Maybe you are. Most aren’t. Most revolutions are bloody and dirty and filled with unjustifiable war crimes, and that will always be the case.
Just keep that in mind next time you’re day dreaming.
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by Adamede » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:19 am
by Adamede » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:21 am
by Galloism » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:23 am
Celritannia wrote:
Considering that blowing up Congress would be an act of terrorism, it could well be an act of sedition along with terrorism depending on the prosecution.
But that is such an extreme example, compared to the sieging of Capitol Hill, that it was an actual act of Sedition.
by Galloism » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:24 am
Adamede wrote:Nakena wrote:
The capitol storm was a good example of what a revolution in the US would look like tbh.
Far too little gunfire, bombings, and lynching for that to be the case.
Funny enough the pictures that did come out of the riots remind me of all those Renaissance and Enlightenment era paintings of the sack of Rome by the Barbarian tribes.
by Adamede » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:25 am
Celritannia wrote:Adamede wrote:I’m just putting Gallo’s “extreme” hypotheticals into context. Thing is they not that extreme at all.
They’re not telling you to sympathize with the rioters, they’re trying to explain why they did what they did, that’s because in their minds they think that they are the good guys. Evidence doesn’t fucking matter when it comes to that.
You however are moral grand standing for no reason.
What they think does not matter. It's an extreme act of violence that should not occur.
by Adamede » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:26 am
Galloism wrote:Adamede wrote:Far too little gunfire, bombings, and lynching for that to be the case.
Funny enough the pictures that did come out of the riots remind me of all those Renaissance and Enlightenment era paintings of the sack of Rome by the Barbarian tribes.
It's the buffalo guy. His outfit skews the whole picture.
by Kanaia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:32 am
Galloism wrote:Celritannia wrote:
Considering that blowing up Congress would be an act of terrorism, it could well be an act of sedition along with terrorism depending on the prosecution.
But that is such an extreme example, compared to the sieging of Capitol Hill, that it was an actual act of Sedition.
And the point being made is that the motivation, which you've been relentlessly focusing on, is barely relevant to whether or not the act itself is sedition. But you keep coming back to pure motivations instead of the nature of the act.
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they hate gun control. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think Donald Trump won illegitimately in 2016. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think Joe Biden won illegitimately in 2016. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they hate the amount of police use of force. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think the government is controlled by lizard people and they don't want to answer to it anymore. Is this sedition?
[violet] wrote:Never underestimate the ability of admin to do nothing.
by Galloism » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:35 am
Kanaia wrote:Galloism wrote:And the point being made is that the motivation, which you've been relentlessly focusing on, is barely relevant to whether or not the act itself is sedition. But you keep coming back to pure motivations instead of the nature of the act.
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they hate gun control. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think Donald Trump won illegitimately in 2016. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think Joe Biden won illegitimately in 2016. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they hate the amount of police use of force. Is this sedition?
A group seizes national territory, declares independence from the central government as an autonomous zone, sets up a national border, and puts armed checkpoints on said border, blocking police from entering and checking IDs before they allow people to pass because they think the government is controlled by lizard people and they don't want to answer to it anymore. Is this sedition?
I don't understand why you can't grasp the difference between illegally occupying a random spot(s) in the US, and illegally occupying the US Capitol Building.
by Senkaku » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:37 am
Page wrote:
For real though, I truly don't know whether I should see her as a hostage or a willing participant.
by The Black Forrest » Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:49 am
Page wrote:The Black Forrest wrote:Melania trump complains.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/11/politics ... index.html
My sympathy for her continues to dissolve.
In my revolutionary fantasies, she's allowed to keep a few hundred thousand of the Trump fortune and take Baron and go live a quiet life somewhere while Don, Jr., Eric, and Ivanka are sent to labor camps but now I'm leaning more toward she doesn't get to keep any of the money.
(I'm being like 40% serious)
For real though, I truly don't know whether I should see her as a hostage or a willing participant.
by Page » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:05 am
by Celritannia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:06 am
Galloism wrote:Kanaia wrote:I don't understand why you can't grasp the difference between illegally occupying a random spot(s) in the US, and illegally occupying the US Capitol Building.
Oh there is, but they are both part of an escalating pattern of violence. They both meet the definition of sedition, but one of sedition with secessionist underpinnings, while the other is sedition and attempted coup.
Naturally, an attempted coup is a worse form of sedition than just sedition with secessionist underpinnings.
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by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:07 am
Page wrote:It's truly astounding that Trump apparently wants Giuliani to represent him at the new impeachment trial, how has Trump not cut him loose? Overturning the election was an impossible task, the best lawyer in the world would have failed, but Giuliani was a terrible lawyer even relative to the ridiculous thing he was trying to accomplish. He literally forgot what one of his lawsuits was even about and argued about a separate issue before a judge.
