China posts sick image mocking ADF

[Adamede]

I’m well aware. Doesn’t change the modern situation any.

The past does not affect the future? The structures of today are not built on the foundations of the past? I'd greatly disagree.

Now you’re putting words in my mouth, have you run out of arguments?

Of course the present is built off the past, and in the past is the fact that the RoC underwent a period of democraticization and liberalization that the PRC has not under gone, turning the RoC into a democratic state while the PRC is effectively a one party dictatorship/police state.

Regardless this ain’t really what the thread is about.

[An-Tanwir]

And yet the Kuomintang was the armed nationalist wing during the Chinese Civil War, and Taiwan was a military dictatorship led by a nationalist with a cult of personality 1987. Have you heard of the Shanghai Massacre?

That was, for a majority, because of the pseudo-fascist Chiang Kai-shek. Did the RoC itself still commit atrocities? Sure. But the RoC/Taiwan is starting to clean up its act where the PRC has not. One might even argue the PRC is currently a military dictatorship led by a nationalist with a cult of personality, and almost certainly was under Mao.

Mao definitely had a personality cult, that tends to naturally develop whenever a leader brings people out of a great crisis period. Kim Il Sung, Franklin Roosevelt, Joseph Stalin, Mao Zedong, Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, all of these people had great popular support and were seen as "saviors" of the country. Obviously some were worse than others, but there's typically little government enforcement of personality cults, as the angry masses do that for you of their own volition.

[Mathuvan Union]

No, in this single situation. the ADF is not to blame for this situation and they have not done anything wrong in this situation.
the ADF has caused the deaths of dozens of civilians within Afghanistan and surrounding areas, but is Australia the only to do that? No.

What situation are you talking about? Bc killing three dozen civilians is definitely "doing the wrong thing in this situation".

Unless you're talking about the situation with china, which the ADF isn't even involved in. iirc from op's post, this is a twitter fight between a CCP propagandist and an Australian politician.

I'm talking about what the fucking thread is about. In the situation, a photo of an ADF Soldier killing afghani civilians, which did not happen as depicted. Scott Morrison is the fucking Prime Minister not a politician. What I am saying, and I am saying this as an Australia, Australia is not bad in this dispute of propaganda.

[Glorious Hong Kong]

Anti-CCP sentiment is not Sinophobia. Your race card is getting worn out rather quickly.

OP literally said "Shame, a core component of traditional Chinese culture, doesn't seem to register in the minds of these Chinese"

"I stand shoulder to shoulder with Australia and the Western world. CCP delenda est."

Hard to separate the anti-CCP sentiment from the blatant East vs West sinophobia.

Here's what I actually wrote:

Shame, a core component of traditional Chinese culture, doesn't seem to register in the minds of these Chinese, absolutist, communists who continue to govern China through fear.

You could try actually quoting the entire sentence instead of greenwalding (maliciously quote-mining in an attempt to twist a person's words) the OP. And the West IS under attack. The whole world is under attack from the CCP. Substitute the CCP with a democratic government and I will go from anti-China to pro-China in a heartbeat. And I'm ethnically Chinese and resent the Chinese communist occupation of Hong Kong, where I grew up.

EDIT: Looks like someone pointed out the out-of-context quote-mining and you've admitted your mistake. My bad. But my point about the CCP altering my opinion of China stands. I explicitly referred to the communist regime in the OP and not "all communists" or "all Chinese" to let the mods know I wasn't trolling.

The full quote is actually "Shame, a core component of traditional Chinese culture, doesn't seem to register in the minds of these Chinese, absolutist, communists who continue to govern China through fear."

He referred to the communists, not the Chinese. Don't intentionally cut quotes out of context to play the race card, thank you.


I stand corrected by the original argument.

The bad part wasn't "the Chinese", it was saying "Shame, a core component of traditional Chinese culture" and then proceeding to culturesplain about how Chinese "absolutist" communists aren't following their own traditions. It reeks of mockery and orientalism.

It just needs to throw in some reference to dragons or a mandate of heaven and it'll reach full white man's burden tier.

