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by Rio Cana » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:15 pm
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:21 pm
The Restored Danelaw wrote:Senkaku wrote:Oh, I know. I just also don't understand why at a certain point, you wouldn't just... leave, or at least give up on trying to control stuff outside your borders. The Russians seem willing to protect them from outright invasion at least, at a certain point when you're the size of Armenia facing down the Turkish colossus you should maybe question if this isn't a futile endeavor and it might not be a better idea to hunker down and stock up on Russian missiles until some part of the equation changes.
Frankly because there's no insurance Russia will help them if it's willing to adhere to unjust laws not to involve itself in Artsakh already. As nobody really came to their aid against a genocidal enemy that has repeatedly called for their extermination simply because a land historically and demographically Armenian was unilaterally "granted" to Baku, there is no guarantee anyone will when Turks come to just, you know, finish the job. After all, it is just some fool thing in the Caucasus, what's more important? Some Armenians who can cut their losses and just, go live somewhere else (or more accurately be killed by a genocidal enemy) or avoiding WWIII?
by Senkaku » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:32 pm
Novus America wrote:The Restored Danelaw wrote:Frankly because there's no insurance Russia will help them if it's willing to adhere to unjust laws not to involve itself in Artsakh already. As nobody really came to their aid against a genocidal enemy that has repeatedly called for their extermination simply because a land historically and demographically Armenian was unilaterally "granted" to Baku, there is no guarantee anyone will when Turks come to just, you know, finish the job. After all, it is just some fool thing in the Caucasus, what's more important? Some Armenians who can cut their losses and just, go live somewhere else (or more accurately be killed by a genocidal enemy) or avoiding WWIII?
Of course nobody can trust Russia, (it is foolish to trust any other country completely and Putin will gladly toss you under you the bus for some other gain) but they have no choice. Sure it is not certain Russia will uphold the CSTO but it is likely they would, as accommodating towards Turkey Putin often is still there is a point to far were Russia would have to be respond or be shown to be a complete paper tiger. Russia cares enough about its image that it would very likely respond to an attack on what remains of Armenia in its rump state but internationally recognized borders.
But I am sure many more Armenians will flee, many already have. Armenia is a dying country.
But still many people will want to hold out as long as they can. Some people care more about their country than their life, or else it would not exist. If everyone fled when the going got tough, few countries would last long.
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:34 pm
Vapormancer wrote:Senkaku wrote:You expect any country to adhere to the "spirit" of an international defense treaty, rather than just the actual letter of the treaty agreement, when deciding whether or not go to war...? You do realize negotiations on that type of thing take so long because you have to expect people will only adhere to the letter of it, not the "spirit," right? That's... basically why diplomatic corps exist...
I thought the Diplomatic Corps existed to sabotage international interest and betray our allies or is that just a State Department matter? :^)
by Senkaku » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:36 pm
Vapormancer wrote:Senkaku wrote:You expect any country to adhere to the "spirit" of an international defense treaty, rather than just the actual letter of the treaty agreement, when deciding whether or not go to war...? You do realize negotiations on that type of thing take so long because you have to expect people will only adhere to the letter of it, not the "spirit," right? That's... basically why diplomatic corps exist...
I thought the Diplomatic Corps existed to sabotage international interest and betray our allies or is that just a State Department matter? :^)
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:44 pm
Albionist Great Britain wrote:The Huskar Social Union wrote:BBC has a map of how the peace treaty will supposedly be implemented
Fuck. That map is absolutely vile.
by Vapormancer » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:45 pm
Senkaku wrote:Vapormancer wrote:
I thought the Diplomatic Corps existed to sabotage international interest and betray our allies or is that just a State Department matter? :^)
Negotiating treaties with mealy-mouthed clauses so we don't necessarily have to do anything we don't want to (here's looking at you, Chiang), stamping visas and helping hungover college kids who lost their passports during their summer hiking through the remote mountains of wherever, and running cover for the CIA are all perfectly valid functions of government
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 12:56 pm
Senkaku wrote:Novus America wrote:
Of course nobody can trust Russia, (it is foolish to trust any other country completely and Putin will gladly toss you under you the bus for some other gain) but they have no choice. Sure it is not certain Russia will uphold the CSTO but it is likely they would, as accommodating towards Turkey Putin often is still there is a point to far were Russia would have to be respond or be shown to be a complete paper tiger. Russia cares enough about its image that it would very likely respond to an attack on what remains of Armenia in its rump state but internationally recognized borders.
