[DEFEATED] Condemn Lily

[Tinhampton]

(Image)

Honorary Delegates,

I would like to humbly request for your support my Security Council Proposal To Condemn Lily.

For years, Lily has been raiding regions just for popularity and recruitment. I'm sure you know someone or have been a victim of the condemnable actions. I know that I have. It’s time that we took a stand to stop these vicious crimes. To condemn all of the distress Lily has caused!

Never before has the Security Council taken actions to Condemn Lily. However, that can change. All you have to do is approve of my proposal. (https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_view_proposal/id=aredita_1613600684) I need 6% of all WA Delegates to approve this if we want it to go to vote.

If you have any questions, please telegram me. I'll do my best to answer them. Or you can ask on my discussion thread.

Thank you for your time, and consideration,
The Constitutional Monarchy Of Aredita

Aredita's pretitle as of time of writing is actually "Holy Blue Monarchy," for Easter Egg collection purposes.

[Fahran]

Any resolution targeting Lily has to go beyond than just mere tag-raiding. Here are a couple of things I have questions on:

I object a bit to the characterization of tag-raiding as unimportant and unobtrusive, especially when some of the regions tagged effectively remain extant and tagged for weeks or months - unless Lily or ASS does detag runs. It can have a pronounced effect on regions, especially new regions. In any case, taking down several hundred regions in a single raid is still very naughty behavior. Taking down more prominent regions with uninterrupted delegacies is even more naughty.

But, moving beyond that, I feel like one can point to a number of more permanent raids as well. In a previous condemnation, I actually compiled a list of regions that effectively ceased to exist because Sweeze or a certain sneaky raider who will not be named managed to oust delegates and ban natives before anyone raised a finger to expel the raiders. It might be a good idea to include some of those G/P activities in the condemnation, but the SC does have a tendency to overlook those sorts of vile deeds of late unless they involves a feeder, a large region, or a region with a flashy name.

2. How can a region both have "the sole intention of becoming an invader region" and detag regions in its first ever military operation?

This may well be a more legitimate criticism unless Lily has changed policy to become more exclusively raiding-oriented. I would have considered them more akin to raiders than defenders/detaggers before, but they always dabbled in both sides of gameplay.

[Outer Sparta]

Seconds ago: The Holy Blue Monarchy of Aredita submitted a proposal to the Security Council Condemnation Board entitled "Condemn Lily".
2 minutes ago: The Holy Blue Monarchy of Aredita withdrew a proposal from the WA Security Council titled "Condemn Lily".
2 minutes ago: The Holy Blue Monarchy of Aredita submitted a proposal to the Security Council Condemnation Board entitled "Condemn Lily".
4 minutes ago: The Holy Blue Monarchy of Aredita withdrew a proposal from the WA Security Council titled "Condemn Lily".

Yeah, a couple of last-minute spelling mistakes. All fixed now.

Call me nitpicky, but I found a few tiny grammar issues:

Just see what Lily can do;

Makes more sense to have it as a colon since you're listing the kinds of raids Lily has done.

iv. In 2020, LIly was able to seize the delegacy from NationStates, and end a streak of 5907 days.

There's an accidental capitalization of the I in Lily.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

I see this has made quorum. I will be recommending an “Against” vote to TWP’s Delegate.

While Lily may well be worthy of a Condemnation, this isn’t the one. It’s poorly written and badly researched. The author has taken very little time to prepare this and instead is hoping for a swell of support, due to the raid on the Embassy, to get them the writer’s badge they so obviously crave.

[Team Lennox]

I see this has made quorum. I will be recommending an “Against” vote to TWP’s Delegate.

While Lily may well be worthy of a Condemnation, this isn’t the one. It’s poorly written and badly researched. The author has taken very little time to prepare this and instead is hoping for a swell of support, due to the raid on the Embassy, to get them the writer’s badge they so obviously crave.

I support this proposal, they raided thousands of regions and coup'd the largests embassy collcter in the game.

[Fahran]

I support this proposal, they raided thousands of regions and coup'd the largests embassy collcter in the game.

But if they did it for the lulz is it really so bad?

[Refuge Isle]

Lily and TBH don't have a treaty - TBH doesn't do treaties, and as far as I know neither does Lily.

Nope. They do have a treaty.

viewtopic.php?p=37586608#p37586608

viewtopic.php?p=37790561#p37790561

I unironically enjoy the concept of this being argued to a TBH Council person.

There hasn't been much talk about the mechanical construction of this, just its political implications, so let's talk about that for a second instead.

