It’s really not that expensive.
And Kilo public transportation in the US is rarely reliable or clean or safe or fast. And 90% of our trains are gas powered so they pollute just as much.
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by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:02 pm
by Kilobugya » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:03 pm
Thermodolia wrote:And Kilo public transportation in the US is rarely reliable or clean or safe or fast. And 90% of our trains are gas powered so they pollute just as much.
by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:05 pm
Ethel mermania wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
But most people don't travel much at those times.
Not here, at least not for urban-level transport. Unlimited transport for all of Paris region (so about 12 000 square kilometers) is 80€/month, your employer has to pay half if you use it to go to work and the gov pays half for students or children (and it's free for kids younger than 4, soon to be 10), so even a family of 4 would mean paying 160€/month for unlimited public transports. There is just no way you pay for the car itself + the insurance + the upkeep + the gas for that price.
It's slightly more true for long distance travel, especially if you compare with TGV, but TGV is 300 km/h, so it's really another world in term of speed and comfort (you've tables, electrical plugs, wifi, restaurant service, ...).
On that I agree, few times I use a taxi (something heavy to carry or going back home late at night) I use a "regular" one, not Uber.
I am in nyc, we never sleep, (during normal times anyway).
If I take the family to the beach, its 3 trains and two fares. A little less than 3 hours each way, not worth going too. To drive, except during rush hour, 50 minutes, we'll worth a Beach day.
Trains are not as well subsidized here, if I were to take amtrack to Boston for 4, would be close to 700 dollars round trip. To drive its a tank and a half of gas 40 dollars, about 20 dollars in tolls, and wear and tear on the car. Much cheaper to drive with the family.
by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:08 pm
by Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:17 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:I am in nyc, we never sleep, (during normal times anyway).
If I take the family to the beach, its 3 trains and two fares. A little less than 3 hours each way, not worth going too. To drive, except during rush hour, 50 minutes, we'll worth a Beach day.
Trains are not as well subsidized here, if I were to take amtrack to Boston for 4, would be close to 700 dollars round trip. To drive its a tank and a half of gas 40 dollars, about 20 dollars in tolls, and wear and tear on the car. Much cheaper to drive with the family.
Shit. It costs just about that to go from Atlanta to NYC one way
by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:19 pm
Ethel mermania wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Shit. It costs just about that to go from Atlanta to NYC one way
Amtrak is weird, the only place they really make money is the Richmond to Boston corridor. Its mostly business travel So they charge for that. Tbf the only places I have taken amtrak is ny to Boston, or NY to baltimore or DC.
by Ethel mermania » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:22 pm
Thermodolia wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:Amtrak is weird, the only place they really make money is the Richmond to Boston corridor. Its mostly business travel So they charge for that. Tbf the only places I have taken amtrak is ny to Boston, or NY to baltimore or DC.
I’m taking Amtrak this fall to a wedding. Should be nice as I booked it back when prices where inexpensive.
by San Lumen » Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:27 pm
Ethel mermania wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Shit. It costs just about that to go from Atlanta to NYC one way
Amtrak is weird, the only place they really make money is the Richmond to Boston corridor. Its mostly business travel So they charge for that. Tbf the only places I have taken amtrak is ny to Boston, or NY to baltimore or DC.
by Claorica » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:16 pm
Kilobugya wrote:Bienenhalde wrote:What if you could buy a non-polluting electric car?
Even an electric car is very polluting. Batteries are polluting and energy-intensives to produce, they tend to be heavier and therefore generate more secondary pollution such as microparticles from the tires, and depending how the electricity is made it can also be polluting to recharge. It's a bit better than internal combustion engine, but nowhere near the ecological efficiency of trains, metros or tramways.
by Thermodolia » Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:40 pm
Claorica wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Even an electric car is very polluting. Batteries are polluting and energy-intensives to produce, they tend to be heavier and therefore generate more secondary pollution such as microparticles from the tires, and depending how the electricity is made it can also be polluting to recharge. It's a bit better than internal combustion engine, but nowhere near the ecological efficiency of trains, metros or tramways.
Trains at best use the exact same electricity that you would use to recharge your electric car with, and outside of Europe, China, and Japan, almost entirely are either diesel or diesel-electric (Diesel-Electric is the standard in the US)
by Luziyca » Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:09 pm
by Kilobugya » Wed Mar 10, 2021 11:56 pm
Claorica wrote:Trains at best use the exact same electricity that you would use to recharge your electric car with
by A-Series-Of-Tubes » Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:26 am
Kilobugya wrote:Claorica wrote:Trains at best use the exact same electricity that you would use to recharge your electric car with
Not the '"exact same", much less of it. First because there is a significant loss in charging/decharging a battery compared to directly use it from the power line. Then because you need much less energy per passenger in public transports (the same reason that even gas-powered bus pollute much less than the equivalent in cars). And then because metal-to-metal of wheel-on-rails has much less friction and energy loss than tires-on-asphalt of cars.