But I am sure many more Armenians will flee, many already have. Armenia is a dying country.
But still many people will want to hold out as long as they can. Some people care more about their country than their life, or else it would not exist. If everyone fled when the going got tough, few countries would last long.
Maybe they can get Putin to send some totally volunteer emigrant settlers and Kaliningrad/Crimea themselves. Probably a better option than getting ground down and thrown into history's graveyard of nations by the Turks over the next century
Maybe they should've considered this before they overextended themselves in the last war-- it's not like no one knew Azerbaijan had oil money and an affinity with the Turks. Now they're up shit creek without a paddle, and have to be dependent on the warmth and kindness of Moscow to survive or hope to hold any of their remaining territory in the disputed area? I mean jesus
by Vapormancer » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:00 pm
Novus America wrote:Senkaku wrote:Maybe they can get Putin to send some totally volunteer emigrant settlers and Kaliningrad/Crimea themselves. Probably a better option than getting ground down and thrown into history's graveyard of nations by the Turks over the next century
Maybe they should've considered this before they overextended themselves in the last war-- it's not like no one knew Azerbaijan had oil money and an affinity with the Turks. Now they're up shit creek without a paddle, and have to be dependent on the warmth and kindness of Moscow to survive or hope to hold any of their remaining territory in the disputed area? I mean jesus
Actually and interesting proposal. If Armenia joined the Russian federation they would get some degree of greater protection, at the cost of much of their sovereignty and democracy.
But they is probably the fate of many a small country in the coming decades.
Welcome back to the pre WWII multipolar world. Kill or be killed, join or die, small countries must becoming protectorates less the be outright invaded or carved up.
That is the scary thing here. Azerbaijan was angry with the status quo, they changed it by gave more men, money and weapons, and nobody cares. Plenty of other countries probably saw this and are now thinking just how much they can take by force.
Anyone unhappy with the current borders can change it, if they have the force to do it.
Before there were some, albeit inconsistent norms that had limited the number of full out wars like this.
Those norms are dead or dying.
We better get ready. Turn ourselves into a missile lined ship surrounded fortress nobody wants to fuck with again.
But we have the resource and geography to do so. Armenia does not.
They have to decide whose colony or protectorate they will be.
And their choices are Russia, Turkey, or Azerbaijan. Russia is obviously the least bad of those choices for them, as bad as it might be.
by Saiwania » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:59 pm
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 3:19 pm
Saiwania wrote:It is with great disappointment that it seems to be that the war has ended with an overwhelming victory for Azerbaijan.
Now is perhaps the time for Armenia to do as Germany once did after WWI if it can: build up the industry and military, prepare for the next war.
by Shofercia » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:22 pm
Vapormancer wrote:Shofercia wrote:
Why do you think the Russian Peacekeepers are there? To defend the people. Russia stayed neutral in the war, and that was a failure, but Russia's recent Peace Deal prevented the Genocide of Astarkh. Let's not lose sight of that.
Genocide! I've never heard such a good joke. Next you'll tell me the Russians "genocided" the Germans with that logic. Tell me, is population relocation genocide? If so, when do we haul Russian WW2 veterans before the Hague?
Novus America wrote:That is the scary thing here. Azerbaijan was angry with the status quo, they changed it by having more men, money and weapons, and nobody cares. Plenty of other countries probably saw this and are now thinking just how much they can take by force. Starting wars you can win means big rewards. Anyone unhappy with the current borders can change it, if they have the force to do it.
by Senkaku » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:40 pm
Novus America wrote:Anyone unhappy with the current borders can change it, if they have the force to do it.
by Novus America » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:55 pm
Senkaku wrote:Novus America wrote:Anyone unhappy with the current borders can change it, if they have the force to do it.
Well, the problem Armenia had is that Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh/whatever-the-fuck you want to call is really that it wasn't technically part of their current borders. It's as though Israel were trying to pry the West Bank away from a stronger neighbor-- they hadn't annexed it, and if they had it wouldn't have been recognized. It's just an area they managed to dislodge and cast into dispute, not an area they consolidated. If Yerevan had gotten the world to recognize its sovereignty over the region, maybe the Russians would have intervened when Azerbaijan came back for round two-- but Russia has made clear it would only do that if Armenia proper were to be attacked.
If the Armenians can come up with a game-changing military technology that gives them the upper hand in a future round three (as it seems Azerbaijan had this time with those drones of theirs that have gotten so much press), perhaps they'll be able to make up for their otherwise diminishing strength. Otherwise, yeah, their best bet is to hold on to Russia for dear life.