In all honesty, I do appreciate that this is possibly the only somewhat credible Condemn Lily proposal that I have seen...possibly ever. As far as my political leanings go, this draft is extraordinarily numbers-oriented. And that makes sense because Lily is also incredibly numbers-oriented. The value of every individual raid and every individual tag is zero because the argument is that they can crank them out in enough bulk that it's supposed to inspire awe. I'm just not particularly inspired with awe. I'm not convinced that you can condemn a raider org primarily based on tags. But the main problem with numbers-based things, just like in cards resolutions, is that the numbers frame of reference does not hold up or make sense in the long run.

See here:

Noting that Lily was founded in 2017 by Beautiful Flower Bouquet with the sole intention of tagging and de-tagging. Within 1 week of being founded, Lily had 3 members and had raided and detagged nearly 60 regions.

Notwithstanding that I do not know what the first sentence has to do with the second. During one update within the first week of founding, Trieltics had 72 tags. Granted, 2018 was a different time and surely before many Lily tools existed, but it's not like it would have been difficult to manually trigger for 60 regions across an entire week. Within a week of founding, if you're trying to be a mainstream r/d force and you cannot attract two other human people through recruiting, idk what you're doing. So both components of the second sentence make no sense to me.

Lily is known to launch fast invasions, that require minimal effort. This makes them some of the most efficient and feared invaders in NationStates. Just see what Lily can do;

I would recommend finding some other way to write "Just see what Lily can do;". This should be a colon instead of a semicolon, and the writing tone should not be reminiscent of an infomercial.

i. In 2018
ii. In 2020

It would benefit your writing if you could at least attach months to these references.

iii. And just recently...

I would also advise you to use a date here as well. Although there's a timestamp on passed resolutions, the term "recently" on something that's going to be on the SC books permanently is very awkward to me.

and held over 50 nations;

Not according to my 10 seconds of research. The region never contained that many natives. The purpose of the region was so that some 3500 regions could use The Embassy's RMB like a chat. As that ability was the target of the raid, it's what's important for you to talk about.

On the whole:

... Lily invaded The Embassy, a region in which held 3519 embassies, was founded in 2015, and held over 50 nations; fell due to manipulation tactics carried out by Frenchy II, a high ranking officer in Lily, to receive the password. The moment Lily seized control, they polluted the World Factbook Entry with advertisements, dismissed officers, and closed every single embassy.

This is punctuation hell, and not really for any good justification. You're just describing the same process that Lily goes through during any other raid, including tags which you have already described as effortless. I recommend nuking this section and rewriting it from scratch.

iv. In 2020, LIly was able to seize the delegacy from NationStates, and end a streak of 5907 days.

The second comma is unnecessary.

v. Just a few days ago, Lily established nearly 70 new embassies in Plum Island, the region where it holds embassies of the regions they invaded. Think about what they could do in a year.

"A few days ago", even if submitted today, would be a week at vote. Please just use dates.

"Think about what they could do in a year" is not an appropriate argument for the Security Council, condemnations and commendations are based on things which have already happened, not speculation about what is to come. Just facts and citations, the truth supports itself.

If you want to make some kind of numbers argument with embassies, don't pick some random point where 70 were added. You already talked about how Stargazer had 576 hits. Tossing in 70 later on is relatively meaningless.

In recent events, Lily and The Black Hawks, another ruthless invader agreed to “...look towards a bright future between them and the interregional military.” This not only magnifies the ruthless behavior Lily already exhibits, but it also allies them with a region that has been condemned twice.

I don't personally believe that this is a viable political talking point. But if you must, you might think about a different form of framing that focuses on how long-standing animosity between the two raiding orgs has been buried, that they may combine their efforts for future destruction, etc etc

At one point, Lily had tagged nearly 40% of all taggable regions and at this point, holds over 1650 embassies in Plum Island.

If you are referencing how much of the world Lily had tagged at one point, why are you also supporting the argument with how many embassies they have now? How many simultaneous embassies was it during the alleged 40%?

The Security Council's motto is “Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.” This is one of those times where we must take action and use force against Lily to condemn them.

I recommend concluding on why Lily deserves a condemnation, not concluding on what the Security Council's job is regardless of Lily's merit.

The Security Council herby Condemns Lily.

It's already been brought up, but the correct spelling is "hereby". Herby is shortened version of Herbert, notably assigned to cars and hippie musicians born in the 40s.

[Refuge Isle]

Good lord, didn't actually see that this was submitted and in queue.

