is completely ludicrous.

The ends do not justify the means, and I'm willing to bet this will eventually blow up in China's face.

And this proves what?

Good points.

Most importantly, I think he is arguing that the camps are not genocide.

As for the the vast numbers of people in them, I believe Beijing is basically trying to solve the terrorist problem with indoctrination. No one said that 1 million people are terrorists but rather that those considered vulnerable to sedition are given a strong opposing narrative.

We may object to it but calling it a genocide is, I think, going too far.

[Ifreann]

No, this means that you're wrong.

Because of the highly restrictive ideas concerning private property and other things, communism is impossible because a stateless society cannot enforce such restrictions. Thereby, communism in its expressed “true” form is a contradiction. You cannot have a draconian societal order without an oppressive ruling body to enforce it. The process that Marx outlined that would supposedly lead to a communist society would never work because all attempts at doing so resulted in fascism.

So no, I am not wrong.

Communism doesn't have highly restrictive ideas concerning private property. It just doesn't have any private property. And since private property requires violent enforcement, not having it would not require violent enforcement.

[The Free Joy State]

No, none of this "we can only speculate" nonsense. The Karakax list definitively shows that the people who have been interned in camps have been so for extremely horrendous crimes, such as: wearing a hijab, traveling, and applying for a passport! Also, the idea that even the majority of the ~1 million people interned are terrorists is completely ludicrous.

The ends do not justify the means, and I'm willing to bet this will eventually blow up in China's face.

And this proves what?

Good points.

Most importantly, I think he is arguing that the camps are not genocide.

As for the the vast numbers of people in them, I believe Beijing is basically trying to solve the terrorist problem with indoctrination. No one said that 1 million people are terrorists but rather that those considered vulnerable to sedition are given a strong opposing narrative.

We may object to it but calling it a genocide is, I think, going too far.

Perhaps, then, you need a pointer in what genocide entails:

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

1. Killing members of the group;
2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Elements of the crime
The Genocide Convention establishes in Article I that the crime of genocide may take place in the context of an armed conflict, international or non-international, but also in the context of a peaceful situation. The latter is less common but still possible. The same article establishes the obligation of the contracting parties to prevent and to punish the crime of genocide.

The popular understanding of what constitutes genocide tends to be broader than the content of the norm under international law. Article II of the Genocide Convention contains a narrow definition of the crime of genocide, which includes two main elements:

1. A mental element: the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such"; and
2. A physical element, which includes the following five acts, enumerated exhaustively:
   
   • Killing members of the group
   • Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group¹
   • Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
   • Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group²
   • Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group³

1. Their treatment in the detention camps amounts to this. And for what "crimes"? Wearing a headscarf, growing an "abnormally long beard", avoiding alcohol...
2. They're doing that, which you basically admit, when you talk of how their population growth was larger than than of the Han population, which seems to be a fault with bringing in a one-child policy (especially as, due to low population growth, other areas relaxed that policy to encourage more Chinese children -- so why target the Uyghur, unless their growth is "undesirable")
3. They're doing that, taking Uyghur children to state-run "child welfare" institutions, where all learning is in Chinese (meaning their own language is removed), and they are taught propagandistic songs.

[Picairn]

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/chin ... esearcher/

read this and see if you can say that again.

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-m ... esearcher/

Here is evidence that most of these claims are lies or are simply incorrect. There is no evidence for forced sterilization or ‘cultural genocide’, and the allegations of mass rape or experimentation are not very credible.

Ah, the Ol' Reliable of tankies: The Greyzone Project, despite the fact that it once fabricated quotes, used deceptively edited videos to push an agenda, even going as far as accusing the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) party of being funded by the US State Department to push for regime change.

While the first study by the CHRD is mostly extrapolating, they have been confirmed by other sources such as satellite images and official documents. The attack on Zenz of being "a far-right Christian led by God to destroy China" is purely an ad hominem to discredit him without actually addressing his arguments. If tankies believe that personal views can discredit someone's arguments then why haven't they disowned Marx for his anti-semitic essay?

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.

Birth rates

First and foremost, it's important to understand that Uyghur-majority areas have seen much larger drops than Han-majority areas of Xinjiang. Examining official government publications, we can see that Hotan Prefecture, which is roughly 96% Uyghur, plummeted from a birthrate of 20.94‰ in 2016 to 8.58‰ in 2018, resulting in a natural growth rate of 2.96‰. Similarly, the birthrate in Kashgar, which is 92.6% Uyghur, dropped from 18.19‰ in 2016 to 7.94‰ in 2018. (Compare with official concern over birthrates in the overwhelmingly Han northeast.) This means that the birthrate decline among Uyghurs is even higher than the province-wide birthrate decline.