As for the whole Festung Amerika nonsense, I have some doubts that that's viable any more in the globalized world and in the Missile Age.
by -Ocelot- » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:56 am
Shofercia wrote:-Ocelot- wrote:
Isn't that good? No western imperialism and all? Besides, Armenia has their Russian orthodox brothers to help them.
Oh wait Russia actually sided with Turkey/Azerbaijan. What a shocker.
Russia remained neutral, whereas you're making it look like Russia actively supported one side, which is total bullshit.
by Borderlands of Rojava » Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:58 am
by Vapormancer » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:06 am
Shofercia wrote:Vapormancer wrote:
Genocide! I've never heard such a good joke. Next you'll tell me the Russians "genocided" the Germans with that logic. Tell me, is population relocation genocide? If so, when do we haul Russian WW2 veterans before the Hague?
In order to have population relocation, you need a corridor of escape. Population doesn't rematerialize in Point B from Point A, nor does population get beamed out by Scotty; population must actually travel from Point A to Point B, and in order to do so, they need a way, a path, a road, to get from Point A to Point B. Was there a Corridor of Escape for the Armenian civilians prior to the Russian Sponsored Peace? If so, I'll admit that I was wrong. If not, you won't admit that you were wrong.
by Vapormancer » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:07 am
Borderlands of Rojava wrote:One day the world will regret aiding in Turkish aggression in the Middle East. But by then it'll be too late to stop it.
by Deacarsia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:10 am
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:04 am
Vapormancer wrote:Shofercia wrote:
Why do you think the Russian Peacekeepers are there? To defend the people. Russia stayed neutral in the war, and that was a failure, but Russia's recent Peace Deal prevented the Genocide of Astarkh. Let's not lose sight of that.
Genocide! I've never heard such a good joke. Next you'll tell me the Russians "genocided" the Germans with that logic. Tell me, is population relocation genocide? If so, when do we haul Russian WW2 veterans before the Hague?
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:05 am
Tekke wrote:Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:When the Armenian government apologized for the persecution of the Turkish people.We stand shoulder to shoulder against fascism
Mostly Kurdish people were being massacred by the Armenians since the Kurdish settlements were closer to the Armenians. But yeah, you're right.
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:34 am
Vapormancer wrote:Shofercia wrote:
In order to have population relocation, you need a corridor of escape. Population doesn't rematerialize in Point B from Point A, nor does population get beamed out by Scotty; population must actually travel from Point A to Point B, and in order to do so, they need a way, a path, a road, to get from Point A to Point B. Was there a Corridor of Escape for the Armenian civilians prior to the Russian Sponsored Peace? If so, I'll admit that I was wrong. If not, you won't admit that you were wrong.
After having checked the live map and made there were not encirclement that occurred to "block" movement within the last two months, I decided to illustrate this for you specially because I so very much respect your opinion and your positions!
I made a map just for you :^)
Maybe you can point out where the dastardly Azeris were building gas chambers and ovens? Surely you can manage that evidence of genocide.
by Vapormancer » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:42 am
Salus Maior wrote:Vapormancer wrote:
After having checked the live map and made there were not encirclement that occurred to "block" movement within the last two months, I decided to illustrate this for you specially because I so very much respect your opinion and your positions!
I made a map just for you :^)(Image)
Maybe you can point out where the dastardly Azeris were building gas chambers and ovens? Surely you can manage that evidence of genocide.
That map is completely out of date.
Salus Maior wrote:Vapormancer wrote:
Genocide! I've never heard such a good joke. Next you'll tell me the Russians "genocided" the Germans with that logic. Tell me, is population relocation genocide? If so, when do we haul Russian WW2 veterans before the Hague?
It can be, yes.
Also, hi TEM. Did you lose your nation again?
by Salus Maior » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:51 am
Vapormancer wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
That map is completely out of date.
I used a map during the peak of the fighting because I was being generous to Shofercia, if I used a current map, it'd be even easier to his point look ridiculous with the clean lines. Perhaps I should have not been generous!
I felt the name and the /aesthetics/ far more fitting. If population relocation is genocide, then it seems the most easily and time proven method of dealing with the issues of a multicultural place despising each other is genocide. We will have to haul quite a few Western leaders before the Hague and alas, Allied Forces will be Nuremburg'd. Its an absurd position to say the least.
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