Against for my above reasons.

[Eumaeus]

As I was going to say before being so rudely interrupted by those database connection errors, while I’ve been away for a very long time and have nothing to offer in terms of factual criticism, I’ve always preferred the writing and rhetorical aspects of SC feedback anyways.

The Security Council,

Noting that Lily was founded in 2017 by Beautiful Flower Bouquet with the sole intention of tagging and de-tagging. Within 1 week of being founded, Lily had 3 members and had raided and detagged nearly 60 regions.

The last line of this clause would carry more affect if it was rephrased to "Within 1 week of being founded, Lily had raided and detagged nearly 60 regions despite only having 3 members at the time." Listing the qualifying variable after the action, especially in this context, increases the former's impact.

Additionally, there is a consistency error in your spelling of detagging/"de-tagging". Seeing as it's a made up word either spelling is fine, but you should use the same spelling throughout a text.

Lily is known to launch fast invasions, that require minimal effort. This makes them some of the most efficient and feared invaders in NationStates. Just see what Lily can do;

It should either be "invasions that" with no comma or "invasions, which" (I think the former is what you're going for): the addition of a comma makes "that require minimal effort" a restrictive clause and while it technically isn't a grammatical error it is generally agreed upon by grammarians that "which" sounds better than "that" in restrictive clauses.

While I have to acknowledge that it's an entirely subjective opinion, I'm really not a fan of "Just see what Lily can do". I would change it to something along the lines of "This makes them some of the most efficient and feared invaders in NationStates, with a long list of accomplishments" (the word "accomplishments" is interchangeable with any number of alternatives).

That semicolon should probably be a colon.

i. In 2018, Lily carried out "Operation Supernova” which successfully tagged 403 regions in a single update.

ii. In 2020, Lily initiated "The Stargazer” which tagged 576 regions, again, in a single update.

iii. And just recently, Lily invaded The Embassy, a region in which held 3519 embassies, was founded in 2015, and held over 50 nations; fell due to manipulation tactics carried out by Frenchy II, a high ranking officer in Lily, to receive the password. The moment Lily seized control, they polluted the World Factbook Entry with advertisements, dismissed officers, and closed every single embassy.

I'm not even sure how to fix this clause, but frankly it's a mess. The orange section doesn't flow well at all and that semicolon is being used incorrectly. I would recommend rewriting this clause from scratch.

Moreover, I'm somewhat confused by your choice of placement of your mention of The Embassy in the middle of a list rather than as the climax of the proposal: A) The events that you describe aren't in chronological order, which would draw criticism from me regardless; B) Not only was this an infiltration and occupation (generally considered to be the most condemnable type of raid) but this raid had the additional feature of razing what could be argued to be a cultural site. Literally thousands of embassies were closed, meaning that literally thousands of regions were affected, making this one of the most surface-level condemnable acts listed in this proposal; and C) This raid was the event that triggered the (public) drafting of this proposal, and is rhetorically your best argument for condemnation (due to the outrage still being fresh).

iv. In 2020, LIly was able to seize the delegacy of NationStates, and end a streak of 5907 days.

As Outer Sparta already commented, there is a typo ("LIly"). Additionally, there is a completely unnecessary comma separating the two clauses of this sentence. I would recommend replacing "NationStates, and end a streak of 5907 days" with "NationStates, ending the delegate's [maybe use the nation's name] 5907 day reign".

v. Just a few days ago, Lily established nearly 70 new embassies in Plum Island, the region where it holds embassies of the regions they invaded. Think about what they could do in a year.

This clause is going to become dated quickly and honestly isn't entirely necessary. I also dislike "Think about what they could do in a year", probably for the same reason that I dislike "Just see what Lily can do". These are rhetorical tactics that would work well in a debate thread or a campaign telegram, but feel out of place within the actual text of a condemnation. I think The Unified Missourtama States’s comment on the conversational tone of this proposal summarizes my unease.

In recent events, Lily and The Black Hawks, another ruthless invader agreed to “...look towards a bright future between them and the interregional military.” This not only magnifies the ruthless behavior Lily already exhibits, but it also allies them with a region that has been condemned twice.

Within the meta-language of the SC, describing the Black Hawks as 'an invader' can imply that they are a single player, which is why I generally advocate the use of 'invader' when describing nations and 'invader region' when describing a region. Additionally, you are missing a necessary comma. I would recommend "Lily and The Black Hawks, another ruthless invader region, agreed..." Lastly (in regards to writing), unless it is in the text of the quote you're citing you will almost never need to include ellipsis points at the beginning of a quotation.