Zenz provides further evidence to suggest the birth control policy is applied or enforced more strictly in Uyghur-majority areas. For example, Gulbagh District of Hotan City, one of the few majority-Han (54%) areas in the prefecture, saw a growth rate of 15.17‰ and birth rate of 16.35‰ in 2019. The district government explicitly stated that the district's family planning/birth control policy compliance rate was 100% that year. Among the 22,469 Han residents, there were 388 births—a birthrate of 17.3‰, over double that of Uyghurs.

Red is Xinjiang, black is China's average, and blue is every other province in terms of birth rates.

Isn't that a touch suspicious?

80% of all IUDs

Zenz states that in 2018 "80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation's population." This is (functionally) untrue. There were 7,551,436 IUDs new IUDs placed in China in 2019 and 6,948,934 removed. Xinjiang had 328,475 new IUDs place and 89018, a net of 239,457. Xinjiang's new IUDs only represent about 4.3% of all IUDs added in China. This is still relatively high (Xinjiang is less than 2% of China’s population) but definitely not 80% high.

Xinjiang had 239,457 net IUDs placed in 2018; China, on the whole, had 301,651. It is true that Xinjiang's net IUDs are about 80% of the nation's net IUD figure, but this is because there were provinces and regions with negative net IUDs. Guizhou had 109,021 added, or about 36% of the net. See the issue? Xinjiang and Guizhou alone already exceed 100% of China's net IUDs. That's because you can't compare bare net numbers, as the net has no relation to the magnitude of insertions or removals per province.

(Imagine businesses in a shopping center have a total net profit of $100. Businesses A, B, and C all had net profits of $50; Business D lost $50. While it is literally true that Businesses A, B, and C each earned 50% of the center’s $100—$50 is half of $100—that does not mean they contributed 50% to the net profit.)

Still, a strong argument can be made looking at net IUDs per 100,000 in 2018, as is charted below (spreadsheet here):

China as a whole averaged a net of +21.6 IUDs per 100,000 people; in Xinjiang, it was +963, over three times greater than the runner-up province, Guizhou, at +303. As detailed in subsection 4 below, Guizhou had a higher birthrate than Xinjiang as of the 2010 census.

The 80% claim is based on shaky math and unclear wording. Nevertheless, it is still true that Xinjiang's IUD insertion rates are significantly greater than China as a whole.

Qiu 2017: Early Chinese research on mass internment

Bonus prize: We have a study from Qiu Yuanyuan, a researcher at the Xinjiang Party School, an official tertiary educational institution operated by the Xinjiang Communist Party published in June 2017, called "Closely Center upon the Main Goal—Do the Job of 'De-extremification' Transformation through Education Well" (紧紧围绕总目标 做好“去极端化”教育转化工作)—on the nascent mass detention campaign in the journal New Silk Road. Like many sources that unintentionally expose holes in the government's narrative, this source has been deleted. You can see the title in the table of contents displayed on the New Silk Road's website here, though it does not offer a view of the contents and copies of the actual paper. Even the link to the article's abstract, provided by the New York Times in its September 2018 report, has been deleted, but is archived here.

Qiu's position as a Party cadre attached to a major Party school enabled her to conduct surveys of those detained in the early stages of the camps. Here are the most important parts:

* Qiu survey results suggest that two-thirds of the people detained were unable to articulate why they were being detained in the first place. Indeed, Qiu notes that people can be rounded up for completely unrelated issues, evidently including pissing off local CCP cadres in your village. Recall that definitions of extremism in the 2017 Xinjiang De-extremification regulations were quite broad.

* Qiu notes that the terms (Concentrated) Transformation through Education Centers, Legal Education Schools, and Rehabilitation and Correction Centers are all used by various authorities to describe the same thing(what I generally refer to as reeducation camps or just camps; the government, after admitting to their existence in 2018, has since referred to them as vocational training centers/schools).

* These facilities are often highly securitized, adopting a medical rhetoric of infection prevention and including deployment of police, protective equipment, and surveillance systems. As later posts show, many of the camps are indeed functionally equivalent to prisons in terms of their staffing, equipment, and expressed desire to prevent escapes.

* Detainees are not completely out of the woods once released. They are subject to "monitoring and control" after detention and possibly face re-detention if progress is not deemed sufficient.

Full study and a partial translation can be accessed here.

This is merely a part of the overall evidence. We also have satellite photos, over 10,000 victim testimonies, leaked official documents from the New York Times and the ICIJ, etc. Even if you don't like Zenz, there are still other scholars working on Xinjiang such as Darren Byler and Timothy Grose.