I was going to mention the Mandate of Heaven in relation to the CCP's right to govern and the PRC's legitimacy as a communist, one-party state. This is analogous to the divine right of kings that once held sway in absolutist Europe several hundred years ago. Nothing "Orientalist" about that.

I'm saying that the CCP i.e. Chinese absolutist communists have completely upended and defiled centuries of Chinese tradition with their CuLtUrAl ReVoLuTiOn and the slow-motion erasure of local dialects in favor of Mandarin. To this day, the communist regime has continued to appropriate Chinese culture and has taken it upon itself to determine what is and isn't Chinese and telling overseas Chinese like me how to think and feel and that I should betray my passport country (Malaysia) and be loyal to the PRC and only the PRC or I'm a traitor to the Chinese race. That is the real Sinophobia. Communism is tantamount to cultural genocide in any country it is practiced in. I was defending Chinese culture from communist attempts to erase or otherwise appropriate it, not "mocking" Chinese culture.

But even if I was criticizing Chinese culture, or any other culture, that still doesn't make what I said racist or "Sinophobic". If I said that guilt is central to Western culture, would that make me Europhobic and Occidentalist? Am I culturesplaining Western culture to "poor, oppressed, white people" in need of Asian wisdom and guidance? Is it Americophobic to point out how certain, ingrained aspects of American culture contributed to the uncontrolled spread of the coronavirus pandemic and the record number of cases and deaths of any country in the world and compare it unfavorably to East Asian countries that have fared much better? Am I inviting racism, violence, and discrimination against Americans living abroad? Is calling the coronavirus the Trump virus or the USA virus racist against Americans and Trump supporters? I think not.

I do genuinely believe that some cultures are, on average, better than others, and this is a purely relative rather than absolute observation. See my views on Western vs Arab/Islamic culture. I consider Hong Kong culture to be marginally superior to even the advanced societies of the United States and Japan and a perfect synthesis of East and West despite the PRC's wholehearted attempts to annihilate it from living memory. I also believe cultures are capable of evolving and improving with time, that certain cultures can overtake others at different points in time, and that nothing is truly fixed or innate.

Finally, Orientalism is a cringe woke propaganda term invented by a late Palestinian academic that has been used to stifle critical discussion of "the Orient", particularly Arab and Islamic culture, as you have just done. Thank you, Edward Said, for the woke BS you've managed to unleash from beyond the grave.

Just to keep the thread on topic per NVI's wishes, Zhao Lijian's tweet sounds a lot like blood libel to me. This time aimed at gentiles. China is demonizing Australia for having the audacity to publicize the war crimes of its own soldiers and attempt to hold them accountable, unlike a certain country north of Hong Kong whose leaders have zero understanding of the words "we're sorry".

[An-Tanwir]

The past does not affect the future? The structures of today are not built on the foundations of the past? I'd greatly disagree.

Now you’re putting words in my mouth, have you run out of arguments?

Of course the present is built off the past, and in the past is the fact that the RoC underwent a period of democraticization and liberalization that the PRC has not under gone, turning the RoC into a democratic state while the PRC is effectively a one party dictatorship/police state.

Regardless this ain’t really what the thread is about.

The reason the state no longer needs to use the brutal authoritarian methods of dictatorship is that they have fully rebuilt society in their image, the ideology is naturally reproducing itself, and dissidents are no longer powerful enough to overthrow the government. The "liberalization" of the RoC is not as a result of a popular movement towards democracy nor a change of heart in the dictators; rather it is the result of the success of that dictatorship.

[Major-Tom]

Yay, new China thread! How many of these threads have been created so far?

For real, I dunno what I hate more, China or all the god-damn single-issue threads being pumped out on a bi-daily basis with no other purpose but to reinforce the same point.

[Adamede]

Now you’re putting words in my mouth, have you run out of arguments?

Of course the present is built off the past, and in the past is the fact that the RoC underwent a period of democraticization and liberalization that the PRC has not under gone, turning the RoC into a democratic state while the PRC is effectively a one party dictatorship/police state.

Regardless this ain’t really what the thread is about.