I also feel like the argument being made in this clause is underdeveloped. How does this magnify the threat that Lily poses? Is the fact that TBH has been condemned twice responsible for this magnification or is it a separate matter?While I can fill in the blanks for myself it's still necessary to fully explain the cause and effects, the interconnections between events, and the connection to the overall argument.

At one point, Lily had tagged nearly 40% of all taggable regions and at this point, holds over 1650 embassies in Plum Island.

I think this clause should be placed prior to the previous clause. The clause about Lily's relationship with TBH not only describes past/present events but goes a step further in continuing to situate Lily as a future threat. This clause now firmly returns to the past/present. Rhetorically speaking, the next clause would be better complimented if you leave readers to linger on that future threat instead of on a simple observation.

Additionally, I also agree with Outer Sparta that “At one point” lacks specificity to a point that it ought to be changed.

The Security Council's motto is “Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary.” This is one of those times where we must take action and use force against Lily to condemn them.

At the very least it should be "This is one of those times when we must...", but I can do better:

Given the ruthless harm inflicted by Lily upon countless regions throughout NationStates and the continued threat that their activities pose to regions of all kinds, now is the time when this council must take action to uphold its oath of “Spreading interregional peace and goodwill, via force if necessary”.

Thus, the Security Council hereby condemns Lily.

Overall, while I feel that Lily has earned its condemnation, I agree with BBD’s assessment that, in its current state, this simply isn’t the proposal to do it with.

To echo other contributors, this draft isn't well-researched and mostly includes arguments and evidence that were presented to the author by contributors after the initial draft was posted. Even if I dislike the tone in which this proposal was written I cannot say that the writing is terrible, though the haste with which it was written and lack of thorough proofreading is apparent. Moreover the jerry-built structure of the proposal doesn’t appear to have had an adequate amount of thought put into it, with the miscellany of suggested changes being hastily added atop an initial scaffolding that was ill-suited for the additions regardless of the level of care taken.

I suspect the explanation for much of this criticism is linked to the author’s explicit request that other writers not attempt to tackle this issue while they are drafting, a request that while relatable is also futile, unless the SC community has drastically shifted its conventions since I’ve been gone. All of this leads me to the conclusion that the author is trying to force this draft through as quickly as possible out of fear that another author will beat them to the punch, an impulse that I know many other SC author’s have felt at one point or another.

While I think this is an inadequate draft I do not think that the author is an inadequate writer: my advice to them (and to all aspiring WA authors) is to take the time to do things thoroughly. Lily isn’t going anywhere, this is the only condemnation of Lily currently being drafted, and consensus appears to be that Lily does indeed deserve a condemnation. As long as the SC community feels that you’re cooperating with it and making an effort to adequately address its concerns no established authors will see a need to draft a competing proposal and drafts from unknowns will be shown less interest.

As written, I feel that even if this proposal passes it will remain susceptible to a future repeal and replace, whether that effort occurs after a week or after a year. It would be best for all parties if an effort is made in the present to continue drafting rather than allowing this proposal to go to vote, let alone passed.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Welcome back to the SC Eumaeus, good to see you again.

[Townsvalley]

Condemn Genua too

[Frenchy II]

Condemn Genua too

i know it's bad taste to post commentary in your condemn threads but

a. this condemn has many faults and is not getting any better as posted by the folks before me

b. don't ever compare me to fucking genua

thanks

[Lorrana]

To be completely honest, I don't support this proposal. Military regions like Lily and the Black Hawks wear these condemnations like medals of honor and condemning them just gives them more momentum and enthusiasm to continue raiding

[Townsvalley]

Condemn Genua too

i know it's bad taste to post commentary in your condemn threads but

a. this condemn has many faults and is not getting any better as posted by the folks before me

b. don't ever compare me to fucking genua

thanks

I didnot compare you to genua, Heck I'll never compare anyone to Genua.

[Outer Sparta]

To be completely honest, I don't support this proposal. Military regions like Lily and the Black Hawks wear these condemnations like medals of honor and condemning them just gives them more momentum and enthusiasm to continue raiding

I'm also opposed to this resolution but mainly cause it's not in the best shape to condemn Lily in any way. I would support a Lily condemnation if it were more well-written than this submission, which not only has a lot of filler but is riddled with a few grammar and punctuation errors that are slight eyesores.

Condemn Genua too

If you want to condemn them, please make a draft of your own instead of inserting your commentary into random proposals.