Why would Trump keep him? It seems unlikely that Trump has any sense of loyalty, so what does that leave? The delusion that Giuliani is actually doing a good job? Even Ted Bundy representing himself had a better sense of how well his defense was going.
by Celritannia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:07 am
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by Ifreann » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:09 am
Page wrote:It's truly astounding that Trump apparently wants Giuliani to represent him at the new impeachment trial, how has Trump not cut him loose? Overturning the election was an impossible task, the best lawyer in the world would have failed, but Giuliani was a terrible lawyer even relative to the ridiculous thing he was trying to accomplish. He literally forgot what one of his lawsuits was even about and argued about a separate issue before a judge.
Why would Trump keep him? It seems unlikely that Trump has any sense of loyalty, so what does that leave? The delusion that Giuliani is actually doing a good job? Even Ted Bundy representing himself had a better sense of how well his defense was going.
by Nakena » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:10 am
Page wrote:It's truly astounding that Trump apparently wants Giuliani to represent him at the new impeachment trial, how has Trump not cut him loose? Overturning the election was an impossible task, the best lawyer in the world would have failed, but Giuliani was a terrible lawyer even relative to the ridiculous thing he was trying to accomplish. He literally forgot what one of his lawsuits was even about and argued about a separate issue before a judge.
Why would Trump keep him? It seems unlikely that Trump has any sense of loyalty, so what does that leave? The delusion that Giuliani is actually doing a good job? Even Ted Bundy representing himself had a better sense of how well his defense was going.
by Page » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:10 am
Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Page wrote:It's truly astounding that Trump apparently wants Giuliani to represent him at the new impeachment trial, how has Trump not cut him loose? Overturning the election was an impossible task, the best lawyer in the world would have failed, but Giuliani was a terrible lawyer even relative to the ridiculous thing he was trying to accomplish. He literally forgot what one of his lawsuits was even about and argued about a separate issue before a judge.
Why would Trump keep him? It seems unlikely that Trump has any sense of loyalty, so what does that leave? The delusion that Giuliani is actually doing a good job? Even Ted Bundy representing himself had a better sense of how well his defense was going.
Let Rudy do it, and watch as Trump becomes America's first head of state to be convicted in an impeachment trial.
by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:12 am
Page wrote:Austria-Bohemia-Hungary wrote:Let Rudy do it, and watch as Trump becomes America's first head of state to be convicted in an impeachment trial.
It might actually be possible Rudy sucks so much that he blows the unconditional acquittal Trump would have gotten from every Republican except probably Romney and Murkowski.
by Kexholm Karelia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:21 am
Nakena wrote:Page wrote:It's truly astounding that Trump apparently wants Giuliani to represent him at the new impeachment trial, how has Trump not cut him loose? Overturning the election was an impossible task, the best lawyer in the world would have failed, but Giuliani was a terrible lawyer even relative to the ridiculous thing he was trying to accomplish. He literally forgot what one of his lawsuits was even about and argued about a separate issue before a judge.
Why would Trump keep him? It seems unlikely that Trump has any sense of loyalty, so what does that leave? The delusion that Giuliani is actually doing a good job? Even Ted Bundy representing himself had a better sense of how well his defense was going.
They do have a special relationship.
by Galloism » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:27 am
Celritannia wrote:Galloism wrote:Oh there is, but they are both part of an escalating pattern of violence. They both meet the definition of sedition, but one of sedition with secessionist underpinnings, while the other is sedition and attempted coup.
Naturally, an attempted coup is a worse form of sedition than just sedition with secessionist underpinnings.
This extreme centrist view point is dangerous.
by Kexholm Karelia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:31 am
Celritannia wrote:Galloism wrote:Oh there is, but they are both part of an escalating pattern of violence. They both meet the definition of sedition, but one of sedition with secessionist underpinnings, while the other is sedition and attempted coup.
Naturally, an attempted coup is a worse form of sedition than just sedition with secessionist underpinnings.
This extreme centrist view point is dangerous.
by Celritannia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:35 am
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by Celritannia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:36 am
Galloism wrote:Celritannia wrote:
This extreme centrist view point is dangerous.
It's really not an "extreme centrist view point". It's left wing viewpoint encouraging reflection. Escalating the violence the way we have all summer, and it being played on TV all summer, has had effect on the right wing as well. They now see that violence works because we showed them it works.
And Trump playing into that as well has certainly not helped matters (to say the absolute fucking least).
We're in for a rough time if we can't get together and stand down a bit.
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by Galloism » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:37 am
Celritannia wrote:Galloism wrote:It's really not an "extreme centrist view point". It's left wing viewpoint encouraging reflection. Escalating the violence the way we have all summer, and it being played on TV all summer, has had effect on the right wing as well. They now see that violence works because we showed them it works.
And Trump playing into that as well has certainly not helped matters (to say the absolute fucking least).
We're in for a rough time if we can't get together and stand down a bit.
One side has been ignored for years over police brutality.
The other thinks there was voter fraud.
by Celritannia » Mon Jan 11, 2021 11:38 am
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