The reason the state no longer needs to use the brutal authoritarian methods of dictatorship is that they have fully rebuilt society in their image, the ideology is naturally reproducing itself, and dissidents are no longer powerful enough to overthrow the government. The "liberalization" of the RoC is not as a result of a popular movement towards democracy nor a change of heart in the dictators; rather it is the result of the success of that dictatorship.

So when will the PRC have that same level of success then? Because if that’s the metric, they’re a long way off.

[An-Tanwir]

What situation are you talking about? Bc killing three dozen civilians is definitely "doing the wrong thing in this situation".

Unless you're talking about the situation with china, which the ADF isn't even involved in. iirc from op's post, this is a twitter fight between a CCP propagandist and an Australian politician.

I'm talking about what the fucking thread is about. In the situation, a photo of an ADF Soldier killing afghani civilians, which did not happen as depicted. Scott Morrison is the fucking Prime Minister not a politician. What I am saying, and I am saying this as an Australia, Australia is not bad in this dispute of propaganda.

Of course it didnt happen as depicted, its a propaganda image. It conveys emotions rather than data.

And if we're talking solely about the twitter fight between the prime minister of Australia and a CCP propagandist, I'll place myself in the "holy shit, go outside" camp.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

Now you’re putting words in my mouth, have you run out of arguments?

Of course the present is built off the past, and in the past is the fact that the RoC underwent a period of democraticization and liberalization that the PRC has not under gone, turning the RoC into a democratic state while the PRC is effectively a one party dictatorship/police state.

Regardless this ain’t really what the thread is about.

The reason the state no longer needs to use the brutal authoritarian methods of dictatorship is that they have fully rebuilt society in their image, the ideology is naturally reproducing itself, and dissidents are no longer powerful enough to overthrow the government. The "liberalization" of the RoC is not as a result of a popular movement towards democracy nor a change of heart in the dictators; rather it is the result of the success of that dictatorship.

If we apply this logic to the mainland, what does that say about their regime? Have they been unsuccessful in forcing their ideology on the population?

[An-Tanwir]

The reason the state no longer needs to use the brutal authoritarian methods of dictatorship is that they have fully rebuilt society in their image, the ideology is naturally reproducing itself, and dissidents are no longer powerful enough to overthrow the government. The "liberalization" of the RoC is not as a result of a popular movement towards democracy nor a change of heart in the dictators; rather it is the result of the success of that dictatorship.

So when will the PRC have that same level of success then? Because if that’s the metric, they’re a long way off.

PRC was in a state of revolutionary chaos during the cultural revolution and after the death of Mao, a fascist dictatorship of the Deng Xiaoping clique was instituted. Mao never achieved the goal of the worker's state and the fascists are still in the process of dismantling what the Chinese masses built, they havent even begun building their own structures.

[Mathuvan Union]

I'm talking about what the fucking thread is about. In the situation, a photo of an ADF Soldier killing afghani civilians, which did not happen as depicted. Scott Morrison is the fucking Prime Minister not a politician. What I am saying, and I am saying this as an Australia, Australia is not bad in this dispute of propaganda.

Of course it didnt happen as depicted, its a propaganda image. It conveys emotions rather than data.

And if we're talking solely about the twitter fight between the prime minister of Australia and a CCP propagandist, I'll place myself in the "holy shit, go outside" camp.

it's come to more than a fucking twitter fight when China is accusing Australia of war crimes they haven't committed. By that standard, why aren't Australian officials being executed for said crimes?

[Cordel One]

Two points of order:

1) A Chinese official posted this, not China itself. That being said, of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia.

2) China still isn't communist.

[Mathuvan Union]

Point of order: A Chinese official posted this, not China itself. That being said, of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia.

I would see it as acceptable to refer to it as china being the official is a senior official within the chinese government.

[An-Tanwir]

The reason the state no longer needs to use the brutal authoritarian methods of dictatorship is that they have fully rebuilt society in their image, the ideology is naturally reproducing itself, and dissidents are no longer powerful enough to overthrow the government. The "liberalization" of the RoC is not as a result of a popular movement towards democracy nor a change of heart in the dictators; rather it is the result of the success of that dictatorship.