[Team Lennox]

I see this has made quorum. I will be recommending an “Against” vote to TWP’s Delegate.

While Lily may well be worthy of a Condemnation, this isn’t the one. It’s poorly written and badly researched. The author has taken very little time to prepare this and instead is hoping for a swell of support, due to the raid on the Embassy, to get them the writer’s badge they so obviously crave.

I support this proposal, they raided thousands of regions and coup'd the largests embassy collcter in the game.

Right I change my mind I gonna say no cuz raiders take condemns as badges of honor sooooooooooooooo

Condemn Genua too

Hell nah, a yo big tip for ya: People take condemns as badges of honor so it will just make em happy

[Jedinsto]

While I am opposed to griefing such as we have seen at the embassy, in completely destroying the region, I am not opposed to raiding itself. I will not support the WA showing favoritism to defenders. I would suggest focusing on their griefings, not just the fact that they are highly skilled raiders.

[The Python]

When this reaches quorum, support.

[Balkede]

How is detagging condemnable?

[Pluvie]

I am definitely against on this one, for many of the reasons Refuge Isle and Eumaeus wrote above (thank you both for writing good ). This proposal is raw, and not in a raw strengthy kind of way, in a this hasn’t been thought through or edited enough kind of way. I would support a Lily condemn, but this would need a lot more work to get there, starting with like... punctuation, grammar, dates, etc. I would recommend pulling this and doing a little more work on it tbh, but if the work was put in to make this resolution a little better, I could certainly be for. Have a great day all!

-Ara

[Outer Sparta]

I am definitely against on this one, for many of the reasons Refuge Isle and Eumaeus wrote above (thank you both for writing good ). This proposal is raw, and not in a raw strengthy kind of way, in a this hasn’t been thought through or edited enough kind of way. I would support a Lily condemn, but this would need a lot more work to get there, starting with like... punctuation, grammar, dates, etc. I would recommend pulling this and doing a little more work on it tbh, but if the work was put in to make this resolution a little better, I could certainly be for. Have a great day all!

-Ara

Yet many people will vote for this poorly-written resolution because of the title and not looking at the draft itself.

[Fahran]

Oh, I didn't see that this had been submitted. As a veteran of Lily, I'm going to have to oppose this. It's less well-written then my own dubious attempt at a condemnation and actually gets a number of the facts wrong, specifically regarding Operation Supernova and the exclusion of previous trophies taken. I do think Lily deserves a condemnation, largely as a badge of honor for making a worthwhile contribution to NSGP, but this feels inadequate.

[Fahran]

Yet many people will vote for this poorly-written resolution because of the title and not looking at the draft itself.

That's a bit doubtful given how anti-condemnation the SC was the last time a condemnation was brought before it. Really, the only thing that's changed is that the condemnation is not as badly written as previous iterations, that the author has no known ties to Lily, and that Lily managed to raid The Embassy. Heck, if we'd known that last one mattered so much, we could have knocked it off a couple years back and then raided Christmas.

[Outer Sparta]

Yet many people will vote for this poorly-written resolution because of the title and not looking at the draft itself.

That's a bit doubtful given how anti-condemnation the SC was the last time a condemnation was brought before it. Really, the only thing that's changed is that the condemnation is not as badly written as previous iterations, that the author has no known ties to Lily, and that Lily managed to raid The Embassy. Heck, if we'd known that last one mattered so much, we could have knocked it off a couple years back and then raided Christmas.

I just feel too many people will just read the title and join the Lily condemnation bandwagon due to recent events and not even reading the poorly-written draft. I definitely could be underestimating the general public, but my concerns stem from how a poorly-written resolution could easily pass if there's a large enough bandwagon.

Oh, I didn't see that this had been submitted. As a veteran of Lily, I'm going to have to oppose this. It's less well-written then my own dubious attempt at a condemnation and actually gets a number of the facts wrong, specifically regarding Operation Supernova and the exclusion of previous trophies taken. I do think Lily deserves a condemnation, largely as a badge of honor for making a worthwhile contribution to NSGP, but this feels inadequate.

Many people in the SC forums agree that Lily deserves a condemnation for their work, but that resolution has to be well-written to fully merit their contributions.

[Fahran]

While Lily may well be worthy of a Condemnation,

I was under the impression that you flat-out opposed a condemnation for tag-raiding. I believe that was the objection the last time a condemnation popped up. Has your position changed since then? Or have the more recent raids, in your opinion, been deserving of a condemnation?