[Dowaesk]

https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/chin ... esearcher/

read this and see if you can say that again.

https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/us-m ... esearcher/

Here is evidence that most of these claims are lies or are simply incorrect. There is no evidence for forced sterilization or ‘cultural genocide’, and the allegations of mass rape or experimentation are not very credible.

Ah, the Ol' Reliable of tankies: The Greyzone Project, despite the fact that it once fabricated quotes, used deceptively edited videos to push an agenda, even going as far as accusing the Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) party of being funded by the US State Department to push for regime change.

While the first study by the CHRD is mostly extrapolating, they have been confirmed by other sources such as satellite images and official documents. The attack on Zenz of being "a far-right Christian led by God to destroy China" is purely an ad hominem to discredit him without actually addressing his arguments. If tankies believe that personal views can discredit someone's arguments then why haven't they disowned Marx for his anti-semitic essay?

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering. What is his worldly God? Money.…. Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist. Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities…. The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew. His god is only an illusory bill of exchange…. The chimerical nationality of the Jew is the nationality of the merchant, of the man of money in general.

Birth rates

First and foremost, it's important to understand that Uyghur-majority areas have seen much larger drops than Han-majority areas of Xinjiang. Examining official government publications, we can see that Hotan Prefecture, which is roughly 96% Uyghur, plummeted from a birthrate of 20.94‰ in 2016 to 8.58‰ in 2018, resulting in a natural growth rate of 2.96‰. Similarly, the birthrate in Kashgar, which is 92.6% Uyghur, dropped from 18.19‰ in 2016 to 7.94‰ in 2018. (Compare with official concern over birthrates in the overwhelmingly Han northeast.) This means that the birthrate decline among Uyghurs is even higher than the province-wide birthrate decline.

Zenz provides further evidence to suggest the birth control policy is applied or enforced more strictly in Uyghur-majority areas. For example, Gulbagh District of Hotan City, one of the few majority-Han (54%) areas in the prefecture, saw a growth rate of 15.17‰ and birth rate of 16.35‰ in 2019. The district government explicitly stated that the district's family planning/birth control policy compliance rate was 100% that year. Among the 22,469 Han residents, there were 388 births—a birthrate of 17.3‰, over double that of Uyghurs.

Red is Xinjiang, black is China's average, and blue is every other province in terms of birth rates.

Isn't that a touch suspicious?

80% of all IUDs

Zenz states that in 2018 "80 percent of all new IUD placements in China were performed in Xinjiang, despite the fact that the region only makes up 1.8 percent of the nation's population." This is (functionally) untrue. There were 7,551,436 IUDs new IUDs placed in China in 2019 and 6,948,934 removed. Xinjiang had 328,475 new IUDs place and 89018, a net of 239,457. Xinjiang's new IUDs only represent about 4.3% of all IUDs added in China. This is still relatively high (Xinjiang is less than 2% of China’s population) but definitely not 80% high.

Xinjiang had 239,457 net IUDs placed in 2018; China, on the whole, had 301,651. It is true that Xinjiang's net IUDs are about 80% of the nation's net IUD figure, but this is because there were provinces and regions with negative net IUDs. Guizhou had 109,021 added, or about 36% of the net. See the issue? Xinjiang and Guizhou alone already exceed 100% of China's net IUDs. That's because you can't compare bare net numbers, as the net has no relation to the magnitude of insertions or removals per province.

(Imagine businesses in a shopping center have a total net profit of $100. Businesses A, B, and C all had net profits of $50; Business D lost $50. While it is literally true that Businesses A, B, and C each earned 50% of the center’s $100—$50 is half of $100—that does not mean they contributed 50% to the net profit.)

Still, a strong argument can be made looking at net IUDs per 100,000 in 2018, as is charted below (spreadsheet here):

China as a whole averaged a net of +21.6 IUDs per 100,000 people; in Xinjiang, it was +963, over three times greater than the runner-up province, Guizhou, at +303. As detailed in subsection 4 below, Guizhou had a higher birthrate than Xinjiang as of the 2010 census.

The 80% claim is based on shaky math and unclear wording. Nevertheless, it is still true that Xinjiang's IUD insertion rates are significantly greater than China as a whole.

Qiu 2017: Early Chinese research on mass internment

Bonus prize: We have a study from Qiu Yuanyuan, a researcher at the Xinjiang Party School, an official tertiary educational institution operated by the Xinjiang Communist Party published in June 2017, called "Closely Center upon the Main Goal—Do the Job of 'De-extremification' Transformation through Education Well" (紧紧围绕总目标 做好“去极端化”教育转化工作)—on the nascent mass detention campaign in the journal New Silk Road. Like many sources that unintentionally expose holes in the government's narrative, this source has been deleted. You can see the title in the table of contents displayed on the New Silk Road's website here, though it does not offer a view of the contents and copies of the actual paper. Even the link to the article's abstract, provided by the New York Times in its September 2018 report, has been deleted, but is archived here.