And you don't need to actually produce the very polluting batteries.
by Washington Resistance Army » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:17 am
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Not the '"exact same", much less of it. First because there is a significant loss in charging/decharging a battery compared to directly use it from the power line. Then because you need much less energy per passenger in public transports (the same reason that even gas-powered bus pollute much less than the equivalent in cars). And then because metal-to-metal of wheel-on-rails has much less friction and energy loss than tires-on-asphalt of cars.
And you don't need to actually produce the very polluting batteries.
I'm basically on the same page, but I have to add that the energy efficiency of public transport ranges from excellent to really awful, depending on how many passengers are onboard. You'd think that mini-busses and single-carriage trains (for frequent-enough services at quiet times) would solve the problem, but the moment you do that a bunch of pensioners will hold a funeral at 11 am (for example) and complain that only half of them will fit in the minibus ...
This is one of the things which will get much better when trains and busses (and taxis!) become fully autonomous. The pensioners could signal their intention to use public transport and the big bus will drive the route instead of the minibus. Or if they can't manage that, the first minibus could send a signal back to base that there are passengers still waiting, and right away another minibus would head out. Two minibusses won't cost any more than one big bus to operate, since an extra driver is not needed, and the delay of calling another driver on-shift just for one trip, would not apply.
Autonomous vehicles will be revolutionary, for many reasons, but particularly by providing transport from anywhere on the road network to anywhere else, without the need to park at either end, with the security, biosecurity and privacy (no-windows privacy if people want that) of traditional cars. Like taxis, but at public transport prices. I hope I live to see it!
by Northern Socialist Council Republics » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:27 am
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I'm not sure I'd say autonomous vehicles provides the safety of traditional cars tbh. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure either the NSA or the CIA had a file leak and included among it was stuff to hijack computerized vehicles remotely, and given the way cybersecurity as a whole works I don't have much faith in the concept.
by Washington Resistance Army » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:28 am
Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:Washington Resistance Army wrote:I'm not sure I'd say autonomous vehicles provides the safety of traditional cars tbh. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure either the NSA or the CIA had a file leak and included among it was stuff to hijack computerized vehicles remotely, and given the way cybersecurity as a whole works I don't have much faith in the concept.
That’s already possible with human-driven cars. Most cars produced in the past couple of decades have electronic systems in a lot of critical places.
by Kilobugya » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:29 am
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:I'm basically on the same page, but I have to add that the energy efficiency of public transport ranges from excellent to really awful, depending on how many passengers are onboard. You'd think that mini-busses and single-carriage trains (for frequent-enough services at quiet times) would solve the problem, but the moment you do that a bunch of pensioners will hold a funeral at 11 am (for example) and complain that only half of them will fit in the minibus ...
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:This is one of the things which will get much better when trains and busses (and taxis!) become fully autonomous. The pensioners could signal their intention to use public transport and the big bus will drive the route instead of the minibus.
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Autonomous vehicles will be revolutionary, for many reasons, but particularly by providing transport from anywhere on the road network to anywhere else, without the need to park at either end, with the security, biosecurity and privacy (no-windows privacy if people want that) of traditional cars. Like taxis, but at public transport prices. I hope I live to see it!
by Kilobugya » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:33 am
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I'm not sure I'd say autonomous vehicles provides the safety of traditional cars tbh.
Washington Resistance Army wrote:I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure either the NSA or the CIA had a file leak and included among it was stuff to hijack computerized vehicles remotely, and given the way cybersecurity as a whole works I don't have much faith in the concept.
by A-Series-Of-Tubes » Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:37 am
Washington Resistance Army wrote:A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:
I'm basically on the same page, but I have to add that the energy efficiency of public transport ranges from excellent to really awful, depending on how many passengers are onboard. You'd think that mini-busses and single-carriage trains (for frequent-enough services at quiet times) would solve the problem, but the moment you do that a bunch of pensioners will hold a funeral at 11 am (for example) and complain that only half of them will fit in the minibus ...
This is one of the things which will get much better when trains and busses (and taxis!) become fully autonomous. The pensioners could signal their intention to use public transport and the big bus will drive the route instead of the minibus. Or if they can't manage that, the first minibus could send a signal back to base that there are passengers still waiting, and right away another minibus would head out. Two minibusses won't cost any more than one big bus to operate, since an extra driver is not needed, and the delay of calling another driver on-shift just for one trip, would not apply.
Autonomous vehicles will be revolutionary, for many reasons, but particularly by providing transport from anywhere on the road network to anywhere else, without the need to park at either end, with the security, biosecurity and privacy (no-windows privacy if people want that) of traditional cars. Like taxis, but at public transport prices. I hope I live to see it!