If we apply this logic to the mainland, what does that say about their regime? Have they been unsuccessful in forcing their ideology on the population?

Yes, as of now the remnants of socialism, and the mass movements that built it, have not been eradicated by the capitalist roaders.

[Eukaryotic Cells]

Point of order: A Chinese official posted this, not China itself. That being said, of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia.

Was it meant to be taken as a real picture, or just as a way to mock the ADF over this warcrime scandal?

It reminds me of the old "And you are hanging blacks" line from the Soviets. A criticism based in reality, which is used to deflect from criticism of China's human rights record.

[Cordel One]

Point of order: A Chinese official posted this, not China itself. That being said, of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia.

Was it meant to be taken as a real picture, or just as a way to mock the ADF over this warcrime scandal?

It reminds me of the old "And you are hanging blacks" line from the Soviets. A criticism based in reality, which is used to deflect from criticism of China's human rights record.

It is kinda hypocritical.

[Rusozak]

Two points of order:

1) A Chinese official posted this, not China itself. That being said, of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia.

2) China still isn't communist.

1) Because China has beef with Australia so their Fuhrer probably demanded something specific to Australia.

2) Is that important to the situation somehow?

[Cordel One]

2) Is that important to the situation somehow?

GHk seems to think it is.

[An-Tanwir]

Of course it didnt happen as depicted, its a propaganda image. It conveys emotions rather than data.

And if we're talking solely about the twitter fight between the prime minister of Australia and a CCP propagandist, I'll place myself in the "holy shit, go outside" camp.

it's come to more than a fucking twitter fight when China is accusing Australia of war crimes they haven't committed.

The ADF killed 36 civilians, including children. Even australia admits that. Tbh i thought denying crimes the government admits was an american thing, but apparently not.

By that standard, why aren't Australian officials being executed for said crimes?

Because in order to enforce law, including military law, people genuinely interested in justice must wield power. The people in power today are not interested in justice.

[Devionsa]

drivel

Cringe.

[An-Tanwir]

of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia

its a real atrocity that actually happened, just dramatized. You wouldn't say World War Two didn't happen because the movies made about it aren't accurate, and the same applies here.

[Cordel One]

of all the atrocities out there why did this dude post a fake one? Abu Ghraib would be better, though that wasn't Australia

its a real atrocity that actually happened, just dramatized. You wouldn't say World War Two didn't happen because the movies made about it aren't accurate, and the same applies here.

You mean Hitler wasn't shot to death in an exploding movie theater?

[Punished UMN]

Smh, China should be ashamed of this humanizing propaganda of war criminals. Actual Australian criminals don't even try to cover up their atrocities.

[Mathuvan Union]

it's come to more than a fucking twitter fight when China is accusing Australia of war crimes they haven't committed.

The ADF killed 36 civilians, including children. Even australia admits that. Tbh i thought denying crimes the government admits was an american thing, but apparently not.

By that standard, why aren't Australian officials being executed for said crimes?

Because in order to enforce law, including military law, people genuinely interested in justice must wield power. The people in power today are not interested in justice.

I legit have conceded australia has committed war crimes, but in this individual situation, that, you, talking with your codswallop, are drawing away from consistently, they have not. The image portrayed an Australian soldier killing a civilian; that has not occured in such manner nor circumstance.

[An-Tanwir]

Finally, Orientalism is a cringe woke propaganda term invented by a late Palestinian academic that has been used to stifle critical discussion of "the Orient", particularly Arab and Islamic culture, as you have just done.

On-par take with "Trotsky invented the concept of racism to undermine America". Please pick up some books on Orientalism, its a very complex phenomenon standing at the crossroads of racism, sexism, and classism.

Also, why'd you bring up the nationality of the inventor of the term? Why did you refer to them as "a Palestinian", and not their name? What point are you trying to make? These questions are rhetorical of course, I'm well aware of what you're doing, and I'd get BOS'd if I told you exactly how I feel about this message. Just imagine that I'm saying some insanely hurtful things.