Qiu's position as a Party cadre attached to a major Party school enabled her to conduct surveys of those detained in the early stages of the camps. Here are the most important parts:

* Qiu survey results suggest that two-thirds of the people detained were unable to articulate why they were being detained in the first place. Indeed, Qiu notes that people can be rounded up for completely unrelated issues, evidently including pissing off local CCP cadres in your village. Recall that definitions of extremism in the 2017 Xinjiang De-extremification regulations were quite broad.

* Qiu notes that the terms (Concentrated) Transformation through Education Centers, Legal Education Schools, and Rehabilitation and Correction Centers are all used by various authorities to describe the same thing(what I generally refer to as reeducation camps or just camps; the government, after admitting to their existence in 2018, has since referred to them as vocational training centers/schools).

* These facilities are often highly securitized, adopting a medical rhetoric of infection prevention and including deployment of police, protective equipment, and surveillance systems. As later posts show, many of the camps are indeed functionally equivalent to prisons in terms of their staffing, equipment, and expressed desire to prevent escapes.

* Detainees are not completely out of the woods once released. They are subject to "monitoring and control" after detention and possibly face re-detention if progress is not deemed sufficient.

Full study and a partial translation can be accessed here.

This is merely a part of the overall evidence. We also have satellite photos, over 10,000 victim testimonies, leaked official documents from the New York Times and the ICIJ, etc. Even if you don't like Zenz, there are still other scholars working on Xinjiang such as Darren Byler and Timothy Grose.

Good argument
How would you think this would go on in the future? Will anyone intervene?
(This is your personal view btw)

[Dowaesk]

No, none of this "we can only speculate" nonsense. The Karakax list definitively shows that the people who have been interned in camps have been so for extremely horrendous crimes, such as: wearing a hijab, traveling, and applying for a passport! Also, the idea that even the majority of the ~1 million people interned are terrorists is completely ludicrous.

The ends do not justify the means, and I'm willing to bet this will eventually blow up in China's face.

And this proves what?

Good points.

Most importantly, I think he is arguing that the camps are not genocide.

As for the the vast numbers of people in them, I believe Beijing is basically trying to solve the terrorist problem with indoctrination. No one said that 1 million people are terrorists but rather that those considered vulnerable to sedition are given a strong opposing narrative.

We may object to it but calling it a genocide is, I think, going too far.

Detaining over a million people over suspected terrorism is very extreme. In my opinion, calling it genocide is very fair.
If China wants to prove the rest if the world that Uyghurs are not suffering, then why dont they show us good enough evidence, instead of just denying.

[Mercatus]

Because of the highly restrictive ideas concerning private property and other things, communism is impossible because a stateless society cannot enforce such restrictions. Thereby, communism in its expressed “true” form is a contradiction. You cannot have a draconian societal order without an oppressive ruling body to enforce it. The process that Marx outlined that would supposedly lead to a communist society would never work because all attempts at doing so resulted in fascism.

So no, I am not wrong.

Communism doesn't have highly restrictive ideas concerning private property. It just doesn't have any private property. And since private property requires violent enforcement, not having it would not require violent enforcement.

In a stateless society, what stops me from going, “Hey, this is my property now.” *bang*

In communism, there is nothing to enforce a lack of private property, as you essentially admitted in your statement about violent enforcement. Without a government, private property would be the only thing keeping some form of order.

[Ifreann]

Communism doesn't have highly restrictive ideas concerning private property. It just doesn't have any private property. And since private property requires violent enforcement, not having it would not require violent enforcement.

In a stateless society, what stops me from going, “Hey, this is my property now.” *bang*

In a stateless society, why would anyone care that you claim to own things? What are you going to do if they ignore you, call the police?

In communism, there is nothing to enforce a lack of private property, as you essentially admitted in your statement about violent enforcement. Without a government, private property would be the only thing keeping some form of order.

How would private property exist without a state?

[Nakena]

In a stateless society, why would anyone care that you claim to own things? What are you going to do if they ignore you, call the police?

If he has a gun he can just shoot at them. No need for police

How would private property exist without a state?

By some dude with a big club or gun claiming a rock and saying that it is his and everyone who comes across and doesnt respects that is going to get shit.

Whether or not this works out depends if the dude (and his fellows) are more in number of guns or manpower.

Welcome to the real world.