I'm not sure I'd say autonomous vehicles provides the safety of traditional cars tbh. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure either the NSA or the CIA had a file leak and included among it was stuff to hijack computerized vehicles remotely, and given the way cybersecurity as a whole works I don't have much faith in the concept.
by Ethel mermania » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:52 am
Claorica wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Even an electric car is very polluting. Batteries are polluting and energy-intensives to produce, they tend to be heavier and therefore generate more secondary pollution such as microparticles from the tires, and depending how the electricity is made it can also be polluting to recharge. It's a bit better than internal combustion engine, but nowhere near the ecological efficiency of trains, metros or tramways.
Trains at best use the exact same electricity that you would use to recharge your electric car with, and outside of Europe, China, and Japan, almost entirely are either diesel or diesel-electric (Diesel-Electric is the standard in the US)
by Ethel mermania » Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:55 am
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Kilobugya wrote:
Not the '"exact same", much less of it. First because there is a significant loss in charging/decharging a battery compared to directly use it from the power line. Then because you need much less energy per passenger in public transports (the same reason that even gas-powered bus pollute much less than the equivalent in cars). And then because metal-to-metal of wheel-on-rails has much less friction and energy loss than tires-on-asphalt of cars.
And you don't need to actually produce the very polluting batteries.
I'm basically on the same page, but I have to add that the energy efficiency of public transport ranges from excellent to really awful, depending on how many passengers are onboard. You'd think that mini-busses and single-carriage trains (for frequent-enough services at quiet times) would solve the problem, but the moment you do that a bunch of pensioners will hold a funeral at 11 am (for example) and complain that only half of them will fit in the minibus ...
This is one of the things which will get much better when trains and busses (and taxis!) become fully autonomous. The pensioners could signal their intention to use public transport and the big bus will drive the route instead of the minibus. Or if they can't manage that, the first minibus could send a signal back to base that there are passengers still waiting, and right away another minibus would head out. Two minibusses won't cost any more than one big bus to operate, since an extra driver is not needed, and the delay of calling another driver on-shift just for one trip, would not apply.
Autonomous vehicles will be revolutionary, for many reasons, but particularly by providing transport from anywhere on the road network to anywhere else, without the need to park at either end, with the security, biosecurity and privacy (no-windows privacy if people want that) of traditional cars. Like taxis, but at public transport prices. I hope I live to see it!
by A-Series-Of-Tubes » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:22 am
Ethel mermania wrote:A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:
I'm basically on the same page, but I have to add that the energy efficiency of public transport ranges from excellent to really awful, depending on how many passengers are onboard. You'd think that mini-busses and single-carriage trains (for frequent-enough services at quiet times) would solve the problem, but the moment you do that a bunch of pensioners will hold a funeral at 11 am (for example) and complain that only half of them will fit in the minibus ...
This is one of the things which will get much better when trains and busses (and taxis!) become fully autonomous. The pensioners could signal their intention to use public transport and the big bus will drive the route instead of the minibus. Or if they can't manage that, the first minibus could send a signal back to base that there are passengers still waiting, and right away another minibus would head out. Two minibusses won't cost any more than one big bus to operate, since an extra driver is not needed, and the delay of calling another driver on-shift just for one trip, would not apply.
Autonomous vehicles will be revolutionary, for many reasons, but particularly by providing transport from anywhere on the road network to anywhere else, without the need to park at either end, with the security, biosecurity and privacy (no-windows privacy if people want that) of traditional cars. Like taxis, but at public transport prices. I hope I live to see it!
You would call a cab for what you describe, no public transport system can be "on demand ". We do run some autonomous trains now, but that is a lot easier to do on a defined track than a city street.
by Ethel mermania » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:46 am
A-Series-Of-Tubes wrote:Ethel mermania wrote:You would call a cab for what you describe, no public transport system can be "on demand ". We do run some autonomous trains now, but that is a lot easier to do on a defined track than a city street.
I presume a cab is expensive anywhere, with insurance and the driver's time considered. Take the cab driver out of the equation, and driverless cabs will become a fallback for everywhere a bus, train or ferry doesn't run. They should even be affordable for commuters, but we have to consider that with children, the elderly, the disabled AND a lot of unaccompanied freight, there won't be enough road and mass transit has to be kept in the mix.
by San Lumen » Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:51 am
Luziyca wrote:Kernen wrote:Eh. Get a car.
I am a nervous wreck behind the wheel. The only time I actually completed a drive in person for driver's ed (as opposed to having it be aborted), I was basically exhausted and in a bit of a fog.
While I'd love to live in Jasper, cities do provide a fuckton of services in a reasonable walkable or bus-able distance.
by Kernen » Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:06 am
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